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Post Reply Noah's arc story- fact or fiction?
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Posted 8/20/13 , edited 8/20/13

Syndicaidramon wrote:


AcadGlade wrote:


Plena wrote:

Well, in regard to having enough food, there were a lot of animals on board and sometime sacrifices have to be made.

Anyways, the Noah story is just a ripoff of earlier 'flood myths' from Sumerian and Babylonian mythology. The story is likely just an exaggerated account of a real event, with some crazy over the top storytelling included.



Do you have any facts or is this just your opinion?

The record of Noah and his family, their building the Ark, their gathering provisions for themselves and the animals, Noah's Preaching and and their going into the ark and the flood, Is NOT some ripoff and you haven't shown a sherd of evidence to support your contention.


Short answer: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_story_of_Noah's_Ark_written
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth#Sumerian


So, I'm to take as fact, opinions, speculations, of faithless nay sayers, who don't see that a great majority of the flood stories told by many different cultures all have a basis in fact, not speculation, and the fact that it was some time between the time of Noah and his family to the time of Nimrod, shows that mankind had grown considerably before the work on the tower of Babylon was stopped and that mankind spread all abroad on the earth.

Besides if you call quoting wikipedia, research, or rather objective research, I'm saddened.
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Posted 8/21/13

AcadGlade wrote:


kaptainkooleio wrote:

I never really have believed in any of the stories written in the bible. Honestly the growth of Humanity through two humans seems unlikely without defects so why should I believe that a big wooden boat saved us from some flooding?

In opinion, I think that during that time, there was a great flood but some fool new it was coming so devised a vessel to carry his village. Once the flood came and the villagers were saved, he was praised highly and his story was written. And over the years his story has been Highly embellished


But It wasn't a big wooden boat, I was a BIG WOODEN BOX. I mean, why would the Ark need a bow or a stearn? or a rudder?


The point of the matter is you understood I was talking about the 'Ark'. And the technicality behind the arks design should be irrelevant since its just a story that is most likely a work of fiction, made to inspire pious ambition so fuck logic
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Posted 8/21/13

kaptainkooleio wrote:


AcadGlade wrote:


kaptainkooleio wrote:

I never really have believed in any of the stories written in the bible. Honestly the growth of Humanity through two humans seems unlikely without defects so why should I believe that a big wooden boat saved us from some flooding?

In opinion, I think that during that time, there was a great flood but some fool new it was coming so devised a vessel to carry his village. Once the flood came and the villagers were saved, he was praised highly and his story was written. And over the years his story has been Highly embellished


But It wasn't a big wooden boat, I was a BIG WOODEN BOX. I mean, why would the Ark need a bow or a stearn? or a rudder?


The point of the matter is you understood I was talking about the 'Ark'. And the technicality behind the arks design should be irrelevant since its just a story that is most likely a work of fiction, made to inspire pious ambition so fuck logic



ARK



1. Noah’s ark was the provision by which forefathers of all mankind survived the global Deluge of 2370-2369 B.C.E. (See DELUGE; NOAH No. 1.) Detailed instructions were given to Noah by Jehovah as to its size, shape, design for light and ventilation, and materials to be used for its construction.—Ge 6:14-16.

Design and Size.

The ark (Heb., te·vah′; Gr., ki·bo·tos′) was a rectangular chestlike vessel presumably having square corners and a flat bottom. It needed no rounded bottom or sharp bow to cut rapidly through the water; it required no steering; its only functions were to be watertight and to stay afloat. A vessel so shaped is very stable, cannot be easily capsized, and contains about one third more storage space than ships of conventional design. There was a door provided in the side of the ark for loading and unloading the cargo.

In size the ark was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. Conservatively calculating the cubit as 44.5 cm (17.5 in.) (some think the ancient cubit was nearer 56 or 61 cm), the ark measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.), less than half the length of the ocean liner Queen Elizabeth 2. This proportion of length to width (6 to 1) is used by modern naval architects. This gave the ark approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) in gross volume. It is estimated that such a vessel would have a displacement nearly equal to that of the mighty 269-m (883 ft) Titanic of this 20th century. No cargo vessel of ancient times even slightly resembled the ark in its colossal size. Internally strengthened by adding two floors, the three decks thus provided gave a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space.

“You will make a tso′har [roof; or, window] for the ark,” Noah was told. (Ge 6:16) Just what this was or how it was constructed is not altogether clear. Some scholars think tso′har is related to light and so they translate it “window” (KJ, Mo), “light” (AS, JP), “a place for light” (Ro). Others, however, associate tso′har with a later Arabic root meaning “back (of the hand),” “back (of a beast),” “deck (of a ship),” that is, the part away from the ground or water, and for this reason translate it “roof.” (AT, RS, JB) This tso′har, Noah was told, was to be completed “to the extent of a cubit upward.”—Ge 6:16.

It could be, therefore, that the tso′har provided for adequate light and ventilation, not just a single cubit-square “peephole,” but an opening a cubit in height near the roof and extending around the four sides to give an opening of nearly 140 sq m (1,500 sq ft). On the other hand, while still allowing an ample opening for ventilation under the roof or elsewhere, the roof could have had slightly angled sides. Regarding this possibility James F. Armstrong wrote in Vetus Testamentum (Leiden, 1960, p. 333): “‘Unto a cubit upward you shall finish it’ is difficult to understand when sohar is translated either ‘light (= window)’ or even ‘(flat) roof’. If, however, a gable-type roof be postulated, the ‘one cubit upward’ can refer to the elevation of the crease of the roof above the level of the tops of the walls. In modern architectural terms, the ‘one cubit’ would be the height of the kingposts between which the ridgepiece is laid. . . . According to the argument that has been presented, the roof of Noah’s ark was conceived as having a four per-cent pitch (1 cubit elevation — 25 cubits from wall to ridge), quite adequate to permit the water of the rains to flow off.”

Of what this huge ark was to be built was made plain by Jehovah: “Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree [literally, trees of gopher].” (Ge 6:14) This resinous wood here prescribed is thought by some to be cypress or a similar tree. In that part of the world what today is called cypress was in abundant supply; it was particularly favored for shipbuilding by the Phoenicians and by Alexander the Great, as it is even down to the present time; and it is especially resistant to water and decay. Doors and posts made of cypress are reported to have lasted 1,100 years. In addition, Noah was told not merely to caulk the seams but to “cover [the ark] inside and outside with tar.

Ample Carrying Capacity.
The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.

Please read the following very carefully.
These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.

Five months after the Deluge began, “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” not likely, however, atop the uppermost peak (nearly 5,165 m; 16,950 ft), but on suitable terrain where everyone aboard lived comfortably for some months more. Finally, after a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.—Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14.

The preceding information was from " Insight on the Scriptures "

The above information was just about the Ark, But as explained in the second paragraph, that the illustration shown by the Thread Owner is inaccurate, As described, It was basically a BIG BOX, It didn't need a bow or keel or rudder.

The Bible's accounting of the World Wide Flood is accurate, you also have to remember, the mountains and valleys, as we have them today was not present back then, as for the water volume where did it go? How much volume of frozen water does antartica have?
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Posted 8/23/13

So, I'm to take as fact, opinions, speculations, of faithless nay sayers, who don't see that a great majority of the flood stories told by many different cultures all have a basis in fact, not speculation, and the fact that it was some time between the time of Noah and his family to the time of Nimrod, shows that mankind had grown considerably before the work on the tower of Babylon was stopped and that mankind spread all abroad on the earth.

Besides if you call quoting wikipedia, research, or rather objective research, I'm saddened.

First of all, please don't use the "wikipedia can't be trusted" argument. It's bogus.
For one, the site is regulated with frequent intervals, not to mention that there are links provided to third party sources. They're referenced by those little blue numbers.


Second:
These are not speculations. We know that these are stories that exist elsewhere. Stories that were written long before the story of Noah was written. There is no doubt about that.
That they have a basis in fact is probably true. Though a basis does not equal accurate description. I have no doubt that there was a big flood somewhere in the middle east at one point that killed a lot of people, but that is a wholly different thing than a world-wide flood that kills everyone.

According to the bible, Nimrod was the grand-son of Noah. There is absolutely no way that the population had grown to the point that the inhabitants could go and populate every corner of the world.

We know that around 2000 BC, the world population was around 27 million. http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/history/world-population-growth.htm
There is absolutely no way that the population could grow from 8 people to 27 million in a mere 350 years.
For that to happen, it would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. Which is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world in our world today.
It's simply not possible.
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Posted 8/23/13

Syndicaidramon wrote:


So, I'm to take as fact, opinions, speculations, of faithless nay sayers, who don't see that a great majority of the flood stories told by many different cultures all have a basis in fact, not speculation, and the fact that it was some time between the time of Noah and his family to the time of Nimrod, shows that mankind had grown considerably before the work on the tower of Babylon was stopped and that mankind spread all abroad on the earth.

Besides if you call quoting wikipedia, research, or rather objective research, I'm saddened.


First of all, please don't use the "wikipedia can't be trusted" argument. It's bogus.
For one, the site is regulated with frequent intervals, not to mention that there are links provided to third party sources. They're referenced by those little blue numbers.


Second:
These are not speculations. We know that these are stories that exist elsewhere. Stories that were written long before the story of Noah was written. There is no doubt about that.
That they have a basis in fact is probably true. Though a basis does not equal accurate description. I have no doubt that there was a big flood somewhere in the middle east at one point that killed a lot of people, but that is a wholly different thing than a world-wide flood that kills everyone.

According to the bible, Nimrod was the grand-son of Noah. There is absolutely no way that the population had grown to the point that the inhabitants could go and populate every corner of the world.

We know that around 2000 BC, the world population was around 27 million. http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/history/world-population-growth.htm
There is absolutely no way that the population could grow from 8 people to 27 million in a mere 350 years.
For that to happen, it would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. Which is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world in our world today.
It's simply not possible.

we know? you forget that as man's decline in how many years he was alive, individually , at the time of noah was considerably more than our modern time, on top of that Jehovah had not laid upon man the mandate that said he was to have only one wife, that came latter, so besides those mentioned in the bible, there were many who were not..

However the insight book has some reasonable explaination of the Deluge.

DELUGE

The catastrophic destruction of men and animals by an overwhelming flood in the days of Noah, 2370 B.C.E. This greatest cataclysm in all human history was sent by Jehovah because wicked men had filled the earth with violence. The survival of righteous Noah and his family, eight souls in all, together with selected animals, was by means of a huge ark, or chest.—Ge 6:9–9:19; 1Pe 3:20; see ARK No. 1; NOAH No. 1.

Extent of the Deluge. This was no local flash flood or cloudburst. In fact, the Greek word used in the Bible to refer to the Flood, or Deluge, is ka·ta·kly·smos′, a cataclysm. (Lu 17:27, ftn) Local floods come and go in a matter of days; this one lasted over a year, the greater portion of which was required for the water to subside. How unreasonable to believe that Noah spent perhaps 50 or 60 years building a huge vessel of approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) for the survival of his family and a few animals through a mere local flood! If only a comparatively small area was affected, why the need of bringing into the ark specimens of “every living creature of every sort of flesh” in order to “preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth”? (Ge 6:19; 7:3) Definitely this was a global deluge, the like of which had never occurred before nor has since. “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to 15 cubits [c. 6.5 m; 22 ft] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Ge 7:19, 20) “The end of all flesh has come before me,” Jehovah said, hence “I will wipe every existing thing that I have made off the surface of the ground.” And it was just so. “Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died . . . only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.”—Ge 6:13; 7:4, 22, 23.

Timing of the Deluge. The Deluge did not come suddenly without warning. Years of time were spent building the ark, time that Noah the “preacher of righteousness” also used in warning that wicked generation. (2Pe 2:5) Finally the time limit was up “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” The “male and female of every sort of flesh” had been brought into the ark with Noah’s family, as well as a sufficient food supply for all, and “after that Jehovah shut the door.” Then “the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11, 16) There was an incessant torrential downpour for “forty days and forty nights”; “the waters continued overwhelming the earth” a hundred and fifty days. (Ge 7:4, 12, 24) Five months after the downpour began, the ark “came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.” (Ge 8:4) It was nearly two and a half months later before “the tops of the mountains appeared” (Ge 8:5), another three months before Noah removed the ark’s covering to see that the earth had practically drained (Ge 8:13), and nearly two months later when the door was opened and the survivors set foot on dry ground once again.—Ge 8:14-18.

Noah and his family entered the ark in the 600th year of Noah’s life, the 2nd month (October-November), the 17th day. (Ge 7:11) One year later (a year consisting of 360 days) was the 17th day, 2nd month, 601st year. Ten days after that would be the 27th day of the 2nd month, when they came out; a total of 370 days, or parts of 371 separate days, spent in the ark. (Ge 8:13, 14) In the log that Noah kept, it appears he used months of 30 days each, 12 of them equaling 360 days. In this way he avoided all the complicated fractions involved had he used strictly lunar months consisting of slightly more than 29 1⁄2 days. That such calculations were used in the account is evident from the fact that a five-month period consisted of 150 days.—Ge 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4.

The Floodwaters. It has been said that if all the moisture in the atmosphere were suddenly released as rain it would not amount to even a couple of inches if spread over the earth’s surface. So from what source was this vast deluge of Noah’s day? According to the Genesis account, God said to Noah: “Here I [Jehovah] am bringing the deluge [or, “heavenly ocean”; Heb., mab·bul′] of waters upon the earth.” (Ge 6:17, ftn) Describing what happened, the next chapter says: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11) So overwhelming was the Deluge that “all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered.”—Ge 7:19.

Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His almighty power could easily accomplish it.

Since, as the Genesis account says, “all the tall mountains” were covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said that “there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.” (National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover “all the tall mountains,” as the inspired record says.—Ge 7:19.

Effect on the Earth. With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust is relatively thin (estimated at between 30 km [20 mi] and 160 km [100 mi] thick), stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62.

What evidence proves that there truly was a global deluge?

Other possible evidence of a drastic change: Remains of mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth. Some of these were found in Siberian cliffs; others were preserved in Siberian and Alaskan ice. (PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 328) In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found. The fossil remains of many other animals, such as lions, tigers, bears, and elk, have been found in common strata, which may indicate that all of these were destroyed simultaneously. Some have pointed to such finds as definite physical proof of a rapid change in climate and sudden destruction caused by a universal flood. Others, however, favor explanations for the death of these animals that do not involve an earth-wide catastrophe. Proof that the Flood occurred is not dependent on such fossils and frozen animal remains.

Flood Legends. Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, Jehovah confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.—CHART, Vol. 1, p. 328.

These folklore accounts of the Deluge agree with some major features of the Biblical account: (1) a place of refuge for a few survivors, (2) an otherwise global destruction of life by water, and (3) a seed of mankind preserved. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states: “Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.

In times past, certain primitive people (in Australia, Egypt, Fiji, Society Islands, Peru, Mexico, and other places) preserved a possible remnant of these traditions about the Flood by observing in November a ‘Feast of Ancestors’ or a ‘Festival of the Dead.’ Such customs reflected a memory of the destruction caused by the Deluge. According to the book Life and Work at the Great Pyramid, the festival in Mexico was held on the 17th of November because they “had a tradition that at that time the world had been previously destroyed; and they dreaded lest a similar catastrophe would, at the end of a cycle, annihilate the human race.” (By Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Edinburgh, 1867, Vol. II, pp. 390, 391) Notes the book The Worship of the Dead: “This festival [of the dead] is . . . held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (By J. Garnier, London, 1904, p. 4) Interestingly, the Bible reports that the Flood began “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” (Ge 7:11) That “second month” corresponds to the latter part of October and the first part of November on our calendar.

Scriptural Confirmation. Stronger evidence of the historicalness of the Deluge than the pagan traditions of primitive people is the endorsement other Bible writers gave under inspiration. The only other place where the same Hebrew word (mab·bul′, deluge) occurs outside the Genesis account is in David’s melody where he describes Jehovah as seated “upon the deluge.” (Ps 29:10) However, other writers make reference to and confirm the Genesis account, as, for example, Isaiah. (Isa 54:9) Ezekiel also endorses the historicity of Noah. (Eze 14:14, 18, 20) Peter draws heavily upon the Deluge account in his letters. (1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:5; 3:5, 6) Paul testifies to the great faith Noah displayed in constructing the ark for the survival of his household. (Heb 11:7) Luke lists Noah in the lineage of Messiah’s forebears.—Lu 3:36.

Even more significant is what Jesus said about the days of the Deluge, as recorded by both Luke and Matthew. Far more than just a simple endorsement of the veracity of the Deluge account, Jesus’ words show the pictorial and prophetic significance of those ancient events. In answer to the disciples’ question, “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus said, among other things: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Mt 24:3, 37-39; Lu 17:26, 27) There is, therefore, abundant evidence from the inspired Holy Scriptures themselves to support the authenticity and genuineness of the Deluge account. It does not rest on mere traditions of men, on the folklore of primitive people, or on geologic and archaeological findings.
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Posted 8/24/13

AcadGlade
we know? you forget that as man's decline in how many years he was alive, individually , at the time of noah was considerably more than our modern time, on top of that Jehovah had not laid upon man the mandate that said he was to have only one wife, that came latter, so besides those mentioned in the bible, there were many who were not..




I heard this explanation several times growing up. Problem is, it's simply not true. If it was, it would be common knowledge. But it's not.
Look at this graph here:
That's what life expectancy rates throughout history looks like according to the christian beliefs. Now I want you to explain that to me, and to also provide sources to back this up. Sources that are NOT religiously biased.







Merely a retelling of the story that I've heard countless times.
For that, rather than typing out every problem, I'll just post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I225Vcs3X0g
You can find most of the issues I have with the story there. Not all, but most.




AcadGlade
Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His almighty power could easily accomplish it.


This is the Vapor Canopy Hypothesis. Which is an impossibility.
Such a thing would create a created greenhouse effects so immense that the atmosphere on earth would've been extremely how. Close to that of Venus. Which would destroy all life on earth.




AcadGlade
Since, as the Genesis account says, “all the tall mountains” were covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said that “there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.” (National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough water to cover “all the tall mountains,” as the inspired record says.—Ge 7:19.


There is not even close to being enough water on earth to cover the highest mountains.
Mountains do not rise so quickly that the mountains today would've been considerable lower a mere 4000 years ago.
None of these arguments hold water.
And if you think they do, I assume you can provide me some sources. Some modern, up to date sources. Ones that, again, are not religiously biased.





AcadGlade
Effect on the Earth. With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.


Again, I will refer to a wikipedia segment, simply because it presents an easy graph. There are third party sources linked to it if you want to double-check. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time
Nowhere in history has there been average recorded life spans of several hundred years. Ever. The oldest human to ever have been confirmed was no older than 122 years old.
To claim that people lived to be over 600 years old is an outlandish claim.
If you seriously want me to believe this, then you're gonna have to provide some nice, solid evidence for it. Once again, evidence that is not religiously biased.





AcadGlade
With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust is relatively thin (estimated at between 30 km [20 mi] and 160 km [100 mi] thick), stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62.


There is absolutely no way any mountain could rise so tremendously. And even if it could, there is absolutely no evidence for it.
The approximate age for Mt. Everest is 60 million years old.
Not to mention that such a violent change in the continents would also create a worldwide storm so massive that the ark couldn't possibly withstand it.





AcadGlade
Other possible evidence of a drastic change: Remains of mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth. Some of these were found in Siberian cliffs; others were preserved in Siberian and Alaskan ice. (PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 328) In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly.


So?





AcadGlade
Flood Legends. Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, Jehovah confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.—CHART, Vol. 1, p. 328.


No, it's not. It's merely a testament to the fact that good stories go around. Much like the elements in the story of Jesus, which is a story that has been told many times through history, with the same elements, waaaaay before Jesus' time.
To say that it HAS to be because we all have a common ancestor is wishful thinking.





AcadGlade The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.


By this logic, the story of Jesus is actually the story of Horus, the egyptian god.





AcadGlade
Even more significant is what Jesus said about the days of the Deluge, as recorded by both Luke and Matthew. Far more than just a simple endorsement of the veracity of the Deluge account, Jesus’ words show the pictorial and prophetic significance of those ancient events. In answer to the disciples’ question, “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus said, among other things: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Mt 24:3, 37-39; Lu 17:26, 27) There is, therefore, abundant evidence from the inspired Holy Scriptures themselves to support the authenticity and genuineness of the Deluge account. It does not rest on mere traditions of men, on the folklore of primitive people, or on geologic and archaeological findings.


What can be claimed without evidence can be discraded without evidence. And there is no geological or archeological evidence that supports the flood theory.
Traditions and tales of a massive apocalypse amongst various tribes of people throughout history is anecdotal at best.
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I'm sure floods occurred, and those floods may have seemed very "big" to any individual documenting them but I'm also pretty sure all the stories about legendary floods are mythology.
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55 / M / Covina, California
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Posted 8/28/13

Syndicaidramon wrote:


AcadGlade wrote:


Plena wrote:

Well, in regard to having enough food, there were a lot of animals on board and sometime sacrifices have to be made.

Anyways, the Noah story is just a ripoff of earlier 'flood myths' from Sumerian and Babylonian mythology. The story is likely just an exaggerated account of a real event, with some crazy over the top storytelling included.



Do you have any facts or is this just your opinion?

The record of Noah and his family, their building the Ark, their gathering provisions for themselves and the animals, Noah's Preaching and and their going into the ark and the flood, Is NOT some ripoff and you haven't shown a sherd of evidence to support your contention.


Short answer: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_story_of_Noah's_Ark_written
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth#Sumerian


I have an answer to that ma'am,

Writing Before the Flood.

There is no way to establish definitely that some of the histories mentioned in the book of Genesis were committed to writing before the Flood, and the Bible contains no references to pre-Flood writing. However, it should be noted that the building of cities, the development of musical instruments, and the forging of iron and copper tools had their start long before the Flood. (Ge 4:17, 21, 22) Reasonably, therefore, men would have had little difficulty in also developing a method of writing. Since there was only one language originally (which later became known as Hebrew; see HEBREW, II) and since those who continued to speak that language, the Israelites, are known to have used an alphabet, this suggests that alphabetic writing could have existed before the Flood.

Assyrian King Ashurbanipal spoke of reading “inscriptions on stone from the time before the flood.” (Light From the Ancient Past, by J. Finegan, 1959, pp. 216, 217) But these inscriptions may have simply preceded a local flood of considerable proportions or could have been accounts that purported to relate events prior to the Flood. For example, what is termed “The Sumerian King List,” after mentioning that eight kings ruled for 241,000 years, states: “(Then) the Flood swept over (the earth).” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, p. 265) Such record, clearly, is not authentic.

According to Bible chronology, the global Flood of Noah’s day occurred in 2370 B.C.E. Archaeologists have assigned dates earlier than this to numerous clay tablets they have excavated. But these clay tablets are not dated documents. Hence the dates that have been assigned to them are merely conjectural and provide no solid basis for establishing a relationship in time to the Biblical Flood. None of the artifacts that have been excavated are definitely known to date from pre-Flood times. Archaeologists who have assigned items to the pre-Flood period have done so on the basis of findings that, at best, can only be interpreted to give evidence of a great local flood.

Writing After the Flood.

After the confusion of man’s original language at Babel, various systems of writing came into existence. The Babylonians, Assyrians, and other peoples used cuneiform (wedge-shaped) script, which is thought to have been developed by the Sumerians from their pictographic writing. There is evidence that more than one writing system was used at the same time. For example, an ancient Assyrian wall painting depicts two scribes, one making cuneiform impressions on a tablet with a stylus (likely in Akkadian) and the other writing with a brush on a piece of skin or papyrus (possibly in Aramaic). Egyptian hieroglyphic writing consisted of distinct pictorial representations and geometric forms. Though hieroglyphic writing continued to be employed for inscriptions on monuments and wall paintings, two other forms of writing (first hieratic and then demotic) came into use. (See EGYPT, EGYPTIAN.) In nonalphabetic systems, a pictorial representation (or its later, often irrecognizable, linear or cursive form) could stand for the object depicted, an idea conveyed by the object, or another word or syllable having the same pronunciation. By way of illustration, a simple drawing of an eye could be used in English to designate an “eye,” the personal pronoun “I,” the verb “see,” the noun “sea,” or the initial syllable of “season.”

The alphabetic system employed by the Israelites was phonetic, with each written consonant symbol representing a particular consonant sound. The vowel sounds, however, had to be supplied by the reader, the context determining the word intended in the case of terms having the same spelling but a different combination of vowel sounds. This posed no real problem; even modern Hebrew magazines, newspapers, and books omit vowel points almost entirely.
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Posted 8/29/13 , edited 8/31/13
Even as a former Christian, even before I stopped being one, I never believed the story of Noah's Ark.

Fiction. It would take untold effort to gather every possible species that we see today, let alone supply them with food for so long and prevent them from attacking each other. Different animals native to different locations would require Noah to travel everywhere to capture them. This would also mean that tons of insects would have gone extinct unless Noah could identify all the separate species, some of which are hard for even specialists today to identify at a glance. Many such insects are also extremely tiny. Many are also very dependent on certain environmental factors and conditions and would not be able to survive when out of their habitats for too long. How would Noah house the eusocial and fast-reproducing swarming insects? How would insects be prevented from consuming one another? What about aquatic insects that can't tolerate saltwater that need plants in swift, shallow waters? And not just insects needed to be gathered but bugs and arachnids, too. And certain delicate fungi that have symbiotic/parasitic relationships with our invertebrate friends. Noah would have to be intimately familiar with the huge variance of different insect life cycles to meet their needs and keep them alive.

Aboard his ship, Noah and his tiny crew would have to deal with not only feeding themselves and the hundreds of thousands of animal species, but also disposing of their waste. It would be simple enough to dispose of it by throwing it off the ship, but how long would it take 8 people to clean up the manure and urine of hundreds of thousands of animals every day? Because of the constant presence of moisture (the ark was surrounded by the sea and there was plenty of rain), decay would set in rapidly.The stench in the ark must have been something awful. Not cleaning out the fecal matter and urine regularly would mean that harmful organisms would be able to cause all sorts of diseases, sickening or killing animal and human alike.

What about after the flood and the emptying of the ark? You can't just release all the animals at once. Decades or centuries would be needed for populations to stabilize. Quick-reproducing species would have to be regulated by man. They'd prey on each other immediately. Some need very specific environments, such as deserts and thick forests that probably would not be ready to inhabit after a flood of such magnitude. Plants that rely on insects for pollination would be all but extinct, even if they survived the flood there wouldn't be enough pollinators. Admittedly, I know nothing about climatology but I am well-versed in entomology.

Of course, if really Christian, a person would probably say that God created more stuff or that there was some sort of divine protection. And this does nothing to prove anything.
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You know what, if it existed, I always thought that it'd be a human spacecraft rather than an alien one. And then afterwards the technology to build it was lost during the apocalypse, especially after the ark was probably stripped clean of all that tech to kick-start a colony.

I wouldn't be shocked to discover that there was a high technology society in the past that was totally destroyed by an apocalypse (possibly including a big flood, either by itself or alongside other things) and the Ark was an attempt to preserve everything that could be preserved and such.
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Posted 8/30/13
I think the level of unlikeliness that we humans as a species haven't eradicated the stone-age belief of an Arc and creationism, is far higher than the possibility that such a thing could have existed.
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Rationally speaking, Noah's Ark is a ridiculous fairy tale.
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22 / F / US
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With God, everything is possible. That's the only reason why I believe that everything I read in the Bible is a FACT because God is perfect and even if the Bible was written by many prophets who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God and there's no mistake with that .

There is a story where Jesus fed five thousand people with just five loaves of bread and two fish so the Noahs arc was made with God's help and they were protected for one year by God, no big deal for the Creator of the whole universe and planet earth.
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Which version of the Bible do you believe in kirika? In at least some of them, it is said that there are things that god cannot do.
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