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Is Gender Independent of Biology?
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Posted 9/6/13 , edited 9/6/13

swirly_commode wrote:


MopZ wrote:


This happens when you are still in mommies tummy. The process to make a baby isn't perfect, so no human body is born perfect, which is why most people are not 100% asymmetrical. And, the system can err quite drastically, so it's not surprising when someone is born transgender.

Also, please get it through your head that expression is not the same as gender identity. There are plenty of people who cross-dress that identify as their born gender.


you still didnt address the issue of social conditioning that youve been talking so much about


That's pretty easy to answer, and all you have to do is walk into a toy Isle.. The girl's toy isle has for a long time been filled with house care toys, baby dolls, princesses, cute pets and animal care, and toys that promote a strong fixation on looks (clothing coordination, unrealistic body-type goals). In contrast the boy's toy isle is loaded with warriors, builders, enforcers, adventurers, toughness, the grotesque, men of action and science, and eye-candy girls (there were plenty when I was a kid). Now, since play is often used in nature for the development of certain skills: what does this tell you about what is expected of each gender, and the ideas we put in their heads? It's why men must smash bugs and fix the pipes, while the girls nurture and clean while keeping up their appearances at all times. And, it's part of why people think girls know nothing in STEM fields, and why men must never cry.

Also, ask yourself these:
-Why do we have to have a suburban home, a dog, and two kids?
-Why do we have to get married?
-Why is not conforming to gender and hetero normativity considered taboo?
-Why was it such a big deal to change the easy-bake oven's color from pink to a color you'd normally find on a modern oven?

The answer is simply conditioning, and when you go against that people look at you weirdly.
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Posted 9/15/13
seriously:

sex = one's biology
gender = a social construct based in terms of masculinity/femininity

SEX and GENDER are NOT interchangeable.

and "transgenderED" is not a word.
it's "transgender".

making it past tense implies that it's a verb, which it's not. it's an identity.

my name is dylan, & i am a female-to-male (FTM) transgender individual, & i studied gender in college.
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Posted 9/15/13

dylansayshello wrote:

seriously:

sex = one's biology
gender = a social construct based in terms of masculinity/femininity

SEX and GENDER are NOT interchangeable.

and "transgenderED" is not a word.
it's "transgender".

making it past tense implies that it's a verb, which it's not. it's an identity.

my name is dylan, & i am a female-to-male (FTM) transgender individual, & i studied gender in college.


Thank you.
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Posted 10/1/13 , edited 10/1/13
Female




Male




gender is biological and genetic

men and women have different digit ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

and look up sexual dimorphism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans
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Posted 10/1/13
Gender roles are not independent of biology, because if you think about it, gender roles have been morphing and evolving since the stone ages. The modern stereotypical male gender role which dictates that a man should be emotionally distant, strong, and should never cry dates back to when cavemen discovered that they had bigger muscles than cavewomen along with a higher tolerance to pain and naturally higher aggression.

The same goes for women. The common stereotype for the modern woman as a nurturing, sweet, kind, person dates back to the most basic aspect about a primitive woman. They weren't as strong as men, therefore not as good hunters but they were biologically inclined to be gatherers and they could of course bear children which they have an instinctive obligation to nurture.

While I wouldn't say that gender roles are 100% dependent on biology, they're quite dependent on it.
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Posted 10/5/13 , edited 10/5/13
I'm too tired to argue anything right now, so I'll just post these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE&list=SP848F2368C90DDC3D (and it starts somewhere in one of the lectures on this subject)
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Posted 10/7/13

dylansayshello wrote:

seriously:

sex = one's biology
gender = a social construct based in terms of masculinity/femininity

SEX and GENDER are NOT interchangeable.

and "transgenderED" is not a word.
it's "transgender".

making it past tense implies that it's a verb, which it's not. it's an identity.

my name is dylan, & i am a female-to-male (FTM) transgender individual, & i studied gender in college.


so you are still a female.
no matter how you modify your body, you will always be a female.
if you stop with the hormone treatments, your natural hormones will take over and you will start to appear more female.

body modification does not make you a different sex or gender.
it may modify the stereotypes you live under and expect from others around you, but it does not change who you are.
you are now and have always been a female. you will always be a female.

just because you want to live in a masculine stereotype does not make you any less female.
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Posted 10/7/13

swirly_commode wrote:


dylansayshello wrote:

seriously:

sex = one's biology
gender = a social construct based in terms of masculinity/femininity

SEX and GENDER are NOT interchangeable.

and "transgenderED" is not a word.
it's "transgender".

making it past tense implies that it's a verb, which it's not. it's an identity.

my name is dylan, & i am a female-to-male (FTM) transgender individual, & i studied gender in college.


so you are still a female.
no matter how you modify your body, you will always be a female.
if you stop with the hormone treatments, your natural hormones will take over and you will start to appear more female.

body modification does not make you a different sex or gender.
it may modify the stereotypes you live under and expect from others around you, but it does not change who you are.
you are now and have always been a female. you will always be a female.

just because you want to live in a masculine stereotype does not make you any less female.


it is a fact that i am female. that is my sex/biology. i never have & never will deny that fact.

but i do not present as a woman. i acknowledge my biology, & femininity, but i do not identify as a "woman".

this is transgender stand-up comic Ian Harvie. he was born female. now, if you saw him going into the women's restroom, how would you feel? would you say that, because he has female sex organs, he should use the women's restroom? or that he should use the men's restroom--because he's got facial hair & no breasts? what if he was wearing a dress? would you say he shouldn't because he's got a beard & a low voice? or is it okay because he's got a vag? if you saw him, would you say "hey ma'am?" he's got lady parts (with the exception of top surgery & hormones.) sex & gender are different. gender is about presentation.


because of close-minded people out there, transitioned guys--guys who look like Ian Harvie--are denied medical care for things like ovarian cancer because they've transitioned, & there are doctors who feel uncomfortable about it. there's a documentary about it, it's called "Southern Comfort". the gender binary in this society has little room for those who do not fit (& we do, in fact, exist). it's ignorance & intolerance.
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Posted 10/7/13
is what you did somehow different from what this guy has done?

does the fact that you modified your genitalia make you somehow more deserving of normal treatment than this guy?

would you feel uncomfortable if you walked into an elevator with guy?
would you call him mr or sir?


the only thing you are doing is changing the way you are percieved. just like this guy did.
you arent changing anything other than the stereotype you wish people to label you with.
this guy is no different than you

how does that make you feel?
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Posted 10/8/13 , edited 10/8/13


I'm quoting this because he's directing it at you.


swirly_commode wrote:

is what you did somehow different from what this guy has done?

does the fact that you modified your genitalia make you somehow more deserving of normal treatment than this guy?

would you feel uncomfortable if you walked into an elevator with guy?
would you call him mr or sir?


the only thing you are doing is changing the way you are percieved. just like this guy did.
you arent changing anything other than the stereotype you wish people to label you with.
this guy is no different than you

how does that make you feel?


Um, one: not all transsexuals get bottom surgery, and two: nobody deserves to be treated or made to feel like one. There is nothing wrong with asking to be treated with respect and dignity, or to have your issues addressed. Seriously, this feels like I'm observing a bullied kid being accused of making themself off as a special-snowflake when they ask them to stop and tells a teacher about it. No one is asking to be treated better than anyone. We are asking to be treated like people, with needs, just like yourself. The fact that our issues are ignored or glossed over as "just aesthetics" is proof enough that there is a problem with people taking our issues seriously, imo.
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Posted 10/8/13
You do have the special snowflake syndrome. How do you know what issues that, what did you call him, freak is going through to want to make himself look like that?
What makes your personality issues any more important or real than anyone elses? How do you think that "freak" feels when people like you are looking down on him because of the choices hes made with his body?

Personally id share the elevator or bathroom with anyone. Id have no problem dropping a deuce in the stall next to anyone of any gender or assumed role. I really dont care what role you want to play or how you want to modify your body. I just think that if you are going to demand equality you should practice it no matter what.
Posted 10/8/13
I'm too ignorant to express an opinion on this matter. But I would say biological, excluding physical attributes.
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Posted 10/8/13 , edited 10/8/13

swirly_commode wrote:

You do have the special snowflake syndrome. How do you know what issues that, what did you call him, freak is going through to want to make himself look like that?
What makes your personality issues any more important or real than anyone elses? How do you think that "freak" feels when people like you are looking down on him because of the choices hes made with his body?

Personally id share the elevator or bathroom with anyone. Id have no problem dropping a deuce in the stall next to anyone of any gender or assumed role. I really dont care what role you want to play or how you want to modify your body. I just think that if you are going to demand equality you should practice it no matter what.


Wow, you should reread my post, seriously. I just wrote that people shouldn't be treated like freaks or made to feel like one. I'm not even sure what you read to get that out of my last comment, so please take a chill pill or something.
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Posted 10/8/13

MopZ wrote:


swirly_commode wrote:

You do have the special snowflake syndrome. How do you know what issues that, what did you call him, freak is going through to want to make himself look like that?
What makes your personality issues any more important or real than anyone elses? How do you think that "freak" feels when people like you are looking down on him because of the choices hes made with his body?

Personally id share the elevator or bathroom with anyone. Id have no problem dropping a deuce in the stall next to anyone of any gender or assumed role. I really dont care what role you want to play or how you want to modify your body. I just think that if you are going to demand equality you should practice it no matter what.


Wow, you should reread my post, seriously. I just wrote that people shouldn't be treated like freaks or made to feel like one. I'm not even sure what you read to get that out of my last comment, so please take a chill pill or something.


i didnt read most of your post, ill admit it.
but you did quote the previous transgender as aiming at me calling me a bigot. ill tell you now that your aim is off. i dont care what you look like or want to act like but all your are doing with transgender modifications is all aesthetic. you dont need more or less male/female genitalia to push the stereotype you are trying for, all you need are actions.
the way i see it is that all you are doing is trying to live up to perceived stereotypes by modifying your body to fit what you perceive as the root cause of said stereotypes. basically, i think, you dont need cockandballs to be perceived as a man. the need for cockandballs is your take on that stereotype, and i may be wrong but all ive gotten so far is flame wars from people like you that would rather be coddled in their chosen stereotype, than any real input.
as soon as i start trying to have a real discussion with anyone, such as yourself, i get flamed for not being sensitive enough and coddling you.
the fact is that you are trying to play into a perceived stereotype, that you have claimed to exist, by modifying your body to fit the stereotype. i am a layman and can not understand what it is you feel that makes you think you need to change your gender anymore than i can understand what would make someone want to implant horns and deformities into their flesh. from my perspective it looks like all you are doing is trying to modify yourself to fit a stereotype that you want to adhere to.
looks do not define a person. i think i should bold that LOOKS DO NOT DEFINE A PERSON.
if you want to be more manly or more womanly, then do it. i dont think you need to undergo body modification to suit your desired end results.

im not trying to bully or flame anyone.
i am also not trying to sugar coat my words. i dont think that sugar coating makes anyone feel more accepted or less hurt. the root ideas are still there regardless of faux honesty and sugar coatings. the truth isnt always pretty and you cant dance around it if you hope to come to a real conclusion to a discusion. so please forgive my harshness and lets move on if possible.
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Posted 10/9/13

It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.
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