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Does Anime degrade women?
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Posted 5/7/13

mhibicke wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:
In a lot of anime girls/women are portrayed as one of two polarities Virgins or Sluts. Asexual 'good girls' or bad little whores. Sometimes they can be both. were the inexperienced virgin is simply a slut-in-waiting. This reflects a desire to control female sexuality either they have to keep it locked away or have to be available to any man that wants it.

That's the part I don't understand - compartmentalizing women as either/or like that, and trying to control their sexuality. Isn't it better when women do who/what they feel like doing (and it's you)? I am just mystified how the virgin/slut paradigm can be the slightest bit appealing. I wouldn't waste my time with either. Motoko Kusinagi on the other hand... instant fetish mode.


Not saying I understand it. but that is what makes one lady in lingerie empowered and another exploited. weather or not it's by their own will and weather or not the observer thinks they'll get anything more unless the lady wills it. Ultimately those who promote this view of sexuality, the most extreme version of which is the idea that a women is consenting to sex unless she's wearing a haz-mat suit, are actually insulting men.

If the only away to prevent rape is to cover every female in several impenetrable layers of cloth. Then that says terrible things about men's altruism and self-control.


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Posted 5/7/13

Des85 wrote:


maffayoo wrote:
i swear every hentai i looked at was rape >.> i feel there bad and pointless in making because rape is a bad thing its a turn off if anything tsun tsun maid is were its at


I could make a long list of hentais that doesn't have rape, but AnimeKami (might) have done that already, and he got reported, so I won't do it :P



ive seen ones were girl likes boy random guy comes out of no were rapes girl its like wtf we had a great story here and now theres rape... wtf is this shit id rather cry myself to sleep then watch this
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Posted 5/7/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
If the only away to prevent rape is to cover every female in several impenetrable layers of cloth. Then that says terrible things about men's altruism and self-control.

If rape were about sex (instead of violence and power), then it wouldn't be so common. From my experience, women are pretty obliging if you just ask nicely.
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Posted 5/7/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
The emboldened part is interesting to me. I think it would be hard to have a real conversation with someone on the topic of people without mentioning half the people in the world.

The other thing I wondered was. how often would male characters fail an inverted bechdel test?

Half the guys in anime Rom coms would fail for sure.


I don't believe there is a duty to portray women in a certain way if that's not the vision the author has for that character. That said I believe most poorly written female characters aren't poorly written because the author planned on them being flat and generic, I believe it's more likely the result of most authors being male and not knowing how to write female characters.

The Bechdel test isn't about measuring whether a character is strong it's about measuring gender bias. Plenty of series can claim to have at least one strong female character (although i'm willing to bet there's going to be at least a 4-1 ratio of strong male to strong female characters in 95% of anime series) while failing the Bechdel test. The issue is that while there may be a strong female character in the series in a lot of cases she's a token minority. While in some series this is a plot point most of the time it comes across as the typical, "oh we want to hit on our periphery demographics so lets throw in a woman/black person/lesbian/jew/etc. so lets toss in Vasquez 2.0 into the mix."

Romance series are a different beast with their own set of issues. Look at pretty much any other genre though, the amount of male characters in a given show who talk about something other than a female character is significantly higher than the amount of female characters who talk about something other than a male character.

Yes there are some strong female characters in anime who aren't solely motivated by a man, the issue with discussing this with guys (and any majority in general) is that guys like to prop up those few characters as if it makes the massive number of female characters who are either living mcguffins, shallow love interests, or are ultimately irrelevant to the plot. Yes guys get stereotyped in anime too, but because most anime is made for men you still get more strong male characters than strong female characters by virtue of being the majority. Now you're not saying that, a lot of other guys do though.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

maffayoo wrote:


Des85 wrote:


maffayoo wrote:
i swear every hentai i looked at was rape >.> i feel there bad and pointless in making because rape is a bad thing its a turn off if anything tsun tsun maid is were its at


I could make a long list of hentais that doesn't have rape, but AnimeKami (might) have done that already, and he got reported, so I won't do it :P



ive seen ones were girl likes boy random guy comes out of no were rapes girl its like wtf we had a great story here and now theres rape... wtf is this shit id rather cry myself to sleep then watch this


usually ends up ntr sir..

btw if no one knows ntr has 3 subcategories

a b c (bad naming to whomever keyed the terms) I won't get into the specifics but ntr has every means of a degraded woman.

EDIT: keikaku dori
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Posted 5/7/13

mhibicke wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:
If the only away to prevent rape is to cover every female in several impenetrable layers of cloth. Then that says terrible things about men's altruism and self-control.

If rape were about sex (instead of violence and power), then it wouldn't be so common. From my experience, women are pretty obliging if you just ask nicely.


The common excuse attempted is 'she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed'. In some cultures they go so far as to require specific (usually quite concealing) outfits or risk being severe social consequences. I say that this speaks much more loudly of the weakness of men than any flaw in the woman.

I think we're in agreement about rape being about power and violence. Arguably that's why certain kinds of porn and hentai pander to the same desire for control. Power and control overlap very nicely.

Anyhow I think we're in agreement. especially on the issue of how great/hot The Major is.

----
As for what turns folk on, it's like haggis. Not everyone likes the same things. There are things that can't be talked explicitly on a PG forum. But some kinds of 'play' involve fantasies and as long as there is real world controls to prevent things from going to far both men and women are capable of having and engaging in fantasies that involve playing at being some sort of victim.

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Posted 5/7/13

AnimeKami wrote:


maffayoo wrote:


Des85 wrote:


maffayoo wrote:
i swear every hentai i looked at was rape >.> i feel there bad and pointless in making because rape is a bad thing its a turn off if anything tsun tsun maid is were its at


I could make a long list of hentais that doesn't have rape, but AnimeKami (might) have done that already, and he got reported, so I won't do it :P



ive seen ones were girl likes boy random guy comes out of no were rapes girl its like wtf we had a great story here and now theres rape... wtf is this shit id rather cry myself to sleep then watch this


usually ends up ntr sir..

btw if no one knows ntr has 3 subcategories

a b c (bad naming to whomever keyed the terms) I won't get into the specifics but ntr has every means of a degraded woman.

EDIT: keikaku dori


at the end of the day we all use it for masturbation material so np aslong as im not watching any form of rape its all good
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Posted 5/7/13

Pomff wrote:


I don't believe there is a duty to portray women in a certain way if that's not the vision the author has for that character. That said I believe most poorly written female characters aren't poorly written because the author planned on them being flat and generic, I believe it's more likely the result of most authors being male and not knowing how to write female characters.


Can't argue with you there. As an aspiring writer myself it's more about, pardon the term artistic vision, than about pandering to someonelse's expectations. That said you're right about the latter situation too.



The Bechdel test isn't about measuring whether a character is strong it's about measuring gender bias. Plenty of series can claim to have at least one strong female character (although i'm willing to bet there's going to be at least a 4-1 ratio of strong male to strong female characters in 95% of anime series) while failing the Bechdel test. The issue is that while there may be a strong female character in the series in a lot of cases she's a token minority. While in some series this is a plot point most of the time it comes across as the typical, "oh we want to hit on our periphery demographics so lets throw in a woman/black person/lesbian/jew/etc. so lets toss in Vasquez 2.0 into the mix."


I get that. but maybe I'm the periphery. I felt that Vasquez and Ripley were awesome characters for the 80's



Romance series are a different beast with their own set of issues. Look at pretty much any other genre though, the amount of male characters in a given show who talk about something other than a female character is significantly higher than the amount of female characters who talk about something other than a male character.


fair enough. Still it was an amusing thought.



Yes there are some strong female characters in anime who aren't solely motivated by a man, the issue with discussing this with guys (and any majority in general) is that guys like to prop up those few characters as if it makes the massive number of female characters who are either living mcguffins, shallow love interests, or are ultimately irrelevant to the plot. Yes guys get stereotyped in anime too, but because most anime is made for men you still get more strong male characters than strong female characters by virtue of being the majority. Now you're not saying that, a lot of other guys do though.


Too be fair the majority problem isn't just about gender. Age is an issue too (or are you as tired as I am with shows were the fate of the world/universe centres around a middle school in Japan?)

And Strong female characters may be rare. especially truly strong and non-shallow ones. However, they are what bring me to the party. and in that regard I find anime does at least somewhat better than most western film and TV (not all, just most)

As a more General Addendum to the Topic at large. Here's my off the cuff list of anime 'girls' who break stereoptype and other unwritten rules in one way or another.

Nyarko from Haiyore Nyarko-san. (of course the idea of HP Lovecraft's insanity causing dark gods as a Moe Girl is already a bit of a rules breaker as it is.)

I was about to mention MHibike's Avatar, Revy and her 'friend' Eda... but the one time they had some downtime together they were talking about ROCK. (still there are an effing ton of kickass female characters in that cast. at least from a Vasquez 2.0 perspective)

The artistically and thematically similar (dark and modern) Jormungand has even a few more.

The already lauded Major Motoko Kusanagi has already had plenty said about her.

The entire premise, cast, plot etc. of Revolutionary Girl Utena revolves around these questions. I find it telling that when Utena finds herself seduced by the villian of the show she literally become more flat and boring, with those around her, in the show, complaining that she's somehow disappointingly become a 'normal girl'.

The Cast of Railgun actually manages to avoid talking about boys a fair amount and to a lessor extent avoids talking about lesbian relationships as well. I think actually... Bingo one show that passes the Bechdel Test. (Damn this is harder than I thought. Food for thought)

Rei Ayanami Might pass... given that she's really just a walking Rorschach blot. full of whatever the viewer brings to the party. ( I prefer to see her in such a light. my favourite fan fics are the one's where she grabs a hold of the reins of her life.)

Is Mikasa from attack on titan. a Female MC? or a love interest? I wonder. She and some of the other members of Eren's class at least pass the 'strong' test. unfortunately we never see them talk at all... (well except Sasha and she only talks about food)

The female protagonist from Corpse Princess/Shikane Hime was fairly empowering. as an added bonus the physics defying skirts of the show never allowed a single panty flash to distract from the important bits like plot and character.

In her own 'bond girl-esque' way and at the other end of the 'fan service' extreme. Viewed without the snowblindness caused by ridiculous amount of upskirtage and utterly uniform choice in underwear, Agent Aika is a very credible Distaff Bond substitute and her Villian was much more fun that Drago from Moonraker.

I'm reaching now... so That's the off the cuff list.





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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13
I'm going to ignore listing all of Hayao Miyazaki's heroines because that feels like cheating.

I'd add Saber from the Fate universe though (at least from what I've seen of her in anime), Fuu from Samurai Champloo, Lain from Serial Experiments Lain, and the whole female cast from Haibane Renmei and NieA Under 7.

Edit:

And Mima Kirigoe from Perfect Blue, and Atsuko Chiba from Paprika, and Chiyoko Fujiwara from Millennium Actress.
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Posted 5/7/13

Insomnist wrote:

I'm going to ignore listing all of Hayao Miyazaki's heroines because that feels like cheating.

I'd add Saber from the Fate universe though (at least from what I've seen of her in anime), Fuu from Samurai Champloo, Lain from Serial Experiments Lain, and the whole female cast from Haibane Renmei and NieA Under 7.

Edit:

And Mima Kirigoe from Perfect Blue, and Atsuko Chiba from Paprika, and Chiyoko Fujiwara from Millennium Actress.


Saber's a good one. Put King Arthur in a dress and I guess she's still going to kick ass.
Don't remember Atsuko from Paprika well enough to say, unless she was the main character. And of course Mima Kirigoe is from the same directior (writer? someone on the creative team. and it shows)

Chiyoko was great but .. her whole path was about chasing a man that wasn't there. Not sure if she'd clear the bar for most feminists.

I think the others are pretty good choices I had lain in mind earlier but forgot her when it game down to listing folk.

It's funny thinking of Haibane Renmei and Railgun. The only time there's multiple girls who talk about something other than boys is in 'all female' environments. Telling in and of itself if you ask me.



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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13
Millennium Actress might've been a stretch, it's been a few years since I saw it.

I remember thinking of it as an idealized pursuit of something, in the sense that the journey has as much worth as the destination. And that striving for an impossible goal is still fine if it improves yourself and the world around you.

To me I kind of internalized it as a window into evolving Japanese culture.

But it has been awhile, so I don't remember many specifics.

Anyway, chronic editing at work again, continuing here:

...and everyone from Puella Magi Madoka Magica. And the female cast from Psycho-Pass.

And I'd give SAO a point for Asuna, but not for anyone else (I have a few bones to pick with Accel World over Kuroyukihime and Chiyuri Kurashima as well - that situation felt like a To Love-Ru style harem after awhile).

I don't have a problem with the cast of The Pet Girl of Sakura Hall either.

And the female cast from Chihayafuru. That's one where the boys are hung up on the girls instead of the reverse.

Summarizing:

For me I guess it boils down to why the character was created. If she's just wish fulfillment, then it'll probably be pretty bad. But if the male and female characters are treated with equal respect by the author, then it usually works out.

In that situation it's entirely possible to have a female character who's an awful role model, but still has reason to exist.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Saber's a good one. Put King Arthur in a dress and I guess she's still going to kick ass.

Chiyoko was great but .. her whole path was about chasing a man that wasn't there. Not sure if she'd clear the bar for most feminists.

It's funny thinking of Haibane Renmei and Railgun. The only time there's multiple girls who talk about something other than boys is in 'all female' environments. Telling in and of itself if you ask me.


Fate/Zero Saber yes, Fate/Stay night anime Saber is pretty sketchy though. I blame Shiro for cockblocking her character in that series.

Now I haven't seen Millennium Actress in years, but if memory serves Chiyoko literally dedicates her life to finding one man. That makes her really iffy to me. I'm not saying that a character can't be motivated by love, I just don't recall Chiyoko having much else there.

Yes, yes it is.


Insomnist wrote:

In that situation it's entirely possible to have a female character who's an awful role model, but still has reason to exist.


This is true, the problem is most authors don't know what to do with female characters because they can only write what they know and they know nothing about being female. All the female characters in School Days are awful, but everyone in the series is awful and it was clearly intentional. Maybe I have too much faith in people who write stories for a living, but I gotta believe that most authors don't set out to write terrible female characters.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

Des85 wrote:


Shrapnel893 wrote:


Hentai with plot >.>


So you're watching the same 5 hentais then :P


A hentai with plot....Does such a thing exist?
Posted 5/7/13
true blue and triangle blue should answer your question.
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Posted 5/7/13
of course hentais have plots
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