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Post Reply NSA Spying
1188 cr points
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21 / F / Iowa
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Posted 8/17/13 , edited 8/17/13
If you're not doing anything wrong then why do you care? Google tracks like everything we look up. Phones track our locations, and the company can even look at our texts. :/ There is no such thing as true "freedom" in the United States. I'm sure this program has caused more good than harm or they wouldn't be doing it would they.

PS Swirly, if the US watches it citizens for the good of its citizens do you think that other countries don't? Considerably democratic countries most likely do the same thing. We don't have true freedom of speech; the military of the US signs all its freedoms away just so it can protect what others have; if you are in a war zone your phone line is probably tapped. If you get on an airplane is that search that they do a breach of your security, to insure the security of others. Unless you are living out in the wilderness with no communication, no connections, then you aren't free in any country.
10577 cr points
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M / chicagoland
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Posted 8/18/13
yes, the TSA is a violation of constitutional rights that were put in place by the founders specifically because england was doing similar things to americans.

so because other countries do, that makes it ok?
USSR did it and im sure russia still uses the KJB for the same thing.


we dont have true freedom of anything in the US, anymore
we are a product, like cattle, and this is just one more step to becoming the slave class to the ultra rich and powerful under the guise of "global economy" and "one world nation".

do you understand what happens when the government controls every aspect of communications and what you are allowed to know, learn, and do? when searching boric acid and boraxo for a school science project can get you noticed by the KGB/NSA? when the government has people so scared they start ratting on each other for google searches of pressure cookers and backpacks?


[quote=neimoller]First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

do you know what that quote is in reference to?
its about how people sat idly by and watched as hitler turned their country into a fascist, warmongering state that hated jews by national law "because it was for the better of the country and its citizens".
the germans trusted hitler to have their best interest in mind just as you are trusting your government to have your best interest in mind.
do we learn nothing form history?
are you aware of the current war shaping up in the middle east between US/allies and russia/china/ME over the US's fear mongering and foreign policy of looting and pillaging? and you are going to trust your government to do whats best with all the control you are giving them over your daily life?
Posted 8/22/13
mhe pretty ovs it happens XD
14153 cr points
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20 / M / NJ, USA
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Posted 8/28/13

swirly_commode wrote:

i just dont understand how people can give away their constitutional rights for anything.
this has nothing to do with breaking laws, its about being treated like a criminal.
a free society doesnt treat its citizens like criminals in the name of safety


Right on.
27455 cr points
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18 / M / Tórshavn
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Posted 9/10/13 , edited 9/10/13


Agree.
People think all of this is conspiracies, but it isn't, it is happening right in front of the people, but no one wants to acknowledge it.. Damn it -.- People have grown ignorant.
20291 cr points
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26 / M / wherever my work...
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Posted 9/11/13
Security as a whole is a double edged sword, especially in this day in age. Sometimes you have to go lengths that people would find "invasive" and "illegal" in order to stop a catastrophe. Most people only see the extremely small amounts of times someone succeeds in committing mass casualties and will never know about the thousands more averted. It's a darker world than people realize, and sometimes that means stooping into people's business.
853 cr points
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23 / F / Florida
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Posted 9/12/13
Yep, just slowly taking our rights away...
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 9/13/13
One necessarily must sacrifice freedom for security. Absolute Freedom and Privacy from the government is nice, but most would rather have Limited Freedom and Limited Privcy from the government so long as they are able to enjoy them unmolested.
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30 / M / "Spaaaaace!"
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Posted 9/13/13

longfenglim wrote:

One necessarily must sacrifice freedom for security. Absolute Freedom and Privacy from the government is nice, but most would rather have Limited Freedom and Limited Privcy from the government so long as they are able to enjoy them unmolested.




I don't always agree with longfenglim. But when I do, he's usually right...
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M / chicagoland
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Posted 9/15/13

longfenglim wrote:

One necessarily must sacrifice freedom for security. Absolute Freedom and Privacy from the government is nice, but most would rather have Limited Freedom and Limited Privcy from the government so long as they are able to enjoy them unmolested.



the right to bear arms is what was intended to keep us safe.
as a free american, you shouldnt need someone watching over your shoulder to keep you safe at night.
the very idea of sacrificing our freedom for a big brother to keep us safe while we sleep at night is the most un-american idea you could ever pose.

our fellow free americans are the people we are supposed to rely on for safety and security, not the government.
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 9/15/13 , edited 9/15/13

swirly_commode wrote:


longfenglim wrote:

One necessarily must sacrifice freedom for security. Absolute Freedom and Privacy from the government is nice, but most would rather have Limited Freedom and Limited Privcy from the government so long as they are able to enjoy them unmolested.



the right to bear arms is what was intended to keep us safe.
as a free american, you shouldnt need someone watching over your shoulder to keep you safe at night.
the very idea of sacrificing our freedom for a big brother to keep us safe while we sleep at night is the most un-american idea you could ever pose.

our fellow free americans are the people we are supposed to rely on for safety and security, not the government.


What is Absolute Freedom but what Thomas Hobbes called 'Bellum omnium contra omnes', that is, that we are in a constant state of terror, fearing for other people to use their liberty to maim us or deprive us of our own. Should we leave ourselves to a state where only the strongest men, the best marksmen, the owner of the best guns, lord over the weak and enforce their will upon all other, else put a bullet between their head, is that, then, a well-ordered society? As Humans, regardless of nationality, we should all learn to recognise that laws cannot exist without the excision of some freedom, the freedom to molest others, to sneak into someone's home and rob them, and that a state of order and law, such as America, is always preferable to a state of disorder and perfect freedom, such as Somolia. However 'un-American' the idea that we should sacrifice our freedom to live in safety, it is a necessity that every government, including the Americans (even prior to this) have recognised. Even Benjamin Franklin, who famously said that 'those who sacrifice essential freedom for temporary security deserve neither', qualified freedom with the word 'essential' and security with the word 'temporary', which is usually lost upon the paraphrasers who mangle this quote (though, like most aphorism, it does not explain why they do not deserve either if they are wise enough to recognise that it is far better to live than to die in a state of freedom).

Our fellow Human are those whom we should fear, not the government, for it is the government that is created for the purpose of our security and safety.
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M / chicagoland
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Posted 9/15/13

longfenglim wrote:


swirly_commode wrote:


longfenglim wrote:

One necessarily must sacrifice freedom for security. Absolute Freedom and Privacy from the government is nice, but most would rather have Limited Freedom and Limited Privcy from the government so long as they are able to enjoy them unmolested.



the right to bear arms is what was intended to keep us safe.
as a free american, you shouldnt need someone watching over your shoulder to keep you safe at night.
the very idea of sacrificing our freedom for a big brother to keep us safe while we sleep at night is the most un-american idea you could ever pose.

our fellow free americans are the people we are supposed to rely on for safety and security, not the government.


What is Absolute Freedom but what Thomas Hobbes called 'Bellum omnium contra omnes', that is, that we are in a constant state of terror, fearing for other people to use their liberty to maim us or deprive us of our own. Should we leave ourselves to a state where only the strongest men, the best marksmen, the owner of the best guns, lord over the weak and enforce their will upon all other, else put a bullet between their head, is that, then, a well-ordered society? As Humans, regardless of nationality, we should all learn to recognise that laws cannot exist without the excision of some freedom, the freedom to molest others, to sneak into someone's home and rob them, and that a state of order and law, such as America, is always preferable to a state of disorder and perfect freedom, such as Somolia. However 'un-American' the idea that we should sacrifice our freedom to live in safety, it is a necessity that every government, including the Americans (even prior to this) have recognised. Even Benjamin Franklin, who famously said that 'those who sacrifice essential freedom for temporary security deserve neither', qualified freedom with the word 'essential' and security with the word 'temporary', which is usually lost upon the paraphrasers who mangle this quote (though, like most aphorism, it does not explain why they do not deserve either if they are wise enough to recognise that it is far better to live than to die in a state of freedom).

Our fellow Human are those whom we should fear, not the government, for it is the government that is created for the purpose of our security and safety.


the government is your fellow humans.
its the very worst of your fellow humans who desire power and riches to control those around them for their own desires.

and you are going to look away from friends and family to hope those corrupt, evil men will protect you?
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M / chicagoland
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Posted 9/15/13
also, from your own post:

Even Benjamin Franklin, who famously said that 'those who sacrifice essential freedom for temporary security deserve neither',


do you understand that statement?
clearly you dont
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 9/15/13

swirly_commode wrote:

also, from your own post:

Even Benjamin Franklin, who famously said that 'those who sacrifice essential freedom for temporary security deserve neither',


do you understand that statement?
clearly you dont


Of course I do, I assume it is you that do not understand that quote. After all, when was privacy an 'essential liberty', when it has only been ruled into existence during the late twentieth century because the Justices supposed that it was implied in the bills of right.
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 9/15/13 , edited 9/15/13

swirly_commode wrote:


the government is your fellow humans.
its the very worst of your fellow humans who desire power and riches to control those around them for their own desires.

and you are going to look away from friends and family to hope those corrupt, evil men will protect you?


No, the government is not human, it is an artificial creation, an institution, an engine, if you will, of laws, justice, and security, that is staffed by my fellow man, but not an actual man in itself.

And this machine has a single function, to maintain harmony and provide security to any society, and every member within that society.


The American government, one of the most ingenious of the many governments that the world has seen, has certain checks upon it within the government itself, what is commonly called 'Checks and Balances', whereby each part of the engine is kept from malfunction by the other.

And even if an individual gear in the whole engine is malfunctioning, by the process of democracy, or else the bureaucracy of our government, functions in such a way that these elements may be replaced.

Thus, while some, such as yourself, extoll distrust of government and preach the doctrine of Total Freedom, sensible people, such as myself, have come to reconcile ourselves to the government, and accept that, however flawed it is, to live within our government, secure, is far better than to live in constant fear and in Liberty.

Thus, do I trust my family or friends more than I trust the government, who, you claim, are all evil people, the most malicious and malevolent elements of society gathered together (source)? I trust my government far more than my own friends and family- for example, if I am robbed, I do not go to my family and my friends for help, especially since they are all potential theives, but to the government, and that special branch of the government dedicated to such affairs, the Police. If someone is murdered, they turn first to family and friends, relations and aquaintences, before they turn to random strangers, for it is amongst those people that the murderer is most likely to lurk. For what reason, then, should I go about trusting people that I know are unreliable and untrustworthy, rather then trust the government which, ideally, should be completely impersonal, and thus, more worthy of trust?

You make frequent recourse to this most praiseworthy thing called 'America', and then treat is as a mirror to your own idea, but 'America' has no meaning but a geographic one if it is deprived of its government, which you claim is evil. A country only exist in so far as it is a geographic area under the same government, and all values associated with that country are, in truth, the values of that government. This cannot be against the American way, because, as we have seen, by virtue of definition, that statement is self-contridictory and illogical, in much the same way the 'Omnipotence paradox' is simply self-contridictory and therefore illogical.
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