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Deoxyribonucleic acid
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Posted 7/18/13
I took an awesome dump today. It may seem like I designed it to look like chocolate frozen yogurt with corn toppings, but it was 100% random.

PS something is wrong with CR website my posts keep getting deleted
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Posted 7/18/13

bensonc120 wrote:

I took an awesome dump today. It may seem like I designed it to look like chocolate frozen yogurt with corn toppings, but it was 100% random.

PS something is wrong with CR website my posts keep getting deleted


It is quite possible CRbot is not satisfied with the artistic nature of your defecation. Perhaps it expected something more along the lines of a souffle with a lovely red wine sauce topped with cherries?
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Posted 7/18/13 , edited 7/18/13
Red wine sauce? No problem! I knew my hemorrhoids would come in handy someday. For cherries I can try swallowing a couple whole and see how they come out.
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Posted 7/18/13

GayAsianBoy wrote:

Lol, topics like these really get me passionate and fired up. I love discussing science vs religion things xD


Before I get on to the implications of DNA being intelligently designed, we need to firstly look at the implications of the existence of an "intelligent designer" itself.
Suppose DNA was intelligently designed, why does it need to be "designed"? Is it because of the complexity of this biological molecule? Is it because biological things cannot manifest by themselves?
And if it was intelligently designed due to the notion of complexity, what or who designed the "intelligent designer"? Where and when does this cycle end?

Therefore, it comes down to a logical conclusion, if "intelligent designers" can exist by themselves, why can't DNA exist and manifest by themselves?



Ok, now on to the implication of DNA being "intelligently designed".

It doesn't look intelligently designed, because DNA makes errors. Yup, it makes errors continuously every time it replicate itself. Now, in early stages of life (3-4 billion years ago), this error occurred very often, that was how so many different lifeforms come to exist today.
But in higher eukaryotes (animals and mammals like us), DNA has evolved a new mechanism to lower this rate of error tremendously, that is, by incorporating a proof-reading error correction mechanism (this is sort of like spell check on a word document).

Thus allowing humans to exist without much DNA replication errors, i.e., we stay consistent, we don't suddenly get four arms or four legs on a random basis.


Now, if you look at smaller organisms (known as Prokaryotes) such as bacteria and virus, their mutation rate is VERY high because they lack a proof-reading mechanism in their DNA replication process.
HIV (Human immunodeficiency virus) is a perfect example of this. That's why it's hard to find a cure for HIV, because they don't have a proof-reading mechanism at all, they mutate at free will, allowing their protein to change shape all the time, and thus they can avoid any medicine that we invent.
Even though there are anti-viral medicine, you can only reduce the amount of viral content, you can never get rid of HIV completely from your body. Because it mutates all the time.


Anyway, my point is that, DNA existed and manifest by itself, it didn't need a designer, it took over 4 billion years for it to get to this stage. It didn't happen in a day.
So you can't expect 4 billion years worth of replicating over and over to remain simple.



First off, interesting username. I'm sort of with you on this. I thing that DNA is just the evolutionary state of being in this evolutionary species and it will continue to become more and more "intelligently designed" as OP put it. with complexities and intreseting traits. But it will only get that way through mutations, caused by various stressors. Originally single celled organisms into probably Triple-helix DNA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-stranded_DNA And if we're this complex at double helix, I think our far and evolved descendants would have interesting DNA.
Posted 7/18/13
Intelligent Design or Grand Design may have allowed all the parameters for flaws. What is a genetic strain without shortcomings to overcome and change?
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Posted 7/19/13
More than 90% of our DNA is junk-DNA(DNA codes that does nothing)...

If this is intelligently designed... than I donno what to make of the designer...
mipegg 
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Posted 7/19/13 , edited 7/19/13

kreyco wrote:

"The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."

-Steven Hawking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe


Interpreting that as meaning designed is completely missing the point. Its conditional probability, what is the probability of the universe having the correct attributes for live given live exists? Clearly its 1, since live exists. If it were changed then live wouldn't exist and thus we wouldn't be able to measure it thus any universe in which live can exist must be 'fine tuned' for it.

More over if you use that point to indicate there must be a designer then clearly conditions must have been designed precisely so that the designer could be designed, because its quite clear that designers find it substantially easier to design things less complicated than themselves. EG despite our sincerest efforts for many years we've made effectively zero process modelling the brain, yet can easily manufacture substantially less complex things such as computers, ergo it would take a more complex designer, to design a less complex designer, to design the universe.

This sort of logic is a clear and direct failing of religion. Its panicked attempts to claw to the edges of a chasm as it falls into the pit of death, rather than accepting religious scripts for what they are (outdated legal structures used to subdue, tax and control people) we cling to them desperately. People use the 'oh well that bits a 'metaphor'' for anything thats clearly wrong and use this other stupid 'liquid god' idea of just using it to fill in the massive holes in their arguments and try to explain current scientific problems by coating it with 'god'. Occams razor, if your solution adds nothing to knowledge yet has massive assumptions then it is clearly wrong in every way. If only we could stop indoctrinating kids from a young age and spread science and proper education throughout the religious infested 3rd word maybe we could get somewhere.



Note: I full expect all people who believe in these sorts of ideas to completely ignore my entirely reasonable and well argued point, rarely have I ever seen loonies like that get into arguments short of them slinging mud at one side and the other doing basically nothing back since it would be a total waste of time. It would seem rationality is beyond these people, but I guess its ok cause their imaginary friend told them to do it :rolleyes:


Elektrawnik wrote:

Intelligent Design or Grand Design may have allowed all the parameters for flaws. What is a genetic strain without shortcomings to overcome and change?



Whats a computer that doesnt randomly shut down and delete all its data? A bad computer from an incompetent manufacturer and a stupid designer. If thats what your 'god' is like I see no reason to worship it
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Posted 7/19/13
wtf... what are you talking about?!?! i dont understand the question can you reword it to make it sound more easy to understand so i can answer...
mipegg 
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Posted 7/19/13

Doryphoros wrote:

wtf... what are you talking about?!?! i dont understand the question can you reword it to make it sound more easy to understand so i can answer...


His logic is this.

DNA is an apparently complex object
Complex objects (eg watches) are unlikely to have happened by random chance
Thus the DNA must have been designed
Thus there must be a god.

Hes completely forgetting even the basics of science in the law of large numbers being that incredibly unlikely things happen all the time but rarely does logic phase these people
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Posted 7/19/13

mipegg wrote:


Doryphoros wrote:

wtf... what are you talking about?!?! i dont understand the question can you reword it to make it sound more easy to understand so i can answer...


His logic is this.

DNA is an apparently complex object
Complex objects (eg watches) are unlikely to have happened by random chance
Thus the DNA must have been designed
Thus there must be a god.

Hes completely forgetting even the basics of science in the law of large numbers being that incredibly unlikely things happen all the time but rarely does logic phase these people


ok ty i think i understand it somewhat now... i agree with your answer mipegg. Maybe DNA was created on purpose or by chance becuase of the situation on earth with the sun and water or w/e it is and stuff... Could have been created by some guy like a god or smthing but that is beyond me and sounds much more believable and more likely to prove if it formed from the result of our situation on earth.. but doesnt mean thats the right way or only way dna could have been formed just more likely and doesnt mean the correct way... maybe dna was created by an ancient race that left lil clews that dem exist but made a complex so that w/e the dna turned into (human) if it searched for answer of creator then it would lead to smthing entirly different then the ancient alien race... with all the info on dna that we have acquire on earth we cant give a definite answer but can at best give well grounded answer... have you heard about xna?!?

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Posted 7/19/13
When I first heard of the idea of intellectual design I thought it would be a cool way to describe AI and other artificial constructs, but I'm pretty sure seeming convenience and the bible (age and humans make a lot of crap up) are not solid proof that life on Earth is an artificial construct. It also doesn't help that the major followers of this tend to be very theocratic groups that plug their ears when they're proven wrong and proceed to continue spouting the same rhetoric.
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Posted 7/19/13

Taedrin wrote:
Maybe it's Intelligently Designed, but then again, maybe it isn't. The position of Intelligent Design isn't falsifiable, so it isn't all that interesting to discuss outside of watching everybody troll each other.

I contest this, and will present evidence against the Intelligent Design hypothesis.
Point 1, the vertebrate eye:
Specifically, it sucks and is all ass-backwards. To get to our photoreceptor cells, light must first pass the unipolar sensory neurons and then the bipolar neurons. We essentially have a tangle of wires covering our retina and impeding our vision. We also need to bundle the neurons into a central nerve and run it through a hole in our retina (optic disc) to get it into our brain, which means a blind spot in our eye. This retarded way of growing eyes clearly means that if a greater power designed eyes, then it was a stupid greater power. In other words, Stupid Design. Or evolution, succeeding at which, by the way, doesn't mean that you're good, just that you're better than the last guy who got eaten.

Now you should realize that eyes don't have to be grown this way. Squid and octopi do it right. The photoreceptors are in the front and receive the light, then the bipolar neurons transmit the signal to the unipolar neurons and then the brain. There is no hole in their retinas and they can see far better than we do, without relying on tapetum lucidum like cats do, and suffering the subsequent blurriness of vision.

I could go on about this for days, and so could anyone who's ever taken a physiology or anatomy course, especially a comparative one.

This was just way too awesome. I mean, what makes "life" so great anyway? I like it, but since I'm alive I'm rather biased. Maybe we should get a panel together and decide by committee. We should get representatives from the prokaryotes, the eukaryotes, the archaeans, the metals, the nonmetals, the halogens, and our tie breaker can be viruses - neither animate nor inanimate. Either way, it'll take jackrabbit skeletons in the Vishnu Schist (or something equally as ridiculous) to prove the Young Earther claims of intelligent design.
Posted 7/19/13
Why would someone bring this up on an anime website?
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Posted 7/19/13
Ugggh I had to discuss this too many times simply because I love biology too much, all I found out is no one ever changes their minds, and 95% of people don't know what they're talking about they just pick up other peoples arguments along the way and then throw them around over and over.. and over.

"and over"

and by now i've been tiered of talking about this for some time and sneak out of the room quietly
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digs 
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Posted 7/19/13 , edited 7/19/13
I really hope this doesn't sound arrogant, I only say this because I've been educated on it, but as a degreed molecular biologist who has sequenced, replicated, and done professional research regarding DNA I will say that my view is that life was created and evolved. I believe that God created DNA, life, and the universe but that it went through the modern process of evolution due to the evidence behind it. I don't think that this happened by random chance, but rather by a process that was set up and took its course over millions of years.

I've also gone ahead and moved this to Extended Discussions where it may be more appropriate.
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