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Original Full Achemist animation looks better than Brotherhood?
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Posted 8/14/13

zipzo Long Post Stuff... <.<


That is a interesting argument... However, I disagree with about all of it. SPOILERS AHOY! PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN EITHER SERIES! (Well, you can, just do not blame me. XP) Also... I apologize ahead of time for this wall of text.



Really, though, both are solid series. Just don't expect me to buy into the thought that Brotherhood is in ANY way inferior to the original FMA, because I sure as hell don't see it, and I went into both pretty much blind. Heck, I wasn't even excited or even cared about Brotherhood when I first heard about it, but now it is one of my all time favorite anime series just because the story and the characters were all done infinitely better. Made me obsess of the whole franchise for quite a while, and it made me read the manga, which may very well be one of the greatest Shonen Series ever written in my view. The only thing I will agree with is the rushed beginning of Brotherhood. However, that meant little in the long run just because everything else was perfect.
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13

Orga777 wrote:
The only thing I will agree with is the rushed beginning of Brotherhood. However, that meant little in the long run just because everything else was perfect.


EXACTLY.
I don't really get this guys train of thought... most of the characters that were shown in fma were filler compared to brotherhood.
I actually like both myself for obvious reasons but even edward and alphonses characters were infinitely superior in brotherhood. =/
Even if they had a smaller focus you actually felt more life and pain behind there characters.

That's what brotherhood was all about for christ sakes lol. And it actually fit the theme that full metal alchemist originally intended.
All of the characters come together to mold and shape who alphonse and edward are even
darius, jerso, heinkel, zampano have strong characters for fuck sakes.
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13

Orga777 wrote:


zipzo Long Post Stuff... <.<


That is a interesting argument... However, I disagree with about all of it. SPOILERS AHOY! PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN EITHER SERIES! (Well, you can, just do not blame me. XP) Also... I apologize ahead of time for this wall of text.

Let me put it this way. I watched the original series first just like most people here probably did. I did not watch Brotherhood till the first two volumes were released on DVD over here in the States, and that only happened because I questioned whether I should even bother with it at all. Suffice to say, I am glad I had the whim to buy it and get into the series. Did not get into the manga till it was finished and only after I saw all of Brotherhood. Anyway, watched the original every week on Adult Swim till the whole experience finally ended. And for the most part, I loved the series. Then the ending happened. That was not an ending. It came out of no where and the explanation on what the gate was, was so unbelievably STUPID that I just started to wonder what the heck was going on and WHY it suddenly went in this direction. Now, FMA came out while I was still in High School when I saw the series, and I still questioned why some crazy nonsense like connecting with "the real world." I HATE when series try to do something that unbelievably asinine. Other than this... moronic turn of events, what they changed was not all that bad. Also, the conclusion was unsatisfying to the nth degree. Do NOT get me started on what ever bull crap Shamballa tried to pull... Because, holy hell, that would take all freaking night for just that stupid, stupid movie.

In Brotherhood, we get an actual satisfying ending that actually makes SENSE. No dumb connection with 20th Century Germany here, folks! Yeah, Father's plan was over-the-top. HOWEVER, this is a Shonen series at heart, so this should not be an issue. The real thing is that Father's plan had PURPOSE and there was actual weight behind what he was doing. The actual ambitions to throw the world into chaos to make his final plan come to light was there from the freaking beginning! It didn't come out of no where and for some stupid reason. The way Edward did what he did at the end for the sake of his brother is even more impactful than the original series (and it made more sense.) We also get a conclusion that does not feel forced. All the plot elements were tied up perfectly, all the characters grew from where they first started (and I mean ALL of them.) Everything felt more polished and smooth story wise.


No amount of horse shitting and over analytic observation is going to make Brotherhood have an effective ending. I made it quite clear that both endings leave something to be desired in some way, so it's ridiculous and oblivious to bother comparing the two...one was an original idea, the other was a typical happy smappy everybody hug ending. One had a convoluted mechanism (2003), the other made the entire series pointless and was the epitome of Deus Ex Machina. Rarely do you often see an entire series end on a Deus Ex Machina but Brotherhood tried to do it in glorious style. Pathetic, really.


Let us talk about the villains, now. Dante was dumb (literally). Her final plan was one of the most convoluted and foolish reasons for anything ever. What the hell was her goal again? To get a new boyfriend because Hohenheim dumped her and to be "immortal?" The fauck? Also, her controlling a bunch of different Homunculi from different backgrounds makes little to no sense. I just... could not stand her that much. I will give the series one thing, though. The way they changed the Homunculi for the original series was done very well. Them being human transmutations is a clever way to do things. This was one of the main reasons I still like the show.

Father, on the other hand, is a MUCH better villain. Not only in terms of sheer villainy, but in terms of ambition. He wanted to be come god just for the sake of knowing everything. This was because of being part of the gate. He was able to break free from his prison, and just wanted to learn more about everything. A true seeker of knowledge. However, he saw humanity no better than pawns, and mostly just worthless waste. It all makes sense for the type of character they were going for. Him also giving birth to all the Homunculi also makes perfect sense. Yeah, it is not the most original thing, BUT, it is not like they did not have their own personalities, character arcs, and quirks that were present in the original series. I found all of them to be infinitely superior to the previous versions when it comes to the animes. ESPECIALLY Greed, Wrath, Envy, and Pride. All of which had infinitely more character than their original selves. Sloth was distinctly better in the original, however just because that was a fantastic moment for Ed's character growth in the original series that was done pretty damn well since that was his mother's homunculus.


You know what, I will agree with you here in that Father is much more cunning and intimidating antagonist than Dante. However, to compare the two is to miss the point of the 2003 series completely, unfortunately for you. The true enemy in the 2003 series is that of equal exchange and the effect it has on our protagonists lives. That is one of the beautiful parts of the first series, in that it makes an enemy out of the concept itself. Dante is simply another piece on the board playing with those rules to her advantage. In my opinion, way more beautifully complex and imaginative than a single, evil (for who knows what reason) entity who wants to dominate the planet just because they're evil. Man, we surely don't have enough of those, do we?


Then we have Kimblee who is a JOKE in the original series. He is flat, boring, and completely lacks any real traits besides being a kill crazy bastard that loves violence. That is his personality in a nut shell. He is as dumb as a brick, too. While in Brotherhood (and in turn the manga) he is not even close to the same character. He loves violence, but he is a philosopher, gentleman, and has an actual personality that makes everyone around him treat him with both fear and respect. He is a calm, calculating character that is not only a good fighter, but is very cunning and intelligent. He also has his own personal moral standard and philosophical code of being true to ones self and seeing everything through to the end. This is why he likes the Elric Brothers in a twisted way. The only similarity between these two characters is the name.


You're right, Kimblee doesn't get as much lime light in the 2003 series. To some this could be a bad thing, but to others (me included) this was of no harm to the series. At the end of the day Kimblee was created to be killed by Scar. Everything about what Kimblee has done and his personality was meant to have him tagged for dead by the hands of our Isballan anti-hero. His "extended" role in brotherhood could simply be considered extraneous, and not even close to necessary. Why exactly do you need more Kimbly?


These are the main problems with the original series that Brotherhood (and manga) did infinitely better. However, there is a ton more that I can go into that is also better. Like how the Philosopher's Stone works is better in Brotherhood, how it is made makes more sense, the bloodbath of the Ishvallan War is much better told, Marco's part in the story isn't freaking wasted, the side characters of Ling, Lan Fan, Fu, Mei, General Armstrong, Miles, Buccaneer, the four Chimeras and so on are all superior than what side characters existed in the first series. Winry was much more prominent and has an actual personality that is much more effectively explored while she was mostly shoved to the side in the first series. Hohenheim also has a much better story than what crappy nonsense they pulled out of their ass in the original series (which was super lazy.) Mustang's crew had better interactions with the main cast, and how they were utilized to try to break down Roy was infinitely better than what they were used for in the first series. Also, you say Scar is a hypocrite, but he already knows that, so your argument is flawed. He was run completely on hatred and revenge and did not care, so you missed that point entirely. It also makes more sense that Roy did not kill the doctors. This is why the field generals sent KIMBLEE to do the dirty work since that is more his cup of tea. Also, the only reason they did that was because of more personal reasons of the doctors being annoying and not leaving when they were told to than them being traitors (which makes no sense in any type of context for doctors.) Scar killing them because he went all war crazy after finding out his whole family died and him being half dead himself and that he blamed ALL Amestrian's when he wasn't even thinking straight makes sense. A crime of passion if you will. Really, the only characters that work really well in both series are Scar, Armstrong, Izumi, and Ed. Even Alphonse was better in Brotherhood just because he could DO more and was much more proactive instead of just being a damn prisoner at the end. I could go on and on and on.


Most of this I just disagree with out right, and this is coming from seeing both series side-by-side recently just to confirm my opinions so that I could be as unbiased as possible. Most of this is a string of personal vexations on on the matter, not actual observations of the series itself.


Really, though, both are solid series. Just don't expect me to buy into the thought that Brotherhood is in ANY way inferior to the original FMA, because I sure as hell don't see it, and I went into both pretty much blind. Heck, I wasn't even excited or even cared about Brotherhood when I first heard about it, but now it is one of my all time favorite anime series just because the story and the characters were all done infinitely better. Made me obsess of the whole franchise for quite a while, and it made me read the manga, which may very well be one of the greatest Shonen Series ever written in my view. The only thing I will agree with is the rushed beginning of Brotherhood. However, that meant little in the long run just because everything else was perfect.


I'm sorry, but it really depends on what you like in a show.

If you're inclined to like shows like Fairy Tale, Naruto, Bleach or One Piece (I'm not knocking these shows at all, just drawing comparison), then you will probably love Brotherhood. For those who dislike those shows (Newsflash : a lot of people), and prefer to watch things with a lot more substance, the first series more than likely leaves a greater lasting impression.


fluffykun011 wrote:


Orga777 wrote:
The only thing I will agree with is the rushed beginning of Brotherhood. However, that meant little in the long run just because everything else was perfect.


EXACTLY.
I don't really get this guys train of thought... most of the characters that were shown in fma were filler compared to brotherhood.
I actually like both myself for obvious reasons but even edward and alphonses characters were infinitely superior in brotherhood. =/
Even if they had a smaller focus you actually felt more life and pain behind there characters.

That's what brotherhood was all about for christ sakes lol. And it actually fit the theme that full metal alchemist originally intended.
All of the characters come together to mold and shape who alphonse and edward are even
darius, jerso, heinkel, zampano have strong characters for fuck sakes.


You are part of such a small minority of people who believe Brotherhood was more emotionally involving than the first series (even among Brotherhood proponents) that I can barely see you under a microscope.
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Posted 8/14/13
Created by AnimeKami
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13


A poll is not going to mean anything in such a small pool of voters. Not to mention I wouldn't even be surprised if Brotherhood were to win such a valid poll, given its intent to have broader appeal.
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Posted 8/14/13

fluffykun011 wrote:


Orga777 wrote:
The only thing I will agree with is the rushed beginning of Brotherhood. However, that meant little in the long run just because everything else was perfect.


EXACTLY.
I don't really get this guys train of thought... most of the characters that were shown in fma were filler compared to brotherhood.
I actually like both myself for obvious reasons but even edward and alphonses characters were infinitely superior in brotherhood. =/
Even if they had a smaller focus you actually felt more life and pain behind there characters.

That's what brotherhood was all about for christ sakes lol. And it actually fit the theme that full metal alchemist originally intended.
All of the characters come together to mold and shape who alphonse and edward are even
darius, jerso, heinkel, zampano have strong characters for fuck sakes.


it was probably rushed because it was the same as the "original"
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13

zipzo wrote:
No amount of horse shitting and over analytic observation is going to make Brotherhood have an effective ending. I made it quite clear that both endings leave something to be desired in some way, so it's ridiculous and oblivious to bother comparing the two...one was an original idea, the other was a typical happy smappy everybody hug ending. One had a convoluted mechanism (2003), the other made the entire series pointless and was the epitome of Deus Ex Machina. Rarely do you often see an entire series end on a Deus Ex Machina but Brotherhood tried to do it in glorious style. Pathetic, really.

I do agree with you the over all "idea" of fma is more appealing but the series still left a lot to be desired.. in the end brotherhood won and still came out to be pretty damn good.


zipzo wrote:



A poll is not going to mean anything in such a small pool of voters. Not to mention I wouldn't even be surprised if Brotherhood were to win such a valid poll, given its intent to have broader appeal.

Yeah, if anything i find this pretty obnoxious lol..
Tbh i actually find both series to be good for what they are but the characters in brotherhood is honestly what tips the scale for me, the story potential of fma however i will agree had a lot going for it.
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13

zipzo
No amount of horse shitting and over analytic observation is going to make Brotherhood have an effective ending. I made it quite clear that both endings leave something to be desired in some way, so it's ridiculous and oblivious to bother comparing the two...one was an original idea, the other was a typical happy smappy everybody hug ending. One had a convoluted mechanism (2003), the other made the entire series pointless and was the epitome of Deus Ex Machina. Rarely do you often see an entire series end on a Deus Ex Machina but Brotherhood tried to do it in glorious style. Pathetic, really.


Ah, yes. That old argument. Yeah, no. I wouldn't even call that Deus Ex Machina. A deus ex machina is something that comes out of no where at the very last second. Sorry to disappoint, but Hohenheim started to set his plan in motion the moment he figured out what Father was doing. That was the whole reason he LEFT his family in the first place. He already had a counter measure that could reverse Father's circle with his own circle. This is not the same thing as an ass-pull at the last second. Shit, the anime did an even better job at hinting at it with his little flashback episode somewhere in the middle of the series where he is just wandering around setting it up. A real deus ex machina is how the dumb ass gate worked in the original series. XD

Also, the series was not rendered moot because of how it ended. All the characters CHANGED for the better because of what happened through this horrible journey. That is not a waste.


You know what, I will agree with you here in that Father is much more cunning and intimidating antagonist than Dante. However, to compare the two is to miss the point of the 2003 series completely, unfortunately for you. The true enemy in the 2003 series is that of equal exchange and the effect it has on our protagonists lives. That is one of the beautiful parts of the first series, in that it makes an enemy out of the concept itself. Dante is simply another piece on the board playing with those rules to her advantage. In my opinion, way more beautifully complex and imaginative than a single, evil (for who knows what reason) entity who wants to dominate the planet just because they're evil. Man, we surely don't have enough of those, do we?


It wasn't for the sake of being evil. Father just did not care about human life. It was more about trying to be his own self. Dante was just... whatever that was... And the whole point of the concept does not even really work that well as an enemy. It is actually basic fact that things can't come from nothing. Having basic logic as the "real enemy" is silly.


You're right, Kimblee doesn't get as much lime light in the 2003 series. To some this could be a bad thing, but to others (me included) this was of no harm to the series. At the end of the day Kimblee was created to be killed by Scar. Everything about what Kimblee has done and his personality was meant to have him tagged for dead by the hands of our Isballan anti-hero. His "extended" role in brotherhood could simply be considered extraneous, and not even close to necessary.


Not necessary? He was the final push and challenge that the Elric Brothers needed to go through with their quest for the sheer fact that he is their FOIL in the series. He is the same as them, he just goes on the opposite end of the same coin in views. This is why Kimblee and Ed's conversation while at Briggs was infinitely more interesting than most conversations on philosophy in the first series. He served an actual purpose than "some guy that some guy needs to kill because he killed some guy's family." That is not a real character and is REALLY not even close to necessary since he didn't DO anything. It was like a filler character trying to be a real boy. XP


Most of this I just disagree with out right, and this is coming from seeing both series side-by-side recently just to confirm my opinions so that I could be as unbiased as possible. Most of this is a string of personal vexations on on the matter, not actual observations of the series itself.


And you can go your own way, however, except for the very beginnings of Brotherhood (all of which was done much better emotionally in the original series) all the characters seem to be well and beyond what the original series had in terms of development. I just cannot agree with you at all on this point. Very little has stuck with me impact wise from the original series that was not delivered in Brotherhood better. Again, except for the first part of the series which I concede is vastly superior in terms of emotional weight. It just gets overshadowed by everything the moment Ling's group shows up for the first time and continues on down from there till the very end.


I'm sorry, but it really depends on what you like in a show.

If you're inclined to like shows like Fairy Tale, Naruto, Bleach or One Piece (I'm not knocking these shows at all, just drawing comparison), then you will probably love Brotherhood. For those who dislike those shows (Newsflash : a lot of people), and prefer to watch things with a lot more substance, the first series more than likely leaves a greater lasting impression.


Well, I don't see that much substance in the original series as you seem to do, and I definitely saw more in Brotherhood than in the original series. Also, I like all types of series. While FMA:B is one of my Top 10, I also love series like Psycho-Pass, which is also in my Top 10 just because of how thought provoking it is. Personally, I love series with more weight to them than the standard Shonen, and Brotherhood delivered to me so much that I actually gave a real damn about what happened. The only lasting impression the first series left with me, that wasn't somehow regained in Brotherhood, was disappointment with a shoddy ending, and a god awful movie. :/


You are part of such a small minority of people who believe Brotherhood was more emotionally involving than the first series (even among Brotherhood proponents) that I can barely see you under a microscope.


Cute.... Not really.
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Posted 8/14/13
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Opinions = Buttholes etc, etc.
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Posted 8/14/13
It is all part of the plan.
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Posted 8/14/13

zipzo wrote:

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Opinions = Buttholes etc, etc.


Very true, very true. I still like the original series myself. It was one of the first few anime's that actually made me invested in the art form as a whole. A lot better than what DBZ did, anyway. XD
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Posted 8/14/13 , edited 8/14/13
I think the 2009 remake was Bones being a lot more conservative in their approach. In the first series I got the impression that Ed absolutely hates to fight and only uses it as a means to an end. When he ends up killing someone he slips into an understandable depression. He's a kid with a lot on his plate. In the remake he feels more like a typical shounen protagonist with only his goals in mind.

As for the fights... The majority in the remake were forgettable in my opinion, whereas with the first series, fresh off their Cowboy Beboping Bones really takes care to make them engaging.

That said I'll eventually watch them both again.
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Posted 8/14/13

zipzo wrote:
I'm sorry, but it really depends on what you like in a show.
If you're inclined to like shows like Fairy Tale, Naruto, Bleach or One Piece (I'm not knocking these shows at all, just drawing comparison), then you will probably love Brotherhood. For those who dislike those shows (Newsflash : a lot of people), and prefer to watch things with a lot more substance, the first series more than likely leaves a greater lasting impression.

To me it really just sounds like you're hating on the series because you didn't get to see your vision of equivalent exchange.
Again i think we all agree the original has good points about it but downright neglecting the fact that there is a good amount of characters that are superior or atleast equally as good is downright obnoxious.
I watch all of those btw but what you're saying again is bull shit..
Some of my favorites for example are shinsekai yori and ef a tale of memories.
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Posted 8/14/13
somehow this discussion drifted from animation to which is better overall, not that that's anything new round here

anyways i like both animation styles, but since opinions often get bashed in CR here is an object of comparison:

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Posted 8/14/13

RolexKid wrote:

somehow this discussion drifted from animation to which is better overall, not that that's anything new round here

anyways i like both animation styles, but since opinions often get bashed in CR here is an object of comparison:



I personally like the less saturation of FMA:Brotherhood.
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