Origin, Infinite
samotz 
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Posted 7/6/13
Everything must come from somewhere, so the universe must come from somewhere, the supersphere, but then where does the supersphere come from? There must be an ultimate origin of the universe, but then there is still the perplexing question of where the ultimate origin came from? Where is it at?

Things do not have to come from somewhere. Some things have always existed and always will. But try to imagine such a thing. I fail to do so without a sense of objection, but the sense is vague - I don't understand where it's coming from. It's like a hint to a riddle that I don't get.

Which is right?
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Posted 7/7/13

samotz wrote:

Everything must come from somewhere, so the universe must come from somewhere, the supersphere, but then where does the supersphere come from? There must be an ultimate origin of the universe, but then there is still the perplexing question of where the ultimate origin came from? Where is it at?

Things do not have to come from somewhere. Some things have always existed and always will. But try to imagine such a thing. I fail to do so without a sense of objection, but the sense is vague - I don't understand where it's coming from. It's like a hint to a riddle that I don't get.

Which is right?


If you're truly interested in these types of questions and not content in just waxing poetic, Learn Physics and dive a bit into Quantum Theory.

Here are some great books to get you on your road:

Isaac Newton: The Principia

Richard Feynman: The Character of Physical Law

Max Planck: The origin and Development of the Quantum Theory

Albert Einstein: Relativity the Special and General Theory

Paul Dirac: The principles of Quantum Mechanics

These are books I have read and they are fantastic reads. If anyone else has suggestions I'd love to add some more books to my own book case.

Hope this helps!
Posted 7/7/13
I think the real question is; was there ever a beginning?

There may have been an incomprehensible phenomenon which eliminated the possibility of creation's beginning. There may also be an impossibility of creation's end. Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, they only change forms. So, what do we gather from that? Is there simply no conceivable way to solve where all existence originated? Are we meant to know the answer if there even is one?

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Posted 7/7/13

Elektrawnik wrote:

I think the real question is; was there ever a beginning?

There may have been an incomprehensible phenomenon which eliminated the possibility of creation's beginning. There may also be an impossibility of creation's end. Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, they only change forms. So, what do we gather from that? Is there simply no conceivable way to solve where all existence originated? Are we meant to know the answer if there even is one?



Philosophy, the proverbial rodent in a hamster wheel; useful for mental mastication, useless for everything else...
Posted 7/7/13

spacebat wrote:


Elektrawnik wrote:

I think the real question is; was there ever a beginning?

There may have been an incomprehensible phenomenon which eliminated the possibility of creation's beginning. There may also be an impossibility of creation's end. Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, they only change forms. So, what do we gather from that? Is there simply no conceivable way to solve where all existence originated? Are we meant to know the answer if there even is one?



Philosophy, the proverbial rodent in a hamster wheel; useful for mental mastication, useless for everything else...


Phylosophy is like trying to find a black cat in a completely dark room, much like answers to certain "unanswerable" questions. Science, at very least, attempts to seek explanations and proof. We know this already. However, science is a part of philosophy, as science is a form of wisdom.
Aryth 
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Posted 7/10/13

samotz wrote:

Everything must come from somewhere, so the universe must come from somewhere, the supersphere, but then where does the supersphere come from? There must be an ultimate origin of the universe, but then there is still the perplexing question of where the ultimate origin came from? Where is it at?

Things do not have to come from somewhere. Some things have always existed and always will. But try to imagine such a thing. I fail to do so without a sense of objection, but the sense is vague - I don't understand where it's coming from. It's like a hint to a riddle that I don't get.

Which is right?


You are using what is called infinite regress. The problem with this is that you cannot possibly justify your statements.

You say that the universe is here, so it must have come from somewhere. Why does it have to come from somewhere? Because you assumed that everything must come from somewhere?

The next question is then "Why must everything come from somewhere?".

The universe exists, and we'd certainly like to know why, but I don't assume that it came from somewhere until I know where it came from.
samotz 
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Posted 7/10/13

spacebat wrote:

If you're truly interested in these types of questions and not content in just waxing poetic, Learn Physics and dive a bit into Quantum Theory.

Here are some great books to get you on your road:

Isaac Newton: The Principia

Richard Feynman: The Character of Physical Law

Max Planck: The origin and Development of the Quantum Theory

Albert Einstein: Relativity the Special and General Theory

Paul Dirac: The principles of Quantum Mechanics

These are books I have read and they are fantastic reads. If anyone else has suggestions I'd love to add some more books to my own book case.

Hope this helps!


Thanks! But why quantum mechanics? I am somewhat educated in college level physics, but I don't really know anything about quantum mechanics.
samotz 
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Posted 7/10/13

Aryth wrote:
You are using what is called infinite regress. The problem with this is that you cannot possibly justify your statements.

You say that the universe is here, so it must have come from somewhere. Why does it have to come from somewhere? Because you assumed that everything must come from somewhere?

The next question is then "Why must everything come from somewhere?".

The universe exists, and we'd certainly like to know why, but I don't assume that it came from somewhere until I know where it came from.


I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you clarify for me?
Aryth 
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Posted 7/11/13

samotz wrote:


Aryth wrote:
You are using what is called infinite regress. The problem with this is that you cannot possibly justify your statements.

You say that the universe is here, so it must have come from somewhere. Why does it have to come from somewhere? Because you assumed that everything must come from somewhere?

The next question is then "Why must everything come from somewhere?".

The universe exists, and we'd certainly like to know why, but I don't assume that it came from somewhere until I know where it came from.


I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you clarify for me?


The argument you used in your original post is an argument that has existed for quite some time, called "Infinite Regression". You go backwards in time infinitely, never finding a stopping point. Since you never stop saying that something had to come from something had to come from something..., you can't individually justify each statement. I can argue your statements with some of my own.

Why does this universe have to come from somewhere?
Because...
But why "..."?
Because...
But why "..."?
.
.
.
ad infinitum.

We would never reach a conclusion, so using infinite regression to show that there had to be an origin point is useless, because it is not logically justifiable.
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