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George Zimmerman to the rescue?
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Posted 7/23/13
I don't care about the case anymore. A 17 year old is dead, and he walks without so much as a slap on the wrist. Nothing I say or do will change the outcome of the case. If I can only wish one thing, is that he lives the rest of his life reminding himself that a 17 year old was murdered by him.
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17 / M / Straight Outta Co...
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Posted 7/23/13
Eh I believe he should have been convicted of manslaughter, but on the same token he's trying to improve and become a better person and move on now.
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Posted 7/23/13 , edited 7/23/13

Acoleth wrote:
Being followed by a stranger is not legal or moral justification for assaulting them. In fact, ANY form of non-violent "provocation" is not legal or moral justification for assaulting someone. If someone follows you, calls you names, insults your family, spits on you, whatever...you don't have the right to respond by punching them in the head and beating them down on the sidewalk.

But if you do, your victim has the right to respond with deadly force. Hundreds of people are killed every year in the U.S. by an UNARMED assailant...here's the FBI data: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html, so the fact that Martin was using only "personal weapons" (the FBI term) is meaningless.

The attitude that if someone insults you or follows you or makes you uncomfortable you have the right to hit them is immature and thuggish. Unfortunately, that attitude is prevalent these days in a cross-section of young people of all races and backgrounds. Again, hopefully some will learn from this incident.


Oh, I didn't realize that stalking wasn't means for any need of self-defense or fear of any sort.

Those ladies who call the cops when they're stalked is totally uncalled for. You don't need to defend from stalking! Man, if only people knew that. The world would be such a better place. Well, from here on out, I'll let all of my stalkers continue stalking me. Especially when they're stalking me at night, where physical contact could be imminent!

Also, not to mention that deadly force wasn't necessary at all. Zimmerman is huge compared to that kid. The kid was 100% unarmed. No actual weapon, no makeshift weapon, anything. He was 158lbs. Zimmerman, while although 4 inches shorter, was 204lbs. There's absolutely no reason for him to have used deadly force. He could've just sat on the kid, or something. Some way to hold him down while the police got there, he was totally capable of. Nope. The gun was obviously the best bet for a 158-pound, 17 year old kid, walking home with a tea and Skittles.

Edited by digs due to quote pyramid
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Posted 7/23/13

Mysharonaa wrote:



From the very law cited by Zimmerman in his defense:
" However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;

If you are stalking me, I have reasonable cause to believe it is for the purpose of committing a felony assault (or worse) based on what usually happens to people who are being stalked. By the letter of this law, I would therefore have legal justification to use force up to and including deadly force.

So yes, I do have the right to punch you in the head and beat you down on the sidewalk in that situation. I am obligated to stop if you withdraw from physical contact and clearly indicate a desire to withdraw and terminate the use of force; but in practice it's hard to tell when that's happening. And if you're dead, you can't contradict my claims that no such attempt was made.

Just like Trayvon couldn't contradict Zimmerman's claims about who initiated the assault.


How can being followed by a stranger be provocation? THINK:


Read what I actually wrote, not the strawman you wish I wrote.


Mysharonaa wrote:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;

^ So according to the law if Zimmerman believes Trayvon was breaking and entering in a neighborhood that had many break ins recently, then according to this he had the right skip over calling the police and simply use deadly force.


With some quibbling over whether or not said belief is reasonable, that's the way the law look on paper. But as I said, if Trayvon had reasonable cause to believe Zimmerman was about to do (which I believe he did, because - like I also said - that's usually the end result of what happens in that scenario), then he was justified as well.

It's a bad law, that looks like it was designed by a vigilante culture grown sick of due process. It's that law I consider the villain in this case.
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Posted 7/23/13

Acoleth wrote:


KaosProphet wrote:

From the very law cited by Zimmerman in his defense:
" However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;

If you are stalking me, I have reasonable cause to believe it is for the purpose of committing a felony assault (or worse) based on what usually happens to people who are being stalked. By the letter of this law, I would therefore have legal justification to use force up to and including deadly force.

So yes, I do have the right to punch you in the head and beat you down on the sidewalk in that situation. I am obligated to stop if you withdraw from physical contact and clearly indicate a desire to withdraw and terminate the use of force; but in practice it's hard to tell when that's happening. And if you're dead, you can't contradict my claims that no such attempt was made.

Just like Trayvon couldn't contradict Zimmerman's claims about who initiated the assault.


Your opinion reminds me of the character in Wagnaria!! who is so afraid of men that she attacks every one she sees.


Your rebuttal reminds me of a character from the Wizard of Oz.


Acoleth wrote:

George Zimmerman acted in self defense after a clear and painful assault. Trayvon Martin reacted like a paranoid thug to a "creepy ass cracka" and I pray to God you never apply your "logic" in real life and repeat his mistake.


Trayvon Martin acted like anyone who has been stalked, harassed and assaulted over his appearance would have. Clearly that's something you've never had to actually deal with; as for me, the last time I followed your logic I was actually assaulted. In broad daylight.

Fortunately I live in Canada. Had it been someplace like Florida, there would very likely have been a gun involved and it would have gone past merely being assaulted.
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Posted 7/23/13 , edited 7/23/13

creepysalad wrote:

Those ladies who call the cops when they're stalked is totally uncalled for. You don't need to defend from stalking! Man, if only people knew that. The world would be such a better place. Well, from here on out, I'll let all of my stalkers continue stalking me. Especially when they're stalking me at night, where physical contact could be imminent!

Also, not to mention that deadly force wasn't necessary at all. Zimmerman is huge compared to that kid. The kid was 100% unarmed. No actual weapon, no makeshift weapon, anything. He was 158lbs. Zimmerman, while although 4 inches shorter, was 204lbs. There's absolutely no reason for him to have used deadly force. He could've just sat on the kid, or something. Some way to hold him down while the police got there, he was totally capable of. Nope. The gun was obviously the best bet for a 158-pound, 17 year old kid, walking home with a tea and Skittles.


See, you stumbled on to the truth here...if Trayvon was afraid he should have called the cops. He had plenty of time to do so, or to simply go home, and if he had done so rather than attacking Zimmerman, he would be alive today. As far as their stature is concerned, I don't know about you, but I've seen pudgy short guys get their ass kicked by slender tall guys on several occasions. Also, 15-17 year old "kids" commit murder quite frequently in this country... are you seriously not aware of that? And as the FBI data shows, it is very possible to be killed by an unarmed assailant, because it happens hundreds of times each year.


KaosProphet wrote:

Trayvon Martin acted like anyone who has been stalked, harassed and assaulted over his appearance would have. Clearly that's something you've never had to actually deal with; as for me, the last time I followed your logic I was actually assaulted. In broad daylight.

Fortunately I live in Canada. Had it been someplace like Florida, there would very likely have been a gun involved and it would have gone past merely being assaulted.


I'm sorry that happened to you, and you should consider that perhaps that experience makes it difficult for you to be objective about the Zimmerman case.

The fact that you followed my logic in the situation means that Martin did not act like "anyone" in the same situation. I'm guessing that you did not initiate the actual violence in your situation. So in your case YOU were George Zimmerman, and the assailants were Martin. Martin, according to the young lady he was on the phone with, 'profiled' George Zimmerman as a 'creepy ass cracka' and then she suggested that Zimmerman might be a rapist. After that, Martin attacked the man.

I'm pretty much done on this topic, but seriously...teenage males need to learn to control themselves. No matter what you or I think of George Zimmerman's actions, all the evidence seems to indicate that Trayvon Martin would be alive right now if he had simply gone home, or called the cops, or explained himself to Zimmerman. He's dead because his first response to an uncomfortable situation was violence.
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AHTL 
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Posted 7/23/13
From what I understand, George Zimmer man is simply a nice man who happens to be a racist coward who enjoys carrying weapons at night.


And lets be honest, this was a calculated move even if it is nice.

"Geez, everyone is hating on me for killing that kid... If only an opportunity to help someone would arise, then I could convince everyone of how nice I actually am!"
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Posted 7/23/13
The article said "No one was reported to be injured," so it doesn't seem like these people were in grave danger. Plus it doesn't even say how much Zimmerman contributed to the actual rescue of these people!

For all we know, he could have just brushed some glass out of the way while his friend did the actual "rescuing."
zirito 
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Posted 7/23/13
Wait...i'm new here.... so, there's a place on these forums where we can talk about this stuff?

That's awesome because what I'd really like to see is an anime about Zimmerman and Trayvon
It could be a few episodes about their lives leading up to the event itself. The witness testimony that supports both sides could actually be used. It pretty much only becomes contradicting right before the fight breaks out. They can end the anime there to avoid taking sides, black out the screen, play an eerie ambient sound, roll some credits for a few seconds, then blast a gunshot sound. Roll some more credits, then switch back to anime to show Zimmerman leaving the scene in a cop car as he's facing out the window to see Trayvon's body (now in an ambulance? or still on the ground? being tended by EMTs). Have him handcuffed in the back of the police vehicle to make it more dramatic.
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Posted 7/23/13

Acoleth wrote:


creepysalad wrote:

Those ladies who call the cops when they're stalked is totally uncalled for. You don't need to defend from stalking! Man, if only people knew that. The world would be such a better place. Well, from here on out, I'll let all of my stalkers continue stalking me. Especially when they're stalking me at night, where physical contact could be imminent!

Also, not to mention that deadly force wasn't necessary at all. Zimmerman is huge compared to that kid. The kid was 100% unarmed. No actual weapon, no makeshift weapon, anything. He was 158lbs. Zimmerman, while although 4 inches shorter, was 204lbs. There's absolutely no reason for him to have used deadly force. He could've just sat on the kid, or something. Some way to hold him down while the police got there, he was totally capable of. Nope. The gun was obviously the best bet for a 158-pound, 17 year old kid, walking home with a tea and Skittles.


See, you stumbled on to the truth here...if Trayvon was afraid he should have called the cops. He had plenty of time to do so, or to simply go home, and if he had done so rather than attacking Zimmerman, he would be alive today.


Zimmerman had called the cops himself, and wasn't waiting for them. How the hell would they have arrived faster if Trayvon also called them? Answer is that they wouldn't. Go home? That's allegedly what he was doing in the first place, and the whole reason Zimmerman didn't wait for the cops himself was because he didn't want the "hoodlum" to get away. He got out of the car to stop Trayvon from going wherever Trayvon was going. Both your options are now off the table. So what's left from Trayvon's position - let the big angry man get the drop on you?

But even setting that aside: how can you say that Martin should have called the cops, without also acknowledging that Zimmerman should have waited for the cops that he did call? As the dispatcher for those very cops specifically told him to do?


Acoleth wrote:


KaosProphet wrote:

Trayvon Martin acted like anyone who has been stalked, harassed and assaulted over his appearance would have. Clearly that's something you've never had to actually deal with; as for me, the last time I followed your logic I was actually assaulted. In broad daylight.

Fortunately I live in Canada. Had it been someplace like Florida, there would very likely have been a gun involved and it would have gone past merely being assaulted.


I'm sorry that happened to you, and you should consider that perhaps that experience makes it difficult for you to be objective about the Zimmerman case.


If being able to see both sides of the situation isn't "objective" enough for you, then objectivity is poorly defined. And if I'm having difficulty being 'objective' about the situation because I was in something similar a few years ago, don't you think Trayvon would have had even more trouble while it was happening?

The point is that, having been in a situation similar to what Trayvon's was, I cannot fault him for his actions. In the end they got him killed, but from *his* perspective I don't see how he could have known that doing otherwise wouldn't have gotten him killed either.


Acoleth wrote:
The fact that you followed my logic in the situation means that Martin did not act like "anyone" in the same situation.


According to most everyone else I've talked to about it, it means I was a pussy. They all told me I should have done what Trayvon did - some even going so far as to suggest lethal force so that my side of the story would go unchallenged. (I disagree with going that far, but at the same time once the adrenaline is going it can be hard to actually stop.) That could have just been macho posturing on their part, but even still that's only contrasting what they think should have been done against what they would have actually done.

Of course, this happened a few years before the Trayvon/Zimmerman incident so we didn't have that context coloring the situation. Maybe their advice would be different today.


Acoleth wrote:
So in your case YOU were George Zimmerman, and the assailants were Martin.


I'm the one who was going home with a bag of skittles and a soft-drink, my assailant was the one following the 'suspicious looking character.' The only relevant difference I see between me and Martin, is that Martin acted where I froze up.

So why did Martin act when I didn't? I'm thinking it's because he was raised up in the kind of culture that would pass a law which explicitly states he was under no obligation to either retreat or wait for the cops, while I was raised in a culture that explicitly states an 'obligation to retreat' as my first course of action.

So once again, it's not really Zimmerman I find at fault here; it's SYG legislation and the culture behind it.
Posted 7/23/13
Hey, maybe he's a changed man.

Even though he just murdered somebody not too long ago.
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Posted 7/23/13
look at the case this way: if zimmermen was black and shot a white 17 year old this case wouldnt be as "serious" as it is now,
but becouse he killed a "black" 17 year old in "self defense" he is a racist and now people wont to put civil rights charges on him.
it dosent matter if he went there with a illegal gun or anything else. what he did wasnt wrong or racist .
Posted 7/23/13 , edited 7/23/13
Haters are going to find whatever reason floats their boat to hate on this latest incident with Zimmerman. Oh well, that's on the haters.

At least Zimmerman had the guts to continue to live his life amidst all the reverse racism and death threats. Kudos to him.

The rest of society needs to move on and get a life, which they're obviously lacking.
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Posted 7/23/13

LynnTerra wrote:

Haters are going to find whatever reason floats their boat to hate on this latest incident with Zimmerman. Oh well, that's on the haters.

At least Zimmerman had the guts to continue to live his life amidst all the reverse racism and death threats. Kudos to him.

The rest of society needs to move on and get a life, which they're obviously lacking.


agreed
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Posted 7/23/13
"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight."

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