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If if is racist to require an ID when voting, what is it called when they require ID to buy beer, open a checking accoun
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24 / F / Johnstown, PA, USA
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Posted 8/26/13
Assuming that no form of fraudulence is involved, I see no reason as to why showing an ID should be a big deal. I don't view it as racist/tribalist, either.
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44 / M / WA
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Posted 8/26/13

orphenocou wrote:

People forget their id quite often when going to by liquor, driving, going to work etc.

The thing is you don't typically get pulled over, you can always go home and come back to the bar, and its not your last and most jobs that require badges normally have a backup process. When it comes to voting we want everyone to vote. Minorities in low income neighborhoods are often too busy enough with multiple jobs trying to make ends meat to know what's going on to begin with. Not riding comfortably in your car listening to the radio, watching tv or the like but instead catching public transportation, getting information or misinformation via word of mouth and having enough trouble getting time off to vote, if they even know when voting is.
They are also more susceptible to misinformation intentionally spread as it was in Florida in 2000, when thousands were turned away at the polls for bogus reasons, and its the same reason GOP groups spread posters fibbing that voter IDs were required in these low income neighborhoods. Elderly people also have a hard time getting voter IDs if they even remember to bring them.

It would be one thing if the IDs were actually addressing a present problem as opposed to being enforced due to propaganda and creating more problems. I can't vote for someone else unless that person exists, and the number of times thats even happened is almost negligible. People aren't returning to the polls multiple times to vote. Many more people aren't able to vote for various reasons, including criminal records which is actually a violation of international human rights law treaties the US has ratified and most of the civilized world follows. This is just another way of setting up additional barriers to keep people from participating in the most important of civic duties, as literacy tests were under jim crow. And it was that they were subjectively issued, just as I could say everyone white that comes in has a legitimate ID but accuse the blacks that attempt to vote of holding fraudulent IDs for another matter if you elect a bad gate keeper.


People who forget their ID are going to miss their flight too. Voting is a responsibility as well, planning ahead is the duty of every citizen. Getting an ID a barrier? Yea right. If so, I support government funding to enable these people to surmount these "barriers". The "problem" is people voting who are not eligible to vote. There are a lot of people who are not minorities and are busy with multiple jobs and hectic lives; if someone can't find the time to become familiar with the issues, they shouldn't be voting. Most Americans watch like 32 hours of TV a week (most of them are poor - rich people watch far less TV) so for most people, there IS time.

I don't know if that is true about GOP spreading misinformation (rather suspect that story); what about the new black panthers standing in front of a polling place intimidating voters?

I am fairly certain baring criminals from voting is not a violation of international human rights law, but what applies in the United States is State and constitutional law not a bunch of bureaucrats we don't vote for (many who could care less about human rights in their own countries). There is a process where criminals can have their right to vote restored (which was lost by their violating the rights of their fellow citizen).

No one is going to get away with claiming the ID of every minority is a fraud. Seriously???
Quarlo 
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M / San Antonio
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Posted 8/26/13 , edited 8/26/13
One must also take into account what it takes to aquire a state ID.

I used to live in California. But recently I moved back to Texas. I moved in with some old friends that I used to live with while in California.

I was born in San Antonio. Lived in Texas most of my life. My first drivers licence was issued in Texas. So naturally I wanted to get myself a Texas drivers licence since I was now living here.

Unfortunately, I cannot get a Texas ID. Despite having a Texas Birth Certificate I cannot get a Texas ID because they also require that I produce two utility bills that come to my address in my name (cell phone bills do not qualify). Since I am living with friends I don't have any bills in my name and have to continue to use my California ID. But, I want to vote in Texas, but cannot until I get Texas ID.

So the race is on as to which will come first. I get enough money to move out and get utilities in my name or my CA ID expires and I'm forced to take the bus to avoid driving illegally.

My case is not typical of what others have to go thru to get valid state ID.
22021 cr points
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Posted 8/26/13
That is because you aren't technically a resident of Texas. Heck, you could "move in with friends in New York" and have the same problem.
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M / San Antonio
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Posted 8/26/13
I don't think the idea is racist, however, I would prefer this country not invest hundreds of millions of dollars to "fix" a problem that will not make any significant amount of difference in voter results. At least not right now...

If I remember correct there was a bit of drama regarding alleged voter fraud back in 2000 but as far as I know there was not a huge push to implement voter ID laws then. I would have actually been OK with putting this in then if some politicians felt it would make a difference (which I don't think it would have) but our economy was still pretty stable back then.
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26 / M / Socal
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Posted 8/27/13 , edited 8/27/13

RogueIV wrote:

One would have to assume that this is really a democracy to begin with. hint: It isn't. As far as voter fraud goes, it's not as widespread and Voter ID pundits would have you believe.

Also I'd like to note that I've gone to conventions and primaries without being carded.

The real voter fraud is the Electoral College, The Voting by District, the 2 party system and any other thing that prevents the actual counting of the popular vote in this country.

The Democracy is a Lie (Just like the cake)




I used to vote, then I figure out that it's all bull, now I'm an unregistered voter, I don't waste my time with any politics.
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Posted 8/27/13
I'm sorry, but I find the claim that minorities are too busy making a living to renew or get an ID over-the-top. I'm a minority (and a busy one at that), but if can I find time to do things I enjoy, I can find time to take care of things that are my responsibility. That includes making sure that my Driver's License is up to date. A Driver's License in California is good for 5 years. A US passport can be good for up to 10 (as far as I know). Nobody is THAT busy, where they can't renew an ID within a 5 year period (or 10). Don't people need IDs to be legally employed, anyway?

I have to card people in my line of work, and I can say that White people are just as likely to not have an ID on them as are minorities (the usual reason for all is that they left it at home or in their car). Of all the minorities that I've seen that do not carry an ID, not one has stated that they do not have one because they're too busy working. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is definitely not a widespread problem as some people would suggest. Furthermore, to say that only minorities would have this problem suggests that White people don't work as hard as minorities. Quite frankly, THAT sounds racist.

It would be racist if it was only required of anyone that appears to be a minority.
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25 / M
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Posted 8/27/13 , edited 8/27/13
ID's are only like $25. That's 4 hours on minimum wage. If 4 hours of your time (okay, I guess it's more like 5 since you have to actually go pick the thing up) is more than voting is worth, I'm not sure you should be voting. I'll agree that it probably bars more legitimate voters than it prevents fraudulent ones, but all things considered, I don't think it really has any significant effect on either. People that regularly vote will probably have ID already, and frauds can probably get some pretty good fakes. It's ridiculous, but inconsequential. Frankly, I think even something as inane as DRM on computer games has more of an effect on society, and that hardly matters at all.

Is it racist? I could see the argument that it's classist, but it affects poor white people as much as it does poor minorities. I suppose you could have the case of the racist poll worker that might claim that the ID is fake and require verification of it, but those people (unfortunately) will be there regardless of this law. They may now be able to use this law as some backwards reason to prevent people from voting, but if the law wasn't around, they'd just figure something else out. If anything, having ID gives you legal high-ground regardless of this law, and people should have some sort of proof of who they are anyway, so practically speaking, it's like a law requring you to have something you should have anyway. Again, I'd rather not have the law than have it, but it is far from being a big deal, it's almost a small deal, and it's just a bit over being a deal at all. I'd rather talk about war, economics, guns, and corruption if we're going to talk politics. Racism is still a problem, but it's no longer the biggest problem. Further, the problem is cultural -- people need to fix the problem rather than governments. You can't make laws against hating people (yet).
Posted 8/27/13
The original post is unclear, and therefore a gray area for interpretation.

If you're asking about being unfair to a certain group of people, then that's prejudice against the less-fortunate.


Racism would be to determine that a law like this is specifically targeted against an ethnic group (i.e. the opium exclusion act of 1909 targeted against Chinese immigrants)


http://seekingliberty.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/racism-vs-prejudice-there-is-a-difference/

Clarify this post, or this has the potential to be closed for spam or other reasons.
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37 / M
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Posted 8/27/13
Racist? Not necesarily. Does it infringe upon people who do not have IDs? Yes, but only if they have to pay for an ID.

Ok, who doesn't have an ID? Elderly folks who don't drive and have surrendered their IDs.

Why don't they get state issued ID cards? I don't know.

Is voter fraud a huge problem? It's widespread, but honestly, as messed up as our records are, requiring an ID ain't gonna do s#!t

Check out how sad our record keeping is:
http://www.truethevote.org/news/how-widespread-is-voter-fraud-2012-facts-figures


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31 / M
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Posted 8/27/13 , edited 8/27/13

dougeprofile wrote:


orphenocou wrote:

People forget their id quite often when going to by liquor, driving, going to work etc.

The thing is you don't typically get pulled over, you can always go home and come back to the bar, and its not your last and most jobs that require badges normally have a backup process. When it comes to voting we want everyone to vote. Minorities in low income neighborhoods are often too busy enough with multiple jobs trying to make ends meat to know what's going on to begin with. Not riding comfortably in your car listening to the radio, watching tv or the like but instead catching public transportation, getting information or misinformation via word of mouth and having enough trouble getting time off to vote, if they even know when voting is.
They are also more susceptible to misinformation intentionally spread as it was in Florida in 2000, when thousands were turned away at the polls for bogus reasons, and its the same reason GOP groups spread posters fibbing that voter IDs were required in these low income neighborhoods. Elderly people also have a hard time getting voter IDs if they even remember to bring them.

It would be one thing if the IDs were actually addressing a present problem as opposed to being enforced due to propaganda and creating more problems. I can't vote for someone else unless that person exists, and the number of times thats even happened is almost negligible. People aren't returning to the polls multiple times to vote. Many more people aren't able to vote for various reasons, including criminal records which is actually a violation of international human rights law treaties the US has ratified and most of the civilized world follows. This is just another way of setting up additional barriers to keep people from participating in the most important of civic duties, as literacy tests were under jim crow. And it was that they were subjectively issued, just as I could say everyone white that comes in has a legitimate ID but accuse the blacks that attempt to vote of holding fraudulent IDs for another matter if you elect a bad gate keeper.


People who forget their ID are going to miss their flight too. Voting is a responsibility as well, planning ahead is the duty of every citizen. Getting an ID a barrier? Yea right. If so, I support government funding to enable these people to surmount these "barriers". The "problem" is people voting who are not eligible to vote. There are a lot of people who are not minorities and are busy with multiple jobs and hectic lives; if someone can't find the time to become familiar with the issues, they shouldn't be voting. Most Americans watch like 32 hours of TV a week (most of them are poor - rich people watch far less TV) so for most people, there IS time.

I don't know if that is true about GOP spreading misinformation (rather suspect that story); what about the new black panthers standing in front of a polling place intimidating voters?

I am fairly certain baring criminals from voting is not a violation of international human rights law, but what applies in the United States is State and constitutional law not a bunch of bureaucrats we don't vote for (many who could care less about human rights in their own countries). There is a process where criminals can have their right to vote restored (which was lost by their violating the rights of their fellow citizen).

No one is going to get away with claiming the ID of every minority is a fraud. Seriously???


Fine miss your flight if you don't have an ID or passport. We want every one to vote and in most states you have one day and a few hour window at most to do so. Its enough trouble making sure everyone knows when the elections are. You schedule a flight on your own time. Elections are always during the week on workdays and in many cases peoples employers have tried to restrict them from going to vote.

The GOP spreading misinformation has been covered in video footage shown on cnn with posters strewn up in Pennsylvania hoods and people spreading lies that voter ID was required during voter registration in florida etc. . The black panther incident you speak of was a single man standing at one location and was a response to 2000 where blacks were turned away (his purpose seems to have been to prevent that from happening again as opposed to turning whites away). Minorities were turned away at several locations in the swing state of florida in 2000, run by Bush's own brother: http://beck.library.emory.edu/southernchanges/article.php?id=sc22-4_017

As far as convicts voting, its only a violation to prevent it in Europe: http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/feb/04/prisoner-voting-convicts-human-beings . I'm talking about FORMER prisoners in a country that practices extremely discriminatory enforcement as spoken on by republicans' own Ron Paul: http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Drugs.htm , if you want to waste my time pulling up the statute in a covenant we ratified that covers it ask me and Ill get to it when I get backfrom my duties in 12+ hrs.

And if people assigned to regulate polling places can get away with turning swaths of minorities away in 2000 you can be damn sure that people who check IDs can get away with questioning minority youth and the like selectively today especially in swing states like North Carolina and South Carolina, we're not talking New York here. For that matter there are few people willing to risk their freedom to vote under someone elses name, which is why it isn't a problem.

You're creating a solution for something that isn't a common issue to begin with,which is why republicans are so in favor of it, hoping to cut the number of voters http://www.phillytrib.com/commentaryarticles/item/4815-lies-fall-away-from-pa-%E2%80%99s-voter-id-law.html knowing the majority in this country (and this world for that matter) are liberal, and rightfully so considering our conservatives have moved to the far right of 99% of the conservative parties on the planet.

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31 / M
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Posted 8/27/13 , edited 8/27/13

greenluvs1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but I find the claim that minorities are too busy making a living to renew or get an ID over-the-top. I'm a minority (and a busy one at that), but if can I find time to do things I enjoy, I can find time to take care of things that are my responsibility. That includes making sure that my Driver's License is up to date. A Driver's License in California is good for 5 years. A US passport can be good for up to 10 (as far as I know). Nobody is THAT busy, where they can't renew an ID within a 5 year period (or 10). Don't people need IDs to be legally employed, anyway?

I have to card people in my line of work, and I can say that White people are just as likely to not have an ID on them as are minorities (the usual reason for all is that they left it at home or in their car). Of all the minorities that I've seen that do not carry an ID, not one has stated that they do not have one because they're too busy working. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is definitely not a widespread problem as some people would suggest. Furthermore, to say that only minorities would have this problem suggests that White people don't work as hard as minorities. Quite frankly, THAT sounds racist.

It would be racist if it was only required of anyone that appears to be a minority.


Let's say you're a single mother of 2 who catches a 2 hour bus to commute to a job she has no leave from and works from sunup to sundown trying to make ends meat to feed and clothe her children. I'm as busy as anyone. I have a business work, school etc. but I also drive and can regulate my time well not having children. Plus I have internet tv am up on current event, know when its time to vote etc. Its hard enough informing many in such neighborhoods that elections are coming and they need to vote. You may say then they just shouldn't vote or don't deserve to vote, but it comes off as self serving when you state that with near certainty that they won't vote for your favorite party.

If people voting falsely has been a problem in this country then show the stats to back it. People don't do it except once in a blue moon because the consequences aren't worth it and in states like florida where it took 12 hours to vote last time its impractical. There's a reason the GOP is so heavily in favor of these laws, and its not because they're suddenly needed after 200 years to legitimize elections. Its because they realize they can't win elections without gerrymandering, disenfranchising voters,and confusing people at the 12th hour now that demographics aren't in their favor.

And its not saying white people don't work as hard. Its saying low income SINGLE PARENTS in particular have to work twice as hard as most to get by. are less likely to have cars and other amenities to ease travel, more likely to have to work further in order to get decent wages, and more likely to have multiple jobs, jobs with less benefits like leave with or without pay, A higher percentage of minorities find themselves in this situation. My thought is that it isnt racist to assert this but rather due to racist policies in the criminal justice system that there is such a disparity, look at the ron paul link I posted in my above response. As far as whites being affected as well, probably in some cases,but studies have shown a higher number of minorities without state IDs especially in swing states, and even then people more likely to be in the role of gatekeeper are ones with the party supporting these measures to begin with and can do so in a discriminatory fashion. It doesnt matter much in louisiana and mississippi which are red all the way, but in places like the Carolinas and Florida it can change elections.

The reason why you need an ID to buy liquor is to prove you're of age. You need an ID to open a checking account or fly somewhere because fraud has been high when it comes to monetary transactions and you don't want to let criminals escape by saying they're someone else or terrorists fly being screened as someone else. But what problem are voter ID laws addressing?: If you vote falsely you're going to jail, its difficult to vote falsely to begin with (and sometimes to vote at all). When I vote I have to know my name, my address, my polling place, and they cross me off the list once I've voted. There have been very few cases of people riding around impersonating others to vote and when it happened the result was negligible and almost always those people were imprisoned.

Whats more likely is that you add a new barrier to voting, people who were already discouraged from voting are now even moreso, sure not all of them will be blue but lets say a difference of 5% minority to non minority, another 5% are unable to get ID, 1% are tricked or held up by someone who falsely claims their ID is a fake/not up to date/means they need to go to another polling place, and the final 2-3% forget their ID (after all many of them will have just got it for voting and aren't used to carrying it), and suddenly you go from President Hillary Clinton to President Sarah Palin and the US is the laughing stock of the international community again, while regressive values triumph and progressives take a backseat, as the steering wheel is in the unsteady hand of the right once again. This is why the GOP favors these measures. Not because there is a need for them, but because they can convince people like you its fair knowing how much it can shake things up while creating an additional barrier for people who can legally vote, one that not most, but a high enough percentage will fail to clear for Republicans which are in the minority to win big again.
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26 / M / The OC
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Posted 8/27/13
FUCK THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, if 90% of the country wants the right guy, but their district votes for the other party, than is it fair?

I vote for a democratic communism reformation
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24 / F
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Posted 8/27/13
the only way i can get id is:

1. learner licence
2. pass port

(both are not cheep)

a security guy asked me for id on my college id. (why give me a college id if i still need to prove its me.)

my voter card comes though the mail.
Posted 8/27/13
If you said tomato, someone somewhere in the world would think you are being racist...
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