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Posted 1/27/08 , edited 1/28/08

excalion wrote:

No I don't really think I'm a genius, I said it doesn't take a genius to use logic, but it probably WILL take a genius if this particular individual was exposed to religious propaganda first to see past that and use logic.


I must be a genius. (as in screw reading all of that)
Now that you're waay off topic, wanna move it to another thread?
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excalion wrote:

Ugh, fine, since you insist on bickering, I'll humor you.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
You amaze me, you really do.

Yay let's be sarcastic because that will get things accomplished.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
You seem to think your a genius? Also how did you come to that fact that your 'logic' happends to be correct? - Can't I simply say It doesn't take a genius to use logic + common sense does it? Oh wait..it does when you are blinded by the fact that you will not taking anything new, only what you believe is correct must be correct in your eyes.

No I don't really think I'm a genius, I said it doesn't take a genius to use logic, but it probably WILL take a genius if this particular individual was exposed to religious propaganda first to see past that and use logic.
And please, during the past 2 weeks or so, I've read about 1500+ pages dealing with the nature of religion, don't assume I'm not taking in anything new just because I didn't initially cite any examples to support my claims. I just couldn't be bothered.


Dark_Flubba wrote:

excalion wrote: No, but you dont have to be Christian to understand it's teachings. I'm not a Nazi, but I understand their beliefs, although I dont quite like them, but I still understand them.


What makes you think you understand them? You simply said in basic terms .. "Yeah I don't like 'em but I understand 'em oh yeah and I really don't like them" - What do you actually understand about Christianity? Apart from your little percentage that 'MUST' be correct in your eyes?

Actually I was just using an example to show that you don't have to be a part of something to understand it. The example I used were the Nazis, and I meant I don't like the Nazis' beliefs.


Dark_Flubba wrote:

excalion wrote: 2. 49.5% chance its a bunch of idiots running around believing they can actually understand God.
3. and 1% chance its a bunch of idiots running around blindly and believing illogical nonsense that actually happened to be right.


So you understand Christian's teaching which are about God, but you say it's about a bunch of idiots who think they can understand God? - Since you 'understand' Christianity which is about understanding God, does that put you into that 49.5% of idiots? Once again you refer to your 'logic' which you obviously believe is the only correct thing.

Ok well since I'm humoring you, I'll take the time to point out your invalid deductions(logical fallacies)
You basically did this:
1. X attempts to explain Y
2. A understands X
----
Therefor: A believes X.....what?
----

Also, I blatantly stated before we're all idiots. I'm not claiming my logic is correct, I'm merely claiming that given the evidence we have, it is the more logical.

(oh btw, another logical fallacy is called "ad hominem" look it up, should help in future debates)


Dark_Flubba wrote:

excalion wrote: I've already backed it up plenty in other threads, I can copy/paste them all here but you're not going to read them anyways so I wont bother.


Go on, C/P them here. Why assume I won't read them? You don't know me.

Ok you asked for it o.o



The idea of perfection can exist in our minds, but perfection cannot exist in the physical world.

I think the next thing you mention has something to do with not always trusting what we percieve. That is absolutely true, I think I made a post about something like that in another topic about gravity. Either way, it is true we have no way of being absolutely sure of anything about anything, but the universe is a system of probabilities, some more likely than others. Even the most deductive logical sequence is only a probability, a very very very good one, but still only a probability.
Logicians usually separate logical arguments into two major categories, inductive and deductive. Inductive is supposed to be based on probability and deductive is supposed to be based on absolutes. But you take into consideration the near impossibility of having absolutely true premises due to our imperfect senses, Pure deductive logic is near impossible:

"again, something exists in our mind, but takes no physical 'realistic' form"

After all that probably useless background material, my point here is this:

Although human logic is probably very very flawed, as much as we can percieve, it usually works. And the same goes for everything else. We take what makes the most sense to us, and stick with it, although we know its probably false, but its the best false truth we have.

As an argument against Berkeley's proposition, consider this:

God percieves us, God percieves mountains, God percieves trees, and as such they exist.

And God exists to percieve all things, because we percieve God.

That is the essence of what I'm trying to say. Of course we can follow this circle to infinite...but I'd rather not. Just to me...the false truth that God is a being that only exists because we percieve of him as so in our minds makes more sense to me.




Understanding the fact that you do not support any particular system, you seem to have adopted a system for yourself however. Although this system is not widely in circulation in the general populace it is not unique. No matter, this system is, even though you tried to deviate from the norm of society, still an end product of logic, reasoning and the influence of cultures.
This reminds me of the relativism theory. The theory states that there are no absolute truths, but if that was true, the theory would itself become an absolute truth, which would violate itself.

It seems no matter which path we take, in the end we just hit a wall and can go no further.

These are all ideas in our heads. The systems, these contradictions, these paradoxical situations. As we cannot answer these questions with a concrete idea, maybe human beings created the idea of a God as the unknown entity to fit into this puzzle.

If our perception of reality is just our own imagination, we now have this picture.

--Human beings are not, and cannot ever, be perfect. This includes both physical and mental prowess, but we want to be.
--Due to these imperfections, our mind perceives many many problems, contradictions and paradoxes.
--But we want to be perfect, so we constantly seek after a solution to these problems.
--After a long time, we realized no such solution is possible (at this current moment).
--So, like frustrated children at a game of chess where all our options are exhausted, we throw the chessboard across the room and yell "I win"
--and thus 'God' was created
--but considering all these imperfections are actually created by our imagination (as without imagination we would not even know what imperfection is)
--and thus our imagination, fueled by our desire to be perfect, created this wild card called 'God'
--and the only way to actually be able to achieve perfection(at least mentally) in the state our world is in right now is by using this wild card.

We can also see this as a balance. Lets suppose these 'walls' we hit in philosophy are an infinite (seeing as most of them just go in circles), the only way to balance out this infinite is with another infinite (the idea of God). And that's what the idea of God turns into for those who believe in him I suppose.




God is a Being to whom we ascribe our perfections and ideas which escape our comprehension. He is also the event, far beyond our grasp, which authored our Universe.

"He(God) is a Being infinitely perfect--of this we cannot doubt. But in the same manner as we ought not to imagine, even supposing him corporeal, that he is clothed with a human body, as the anthropomorphites asserted, under color that that figure was the most perfect of any, so neither ought we to imagine that the spirit of God has human ideas or bears any resemblance to our spirit, under color that we know nothing more perfect than a human mind. We ought rather to believe that as he comprehends the perfections of matter without being material...he comprehends also the perfections of created spirits without being spirit, in the manner we conceive spirit: that his true name is He that Is, or, in other words, Being without restriction, All Being, the Being infinite and universal."

"But as all perfection is entirely relative, we ought never to imagine that we comprehend the attributes of this divine Being, or to suppose that his perfections have any analogy or likeness to the perfections of a human creature. Wisdom, thought, design, knowledge--these we justly ascribe to him because these words are honorable among men, and we have no other language or other conceptions by which we can express our adoration of him. But let us beware lest we think that our ideas anywise correspond to his perfections, or that his attributes have any resemblance to these qualities among men. He is infinitely superior to our limited view and comprehension, and is more the object of worship in the temple than of disputation in the schools."



Dark_Flubba wrote:

excalion wrote: Frankly, with how your God runs things, I'd rather be a Satanist. But seeing as how I dont need some Diety to blindly believe in to make myself feel secure, I'm not a Satanist either.


So why not tell me what you hate oh so much about how 'my' God runs things then? Hell, why not tell me why Satanism is 'better'? Haha once again it's about 'blindly believing'? So...everyone who believes in anything would be 'blindly believing'. Do you not believe in something because you have faith in it? Because you believe it is good. Then again who know's what your thinking.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus


Dark_Flubba wrote:

excalion wrote: You may have something here, we're all probably ignorant retards.


Some more so than others.

In the presence of the infinite, we are all fools of the same degree.


This time I'm not going to quote everything ... because I really can't be bothered.

You want to acomplish something do you? Well this is very obvious, neither of our opinions are going to change nor our perceptions.

You said that it doesn't take a genius, yes that's true but you were obviously referring to yourself as being the one with the 'common sense and logic'. Then you go onto saying that I'm blinded by religion. You are simply trying to say that I have no idea what's going on because I have religion in my life? But you are all knowing and know the right path to take since you don't associate with religion.

"And please, during the past 2 weeks or so, I've read about 1500+ pages dealing with the nature of religion, don't assume I'm not taking in anything new just because I didn't initially cite any examples to support my claims. I just couldn't be bothered." - I never said anything about you not knowing relgion. This debate has been purely made from the fact that I believe religion is not something that is blind propaganda while you believe it is.

Umm...you used an example of you understanding teachings but before you said you don't need to be Christian to understand, So therefore you are saying you understand Christianity hence my reply.

Ok well since I'm humoring you, I'll take the time to point out your invalid deductions(logical fallacies)
You basically did this:
1. X attempts to explain Y
2. A understands X
----
Therefor: A believes X.....what?
----

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of that or what you want me to say in rebuttle of that. So I'm just going to leave it on move on. I'm pretty sure I made sense.

Haha quoting an Aethiest makes you correct now does it? Now that's what I call logic! - Your still yet to answer what you believe in and feel makes you secure.

In the presence of the infinite, we are all fools of the same degree. - Once again, some more so than others.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

Well this is going to be totally off topic if not already.

It's called choice, it's called judgement. If we were to be made 100% perfect, without fears, worries or sins then why be alive? Would we not be simply the equivalent of a robot which has no life, which is simply told to do and does? No, we are human, we do as we please, God doesn't 'prevent' evil because he gives us a choice. He is able and using the world 'willing' is wrong. Choice.

I'll answer to the other quotes a bit later, busy atm.
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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08
EDIT: Double posted, sorry!
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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08

Gabcom wrote:


excalion wrote:

No I don't really think I'm a genius, I said it doesn't take a genius to use logic, but it probably WILL take a genius if this particular individual was exposed to religious propaganda first to see past that and use logic.


I must be a genius. (as in screw reading all of that)
Now that you're waay off topic, wanna move it to another thread?


lol well I'm bored and just humoring that particular individual, getting ready to watch anime now so I'll probably stop

Edit: nvm, 1 more hehe =P
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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08

Dark_Flubba wrote:
This time I'm not going to quote everything ... because I really can't be bothered.

You want to acomplish something do you? Well this is very obvious, neither of our opinions are going to change nor our perceptions.

Actually my views and opinions have changed quite a lot in the past two weeks, which is incidentally when I started reading on religious philosophy. I'm really not doing justice to the ideas I've read about as I probably suck at explaining things. Oh well, point being, if something actually makes sense, I am willing to change my own views. I dont know if I can say the same about you. But then again, I'm just humoring you and this is all done out of good fun. So I dont really care that much whether you change or not.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
You said that it doesn't take a genius, yes that's true but you were obviously referring to yourself as being the one with the 'common sense and logic'. Then you go onto saying that I'm blinded by religion. You are simply trying to say that I have no idea what's going on because I have religion in my life? But you are all knowing and know the right path to take since you don't associate with religion.

No no you misunderstand. I left something of importance out in my original post in here.

"and the rest of us are idiots that believe we can understand the non-existence of God,
in the end, we're all just idiots, so it doesn't really matter, but its always fun to debate whether your idiocy is better than my idiocy"


Dark_Flubba wrote:
"And please, during the past 2 weeks or so, I've read about 1500+ pages dealing with the nature of religion, don't assume I'm not taking in anything new just because I didn't initially cite any examples to support my claims. I just couldn't be bothered." - I never said anything about you not knowing relgion.

1. Assuming you know what 'ignorance' means, you called me an 'ignorant retard' which is obviously referring to your assumption of my minuscule knowledge on religion.
2. You said "Why do you define as if you know what Christianity is?", obviously implying I dont know what it is.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
This debate has been purely made from the fact that I believe religion is not something that is blind propaganda while you believe it is.

Well I think I've cited a substantial amount of reasoning why I think it is, yet you have not actually made any attempt at bringing up reasoning why it isn't. All you've done so far is basically flaming. This is not really a debate, this is more like, I said something on a whim, you got offended and responded harshly, then I defended my claims, and now you're just picking out technicalities to respond to.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Umm...you used an example of you understanding teachings but before you said you don't need to be Christian to understand, So therefore you are saying you understand Christianity hence my reply.

Ok well since I'm humoring you, I'll take the time to point out your invalid deductions(logical fallacies)
You basically did this:
1. X attempts to explain Y
2. A understands X
----
Therefor: A believes X.....what?
----

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of that or what you want me to say in rebuttle of that. So I'm just going to leave it on move on. I'm pretty sure I made sense.

Well the problem with that analogy is that just because I understand Christian teachings and I realize that they are unlikely, doesn't mean I understand God.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Haha quoting an Aethiest makes you correct now does it? Now that's what I call logic! - Your still yet to answer what you believe in and feel makes you secure.

Actually, that has nothing to do with quoting an atheist, its quoting a logical deduction. Stop with your ad hominem attacks, they are pointless.
As for what I believe, I've already stated that in my previous post in the quotes, so if you want to find out, take the time to actually read/think about them, since you requested them in the first place.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
In the presence of the infinite, we are all fools of the same degree. - Once again, some more so than others.

Ugh, ok I'll clarify this for you.
Yes, some more so than others, but it matters not. It matters about as much as we care which ant is more of a fool.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

Well this is going to be totally off topic if not already.

It's called choice, it's called judgement. If we were to be made 100% perfect, without fears, worries or sins then why be alive? Would we not be simply the equivalent of a robot which has no life, which is simply told to do and does? No, we are human, we do as we please, God doesn't 'prevent' evil because he gives us a choice. He is able and using the world 'willing' is wrong. Choice.

I'll answer to the other quotes a bit later, busy atm.


Typical response. So I'll give you a typical answer.
Why would we be alive? We wouldn't be, that's the point. If God was benevolent and omnipotent, we wouldn't exist. He would not have made us as a sick joke to entertain himself.

Another typical answer:

He Is GOD. If he is omnipotent, he can do ANYTHING, including giving us perfection AND free will, eliminate suffering, keeping us perfectly happy while not breaking any 'moral codes'. Anything short of being able to do ANYTHING is NOT omnipotence. The ONLY logical deduction we can possibly make from how things are in the world right now is we are God's sick creation for his own entertainment in watching us suffer.
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excalion wrote:


Dark_Flubba wrote:
This time I'm not going to quote everything ... because I really can't be bothered.

You want to acomplish something do you? Well this is very obvious, neither of our opinions are going to change nor our perceptions.

Actually my views and opinions have changed quite a lot in the past two weeks, which is incidentally when I started reading on religious philosophy. I'm really not doing justice to the ideas I've read about as I probably suck at explaining things. Oh well, point being, if something actually makes sense, I am willing to change my own views. I dont know if I can say the same about you. But then again, I'm just humoring you and this is all done out of good fun. So I dont really care that much whether you change or not.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
You said that it doesn't take a genius, yes that's true but you were obviously referring to yourself as being the one with the 'common sense and logic'. Then you go onto saying that I'm blinded by religion. You are simply trying to say that I have no idea what's going on because I have religion in my life? But you are all knowing and know the right path to take since you don't associate with religion.

No no you misunderstand. I left something of importance out in my original post in here.

"and the rest of us are idiots that believe we can understand the non-existence of God,
in the end, we're all just idiots, so it doesn't really matter, but its always fun to debate whether your idiocy is better than my idiocy"


Dark_Flubba wrote:
"And please, during the past 2 weeks or so, I've read about 1500+ pages dealing with the nature of religion, don't assume I'm not taking in anything new just because I didn't initially cite any examples to support my claims. I just couldn't be bothered." - I never said anything about you not knowing relgion.

1. Assuming you know what 'ignorance' means, you called me an 'ignorant retard' which is obviously referring to your assumption of my minuscule knowledge on religion.
2. You said "Why do you define as if you know what Christianity is?", obviously implying I dont know what it is.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
This debate has been purely made from the fact that I believe religion is not something that is blind propaganda while you believe it is.

Well I think I've cited a substantial amount of reasoning why I think it is, yet you have not actually made any attempt at bringing up reasoning why it isn't. All you've done so far is basically flaming. This is not really a debate, this is more like, I said something on a whim, you got offended and responded harshly, then I defended my claims, and now you're just picking out technicalities to respond to.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Umm...you used an example of you understanding teachings but before you said you don't need to be Christian to understand, So therefore you are saying you understand Christianity hence my reply.

Ok well since I'm humoring you, I'll take the time to point out your invalid deductions(logical fallacies)
You basically did this:
1. X attempts to explain Y
2. A understands X
----
Therefor: A believes X.....what?
----

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of that or what you want me to say in rebuttle of that. So I'm just going to leave it on move on. I'm pretty sure I made sense.

Well the problem with that analogy is that just because I understand Christian teachings and I realize that they are unlikely, doesn't mean I understand God.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Haha quoting an Aethiest makes you correct now does it? Now that's what I call logic! - Your still yet to answer what you believe in and feel makes you secure.

Actually, that has nothing to do with quoting an atheist, its quoting a logical deduction. Stop with your ad hominem attacks, they are pointless.
As for what I believe, I've already stated that in my previous post in the quotes, so if you want to find out, take the time to actually read/think about them, since you requested them in the first place.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
In the presence of the infinite, we are all fools of the same degree. - Once again, some more so than others.

Ugh, ok I'll clarify this for you.
Yes, some more so than others, but it matters not. It matters about as much as we care which ant is more of a fool.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

Well this is going to be totally off topic if not already.

It's called choice, it's called judgement. If we were to be made 100% perfect, without fears, worries or sins then why be alive? Would we not be simply the equivalent of a robot which has no life, which is simply told to do and does? No, we are human, we do as we please, God doesn't 'prevent' evil because he gives us a choice. He is able and using the world 'willing' is wrong. Choice.

I'll answer to the other quotes a bit later, busy atm.


Typical response. So I'll give you a typical answer.
Why would we be alive? We wouldn't be, that's the point. If God was benevolent and omnipotent, we wouldn't exist. He would not have made us as a sick joke to entertain himself.

Another typical answer:

He Is GOD. If he is omnipotent, he can do ANYTHING, including giving us perfection AND free will, eliminate suffering, keeping us perfectly happy while not breaking any 'moral codes'. Anything short of being able to do ANYTHING is NOT omnipotence. The ONLY logical deduction we can possibly make from how things are in the world right now is we are God's sick creation for his own entertainment in watching us suffer.


No need to care about whether I change or not. But remember Jesus loves you! =)


"and the rest of us are idiots that believe we can understand the non-existence of God,
in the end, we're all just idiots, so it doesn't really matter, but its always fun to debate whether your idiocy is better than my idiocy"


Gotta agree with that one.


1. Assuming you know what 'ignorance' means, you called me an 'ignorant retard' which is obviously referring to your assumption of my minuscule knowledge on religion.
2. You said "Why do you define as if you know what Christianity is?", obviously implying I dont know what it is.


1. When I called you ignorant, I meant that you would not accept any other idea's except your own.
2. No actually I was implying that fact that you believe you know it all, while you have never been a Christian you still seem to talk as if you have been one and talk as if it's not worthy of anyone to be come Christian nor is any religion that is what I was implying.


Well I think I've cited a substantial amount of reasoning why I think it is, yet you have not actually made any attempt at bringing up reasoning why it isn't. All you've done so far is basically flaming. This is not really a debate, this is more like, I said something on a whim, you got offended and responded harshly, then I defended my claims, and now you're just picking out technicalities to respond to.


An easier solution, you talk about you reading 1500+ pages of religion, who's to say it wasn't completely biased? But hey who know's right? So, my answer is, go read the Bible, there's reasoning. Have I been flaming? Or I have I been simply questioning the reason you say religion and God is 'blind propaganda'? - Okay apart from the 'ignorant retard' bit, that was actually to get you to reply faster.


Well the problem with that analogy is that just because I understand Christian teachings and I realize that they are unlikely, doesn't mean I understand God.


Christian teachings are based on God. What God want's and how we should behave etc. Once again I ask what do you know about Christian teachings, for the third time I believe.


Actually, that has nothing to do with quoting an atheist, its quoting a logical deduction. Stop with your ad hominem attacks, they are pointless.
As for what I believe, I've already stated that in my previous post in the quotes, so if you want to find out, take the time to actually read/think about them, since you requested them in the first place.


Once again with logic, the logic you see that the person you quoted is because you have the same perception of religion as him hence you believe he is correct and must be a logical deduction. Your posts seem to have one simple meaning, that God is not real because we made him up to escape our problems. Well let me ask you, what causes problems? Why are there problems? Problems = Evil correct? Why isn't the world fully corrupted? Why are people nice, kind, compassionate, these virtues cannot come from evil, then why hasn't evil consumed everyone? The world is full of problems and we just wan't to escape correct? So we use a 'fake being' to escape our problems? But if it's a fake being then nothing should change, correct? After all it is fake, what can something that is 'fake' do anything.

Let me ask you why have people died for something that is fake? Why do people go through persecution day after day for something that is purely made up? Why does the majority of the world believe in a God, we must all be wrong except for Aethiests which believe a God is purely wrong and false. If so then let me come back to your example of Nazi's, they believed Hitler as a God, but there is no such thing as a God, so they believed in something that is unreal and false but used these 'false' accusations and beliefs to slaughter innocent lives? Which comes back to my point that this is caused by evil, which means evil should have dominated the world and the world should be no more, but why are we still here? Debating about this?


Ugh, ok I'll clarify this for you.
Yes, some more so than others, but it matters not. It matters about as much as we care which ant is more of a fool.


But we care for everything we do or we wouldn't do it. So therefore we are all fools and some more so than others.


He Is GOD. If he is omnipotent, he can do ANYTHING, including giving us perfection AND free will, eliminate suffering, keeping us perfectly happy while not breaking any 'moral codes'. Anything short of being able to do ANYTHING is NOT omnipotence. The ONLY logical deduction we can possibly make from how things are in the world right now is we are God's sick creation for his own entertainment in watching us suffer.


If he can do anything, then he can simply give us perfection and free will in a way we cannot understand. Why do must we understand it or must it be logical for us to make it be? If God he can do anything as you said, so why not this? Why can't he do everything and anything in a way we don't understand.









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Dark_Flubba wrote:
1. When I called you ignorant, I meant that you would not accept any other idea's except your own.

Except ignorant doesn't mean arrogant, ignorant means ignorant, which is now what you say you meant.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
2. No actually I was implying that fact that you believe you know it all, while you have never been a Christian you still seem to talk as if you have been one and talk as if it's not worthy of anyone to be come Christian nor is any religion that is what I was implying.

How can you criticize me for something you're doing yourself (believing you/christians know it all)
Also, I do not need to be a Christian to object to being a Christian, just like I dont need to be a Nazi to object to being a Nazi.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
An easier solution, you talk about you reading 1500+ pages of religion, who's to say it wasn't completely biased?

Keep this thought in mind.

Dark_Flubba wrote:
But hey who know's right? So, my answer is, go read the Bible, there's reasoning.

Remember the thought I said to keep in mind?


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Christian teachings are based on God.

Christians think Christian teachings are based on God.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Once again I ask what do you know about Christian teachings, for the third time I believe.

Christian teachings include
1. Love thy neighbor. (Which no one follows, they might make a facade for it, but deep down, they dont)
2. Do not kill. (lol..I shouldn't even need to bring up how people have not followed this)
3. God is just and wise. (please refer to what I quoted above on God and human traits)
4. God loves you. (I find is hard to believe a being so far superior to us loves us, and if he did love us, would not make us suffer)


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Your posts seem to have one simple meaning, that God is not real because we made him up to escape our problems. Well let me ask you, what causes problems? Why are there problems?

Problems are a nature occurrence. They are simply the events that we find unpleasant.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Problems = Evil correct?

Actually Suffering = Evil
Problems = inevitability.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Why isn't the world fully corrupted? Why are people nice, kind, compassionate, these virtues cannot come from evil, then why hasn't evil consumed everyone?

1. People are nice, kind, compassionate because of
a) a guilty conscious
b) fear of going to hell
2. You are assuming good and evil exists (under the pretext of God)
3. You are assuming this 'evil' has not already consumed everyone.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
The world is full of problems and we just wan't to escape correct? So we use a 'fake being' to escape our problems? But if it's a fake being then nothing should change, correct? After all it is fake, what can something that is 'fake' do anything.

Ever heard of the placebo effect?
People dont need this 'fake' thing to do anything, they can do it themselves. They just need a mental image of security to comfort themselves.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Let me ask you why have people died for something that is fake? Why do people go through persecution day after day for something that is purely made up?

People are stubborn, they will die for their beliefs, but that in no way shape or form makes those beliefs right.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
Why does the majority of the world believe in a God, we must all be wrong except for Aethiests which believe a God is purely wrong and false. If so then let me come back to your example of Nazi's, they believed Hitler as a God, but there is no such thing as a God, so they believed in something that is unreal and false but used these 'false' accusations and beliefs to slaughter innocent lives? Which comes back to my point that this is caused by evil, which means evil should have dominated the world and the world should be no more, but why are we still here? Debating about this?

Hitler was a powerful political leader, but he was hardly considered a God.
Actually, you just contradicted yourself, lemme quote your sentences and put them together.



But if it's a fake being then nothing should change, correct? After all it is fake, what can something that is 'fake' do anything.




Nazi's, they believed Hitler as a God, but there is no such thing as a God, so they believed in something that is unreal and false but used these 'false' accusations and beliefs to slaughter innocent lives?

Also, you are assuming just because Evil has dominated the world, we would not be here.


Dark_Flubba wrote:
But we care for everything we do or we wouldn't do it. So therefore we are all fools and some more so than others.

I never refuted what you said, I just said it really doesn't matter. Now can we stop talking about this pointless technicality?



Dark_Flubba wrote:
If he can do anything, then he can simply give us perfection and free will in a way we cannot understand. Why do must we understand it or must it be logical for us to make it be? If God he can do anything as you said, so why not this? Why can't he do everything and anything in a way we don't understand.


He can, that's exactly what I'm saying.
And if he does exist, I believe he has done everything in a way we cannot understand.
But Christians claim to understand it, which I find to be absurd.
You probably agree with me on these issues, but you see something against Christianity and you instantly refute it to defend your religion. That's the problem with religion, it rarely looks at what is important, it just looks at names and kill each other for their differences.
----------------------------------------------------------
As for a clarification on my own beliefs.
Looking at the cosmological argument, it is likely that 'something' existed before our universe, and was the cause of our universe.
This existence however, was unlikely to be this "God" Christians believe, it is probably more of an 'event'. Do I believe God exists? That depends on your definition of God.
If you define God as an idea in people's head that give solace. Then yes, I believe God exists.
If you define God as an unknown event that was the original cause of our universe. The yes, I believe God exists.
If you define God as a being out of a magical fairy tale that 'magically' created us all and is a gentle and loving being that's constantly looking out for us in the heavens. Then no, I dont think such a God exists.
---------

PS: This is getting way off topic, I'm making a new thread.
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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08
Because the more you rant, the more you're convincing me that he either doesn't exist, or just doesn't care as much as people would like to think.



So, my answer is, go read the Bible, there's reasoning.


You have GOT to be kidding...................................................................................................................................................................................................................



Your posts seem to have one simple meaning, that God is not real because we made him up to escape our problems.


You know, no one has said anything close to saying that God does not exist. More so the "facts" that people have come to believe in relation to this all-powerful "God".



Let me ask you why have people died for something that is fake? Why do people go through persecution day after day for something that is purely made up?


Because people seek purpose and meaning to everything, it is in their nature (the fact that some may be lazy doesn't mean anything) to be curious. If they stumble upon something that looks good, they're off. That's why different cultures exist, as do cults, religion and other things that they've grown to believe is true.
Your Nazi example doesn't say anything except agree on how people can be led to believe things that are "wrong". Ironic that you're arguing about Christianity being "right" or Atheists being "wrong even though they think they're right" and saying that at the same time. While were at it, what is evil? What is wrong? What is right? Who judges that?
Which leads to:


If he can do anything, then he can simply give us perfection and free will in a way we cannot understand. Why do must we understand it or must it be logical for us to make it be? If God he can do anything as you said, so why not this? Why can't he do everything and anything in a way we don't understand.


If having a 11 year old girl get raped and then buried alive was something that is "right" but is beyond our understanding, then fuck understanding it. If making something able to do something like that, then that is fucked.



god was sacrificing this child as a way to show others the light. much as he did his own child. what a beautiful gift he has given us.

Source: http://duggmirror.com/comedy/100_Greatest_Quotes_from_fundamentalist_christian_chat_rooms/

From hearing that, I don't care what's true, I don't want to be associated with a sick fuck like this guy.

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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08
I dont' really see a need for this thread. If it's going to benefit the forum it will, if it won't then there's no point even discussing about it. It's a place to clearly define serious discussions apart from more casual threads.

I'm getting really tired of seeing how people keep posting about religions and now treat this entire section like a holding area for religious threads. Can't there be other topics besides 'your opinion of God(s) or his/her followers or his/her doctrines' and to talk about?

If intellect only goes as far to biased opinions about religions then this section is in vain. The religion centered threads here are largely based on opinions of people, and not much factual discussion if you read carefully.
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Posted 1/28/08 , edited 1/28/08
I don't remember how this thread has become a debate table about Religion, but it's completely off topic.
I don't think theres anything that can be added onto the points already contributed in relation to the topic, so you can go ahead and delete it if you like, I'll leave the judgement in your Mod-ly hands.
When I saw the Extended Discussion section, it looked really empty, so I thought I'd just put in a topic to start it off.

*On a side note, where would I place a thread asking about Clubbing in Japan?
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Posted 1/29/08 , edited 1/29/08
Gabcom, in the "Cars" section. Except add, "[What car would get me the most chicks whilst] clubbing in Japan?"

Also, ten pages of people saying the same things make me sad.
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Posted 2/19/08 , edited 2/19/08
Personally, I think it's great that Shinji made this section. It provides a place for people who like to think, debate and view the opinions of other people on difficult topics. Basically, anyone who enjoys the previously stated activities would use this thread. I have seen people post very thoughtful and carefully constructed comments - people who obviously thought about what they were going to say before they typed it. This is great too, it makes the forum a nice place to converse with people about your opinions.

Even so, I think it's ridiculously strange that people who can't think of anything to say would still go to a section like this. Theoretically, it shouldn't even interest them in the slightest. They probably just want to have their opinions heard, even though it's completely meaningless and stupid.

Why don't people obey the forum rules? The rules are obviously placed there to make the forums a better place for everyone and more enjoyable for you to use. Why don't people realise this? Most likely they don't even know there were rules in the first place (I think there are some automatic rules and invisible boundaries on the internet. You should know this by instinct.) And even if they saw there was a rules thread in the first place, they probably wouldn't read it anyway.

My last point is, they probably don't think about how annoying it is for the rest of us. While we're trying to get an understanding of the people around us, they suddenly come in and spend 5 precious seconds reading their trash. Plus the forum mods have to work extra hard to tell them to stop it, delete it, edit it etc. Inconsiderate is the word for it.
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 3/4/08
Personally, i think this section is an outlet for all the emos that like to complain and whine about things.
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Posted 3/3/08 , edited 3/4/08
On Topic: I love this section the best out of all the others because debates are fun

Off Topic: @The 2 users discussing on religion: There are 2 kinds of Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism (individualistic type) and Traditional Satanism (anti-Christian type). LaVeyan Satanism does not portray Satan as a form deity. In fact, their philosophy tells us that each and everyone of us has an evil side which they call "Satan". Which makes more sense than the imaginary "God" Christians are trying to portray.
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