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Is Gender Independent of Biology?
Posted 10/9/13
It's not independent. Biology is at its core all other explanations or derivatives are the branches imo.
Posted 10/11/13

MopZ wrote:


It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.


Can we seriously just stop responding to this piece of shit on any intellectual discussions? He's obviously aiming to hurt and ridicule transgender people. He's sticking to his dictionary and 100 year old book on gender studies. Likely, he believes women should stay at home and the earth is flat because that was socially / scientifically accurate at some point right?
It's not like we should ever question commonly accepted ideas even when actual people are being killed and harmed for my mindset. Anyways, I'm going to go sacrifice a vaccinated child to the Scientology gods because there's science in their name and they have a book of written "facts." Can't go against that!
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Posted 10/12/13
I have no idea why some people are so adamant about sex having to match gender. Get over yourselves.
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Posted 10/14/13

MopZ wrote:


It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.


in the end its all just aesthetics.
you are the only one who feels you need certain genitalia to feel accepted or complete. nobody else really cares what genitalia you have so long as you can function in society and carry your own weight. genitalia doesnt effect your ability to do that or be a responsible adult it only effects your aesthetics and personal view of yourself. its exactly the same as someone who thinks they are a vampire and has tog et their teeth surgically sharpened to fit the stereotype theyve chosen to play in their social circles.

i think what you dont understand is that nobody cares but you. you can never change your gender. you will always be the same as what you were born as, despite a regimen of prescription hormones. the only thing you are doing is changing your aesthetics to suit something you desire to look like.

in the end, the only person who feels out of place is you. nobody else cares what you look like or what genitalia you have or had.
and decades of research doesnt mean a thing if you set out to prove a goal, like creationism. research, especially in the western worlds, has become very politically motivated if no other reason than only so they can continue to be funded. any research you can find that says one thing, i can find a dozen that say the complete opposite. research is useless now adays, untill they have proven laws.
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Posted 10/14/13

HellaStrider wrote:


MopZ wrote:


It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.


Can we seriously just stop responding to this piece of shit on any intellectual discussions? He's obviously aiming to hurt and ridicule transgender people. He's sticking to his dictionary and 100 year old book on gender studies. Likely, he believes women should stay at home and the earth is flat because that was socially / scientifically accurate at some point right?
It's not like we should ever question commonly accepted ideas even when actual people are being killed and harmed for my mindset. Anyways, I'm going to go sacrifice a vaccinated child to the Scientology gods because there's science in their name and they have a book of written "facts." Can't go against that!


actually, its the very equality laws that render transgenderism moot.
you dont need a penis to function as a man in society, women can vote now adays too. everyone is equal in society, or should be. they dont need the aesthetics to fit a certain role.
also, i prefer to cook for myself and any lady guests i might have. id prefer them to stay out of my kitchen.

and the commonly accepted ideas you are talking about are what the transgender idea is. by changing themselves to fit the aesthetic norm of the role they have chosen, they are playing into gender roles set 100 years ago by people who thought the earth was flat.
you dont need a penis to play with GI Joe and drive race cars. body modification is only for the aesthetic ideas of the one doing the changing.

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Posted 10/14/13
I think you all are confusing Genetic components of sex and Gender with Gender identity.... two vastly separate things.

Doctors tend to test an infant in the case of a child being born with ambiguous genitalia. After extensive testing the doctor usually consults the parents concerning the child's gender. Based on this information parents can decide to pursue corrective surgery or wait until the child is old enough to decide for his/her self. Or in the case of an Evangelical Christian household; throw the infant in a dumpster and pray for gods forgiveness because it's obviously the work of Satan...
Posted 10/14/13

swirly_commode wrote:


HellaStrider wrote:


MopZ wrote:


It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.


Can we seriously just stop responding to this piece of shit on any intellectual discussions? He's obviously aiming to hurt and ridicule transgender people. He's sticking to his dictionary and 100 year old book on gender studies. Likely, he believes women should stay at home and the earth is flat because that was socially / scientifically accurate at some point right?
It's not like we should ever question commonly accepted ideas even when actual people are being killed and harmed for my mindset. Anyways, I'm going to go sacrifice a vaccinated child to the Scientology gods because there's science in their name and they have a book of written "facts." Can't go against that!


actually, its the very equality laws that render transgenderism moot.
you dont need a penis to function as a man in society, women can vote now adays too. everyone is equal in society, or should be. they dont need the aesthetics to fit a certain role.
also, i prefer to cook for myself and any lady guests i might have. id prefer them to stay out of my kitchen.

and the commonly accepted ideas you are talking about are what the transgender idea is. by changing themselves to fit the aesthetic norm of the role they have chosen, they are playing into gender roles set 100 years ago by people who thought the earth was flat.
you dont need a penis to play with GI Joe and drive race cars. body modification is only for the aesthetic ideas of the one doing the changing.



Hey guess what! Transgender people don't all get surgery. I'm quite sure I've already enlightened you on that before but you seem to be unable to understand that though some transgender people suffer from body dysphoria, not all of them want surgery. I don't get why you're so adamantly against people feeling comfortable with themselves because that really is all it is. A trans man can have feminine traits despite being a man; a trans woman can have traits considered masculine by society today despite being a woman, wanting to be a woman. Gender roles do not have to play into this. I also noticed you mentioned that transgender people are changing themselves to fit "the role they have chosen." Everything is a lot simpler once you realize that they don't choose to feel like they were born in the wrong body. You can tell them all you want about the gender roles that exist in society but that won't change the fact they want to look like the other sex and to be viewed as one. No matter how much a woman born with extremely feminine features tries to dress herself up to look like a man, her chest and features will easily give her away. Absolutely none of that has anything to do with gender roles. The reason we acknowledge the state of being transgender is to provide aid to allowing them to feel peaceful with themselves.
Posted 10/14/13

swirly_commode wrote:


MopZ wrote:


It completely ignores any of the decades of the knowledge and research on transgenderism, and is the same type of misinformed things spouted at us by various transphobic groups and individuals. That's why people are taking offense to it.


in the end its all just aesthetics.
you are the only one who feels you need certain genitalia to feel accepted or complete. nobody else really cares what genitalia you have so long as you can function in society and carry your own weight. genitalia doesnt effect your ability to do that or be a responsible adult it only effects your aesthetics and personal view of yourself. its exactly the same as someone who thinks they are a vampire and has tog et their teeth surgically sharpened to fit the stereotype theyve chosen to play in their social circles.

i think what you dont understand is that nobody cares but you. you can never change your gender. you will always be the same as what you were born as, despite a regimen of prescription hormones. the only thing you are doing is changing your aesthetics to suit something you desire to look like.

in the end, the only person who feels out of place is you. nobody else cares what you look like or what genitalia you have or had.
and decades of research doesnt mean a thing if you set out to prove a goal, like creationism. research, especially in the western worlds, has become very politically motivated if no other reason than only so they can continue to be funded. any research you can find that says one thing, i can find a dozen that say the complete opposite. research is useless now adays, untill they have proven laws.


The funny ass thing about your whole speech is that you claim that a transgender person transitions in order to feel out of place. You don't realize that transitioning allows them to feel like they fit in. And you also seem to not understand that the majority of people hold their sexual orientation based on the gentalia they find attractive so in reality, other people care a fucking lot about what gentalia you have. No transgender is going to cry that other people don't care about their gentalia; it's for their own selves. You seem to not understand the majority of people though because they are the ones who first labeled people as transgender and who do end up caring whether a person has male or female gentalia and their past history. We fucking wish you guys stopped caring.
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Posted 10/14/13

HellaStrider
The funny ass thing about your whole speech is that you claim that a transgender person transitions in order to feel out of place. You don't realize that transitioning allows them to feel like they fit in. And you also seem to not understand that the majority of people hold their sexual orientation based on the gentalia they find attractive so in reality, other people care a fucking lot about what gentalia you have. No transgender is going to cry that other people don't care about their gentalia; it's for their own selves. You seem to not understand the majority of people though because they are the ones who first labeled people as transgender and who do end up caring whether a person has male or female gentalia and their past history. We fucking wish you guys stopped caring.


actually, thats almost exactly what i said.
in fact i think i said something along the lines of it being aesthetics to make you feel better about your self because the rest of us dont care.
you dont need surgery to role play a man in society. we have laws that guarantee your equality, even if they are a little skewed.
the only person that cares about your gender and genitalia is you. any addiction you have to prescription hormones is to suit your aesthetic desires, not to fool others into thinking youre actually not the gender you were born as.

you got the label as transgenders because you get pissed off when we refer to you as the wrong gender.
im sorry, but as far as im concerned, when i see a man with boobs its still a man regardless if he wants to be called a woman, a leprechaun, or the tooth fairy. its irrelevant to me what role he wants to play in society.
though im pretty sure the original term was he/she or she/he and it was you all who chose to be known as transpeople

i really think you just want to be angry and pretend to be persecuted because people dont understand you.
honestly, i dont think the majority of people really care about you. i think thats what bugs you. i think you want to be someone special that draws attention to your plight and have the world treat you differently because you have some special case of something or other.
Posted 10/14/13 , edited 10/14/13

swirly_commode wrote:


HellaStrider
The funny ass thing about your whole speech is that you claim that a transgender person transitions in order to feel out of place. You don't realize that transitioning allows them to feel like they fit in. And you also seem to not understand that the majority of people hold their sexual orientation based on the gentalia they find attractive so in reality, other people care a fucking lot about what gentalia you have. No transgender is going to cry that other people don't care about their gentalia; it's for their own selves. You seem to not understand the majority of people though because they are the ones who first labeled people as transgender and who do end up caring whether a person has male or female gentalia and their past history. We fucking wish you guys stopped caring.


actually, thats almost exactly what i said.
in fact i think i said something along the lines of it being aesthetics to make you feel better about your self because the rest of us dont care.
you dont need surgery to role play a man in society. we have laws that guarantee your equality, even if they are a little skewed.
the only person that cares about your gender and genitalia is you. any addiction you have to prescription hormones is to suit your aesthetic desires, not to fool others into thinking youre actually not the gender you were born as.

you got the label as transgenders because you get pissed off when we refer to you as the wrong gender.
im sorry, but as far as im concerned, when i see a man with boobs its still a man regardless if he wants to be called a woman, a leprechaun, or the tooth fairy. its irrelevant to me what role he wants to play in society.
though im pretty sure the original term was he/she or she/he and it was you all who chose to be known as transpeople

i really think you just want to be angry and pretend to be persecuted because people dont understand you.
honestly, i dont think the majority of people really care about you. i think thats what bugs you. i think you want to be someone special that draws attention to your plight and have the world treat you differently because you have some special case of something or other.


RIGHTTT. No one cares about this topic at all, especially not you sir who has argued with me extensively on this topic as a means of showing your lack of care for this topic.

Wow, I've suddenly been persuaded by your strong opinions that the discomfort I've felt all these years was completely imagined. It appears that thinking logically, my inner assertion of my mismatched sex was simply a way to get people to yell at me because I'm actually a giant masochistic attention-seeker. I would come out as gay but why would anyone unless they were lying to themselves to get attention. They love the opposite sex afterall because that's simply biology and no one gives a fuck about gentalia so how can they even assert that they are gay? If we're talking romantically, if gay people could look past gender roles then they could just love people of the opposite sex who appear more masculine or more feminine. Man everything works out so easily when we're simply talking theories and discrediting the feelings of the ones involved.
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Posted 10/15/13
i never said nobody cares about this topic. i said nobody cares about you or your genitalia
and what youve been feeling all these years is called puberty. it will pass, youll get laid and move on with your life.
youre also very confused about sex, homosexuality, and attention whores.
you need some friends
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Posted 10/15/13

HellaStrider wrote:


swirly_commode wrote:


HellaStrider
The funny ass thing about your whole speech is that you claim that a transgender person transitions in order to feel out of place. You don't realize that transitioning allows them to feel like they fit in. And you also seem to not understand that the majority of people hold their sexual orientation based on the gentalia they find attractive so in reality, other people care a fucking lot about what gentalia you have. No transgender is going to cry that other people don't care about their gentalia; it's for their own selves. You seem to not understand the majority of people though because they are the ones who first labeled people as transgender and who do end up caring whether a person has male or female gentalia and their past history. We fucking wish you guys stopped caring.


actually, thats almost exactly what i said.
in fact i think i said something along the lines of it being aesthetics to make you feel better about your self because the rest of us dont care.
you dont need surgery to role play a man in society. we have laws that guarantee your equality, even if they are a little skewed.
the only person that cares about your gender and genitalia is you. any addiction you have to prescription hormones is to suit your aesthetic desires, not to fool others into thinking youre actually not the gender you were born as.

you got the label as transgenders because you get pissed off when we refer to you as the wrong gender.
im sorry, but as far as im concerned, when i see a man with boobs its still a man regardless if he wants to be called a woman, a leprechaun, or the tooth fairy. its irrelevant to me what role he wants to play in society.
though im pretty sure the original term was he/she or she/he and it was you all who chose to be known as transpeople

i really think you just want to be angry and pretend to be persecuted because people dont understand you.
honestly, i dont think the majority of people really care about you. i think thats what bugs you. i think you want to be someone special that draws attention to your plight and have the world treat you differently because you have some special case of something or other.


RIGHTTT. No one cares about this topic at all, especially not you sir who has argued with me extensively on this topic as a means of showing your lack of care for this topic.

Wow, I've suddenly been persuaded by your strong opinions that the discomfort I've felt all these years was completely imagined. It appears that thinking logically, my inner assertion of my mismatched sex was simply a way to get people to yell at me because I'm actually a giant masochistic attention-seeker. I would come out as gay but why would anyone unless they were lying to themselves to get attention. They love the opposite sex afterall because that's simply biology and no one gives a fuck about gentalia so how can they even assert that they are gay? If we're talking romantically, if gay people could look past gender roles then they could just love people of the opposite sex who appear more masculine or more feminine. Man everything works out so easily when we're simply talking theories and discrediting the feelings of the ones involved.





swirly_commode wrote:

i never said nobody cares about this topic. i said nobody cares about you or your genitalia
and what youve been feeling all these years is called puberty. it will pass, youll get laid and move on with your life.
youre also very confused about sex, homosexuality, and attention whores.
you need some friends


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Posted 10/16/13 , edited 10/16/13

I wish it was only an aesthetics problem. The anxiety and depression from it is stacked on top of my other more fixable issues making it impossible for me to actually make any sort of commitments to move beyond where I am, so it's more of a case of me wanting to move on in life for once. You know, instead of holing myself up in my room from all of the anxiety attacks.

And, I'm pretty sure that they do care since insurance will help pay for hormones, other transgender people do care, people throw fits about our existence enough to regularly harass transgenders, and that there is quite a lot of money to make off of trangenders through the various "AESTHETIC" surgeries. There is also the video below, which is bits creepy, makes some arguement points sound a bit hypocritical for the haters, and NSFW.


Also, the same theocratic pushing of creationism also pushes that hole "it's just aesthetics" argument when confronting transgenders, just so you know.
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Posted 10/16/13

MopZ wrote:


I wish it was only an aesthetics problem. The anxiety and depression from it is stacked on top of my other more fixable issues making it impossible for me to actually make any sort of commitments to move beyond where I am, so it's more of a case of me wanting to move on in life for once. You know, instead of holing myself up in my room from all of the anxiety attacks.

And, I'm pretty sure that they do care since insurance will help pay for hormones, other transgender people do care, people throw fits about our existence enough to regularly harass transgenders, and that there is quite a lot of money to make off of trangenders through the various "AESTHETIC" surgeries. There is also the video below, which is bits creepy, makes some arguement points sound a bit hypocritical for the haters, and NSFW.


Also, the same theocratic pushing of creationism also pushes that hole "it's just aesthetics" argument when confronting transgenders, just so you know.


you arent going through puberty with typical teen sexuality issues. that angry kid is and he sounds to me like he just wants to be part of a persecuted group for attention more than anything.
insurance companies dont care about you or me or anyone else, they just want your money and will usually come up with any excuse they can to take it from you, same with doctors who perform the surgeries.
i have no problem with adults doing whatever they want to their bodies for any reason. i am not in your situation and cant know what it is you are feeling and think you need to do to alleviate it. lots of people have anxiety issues and depression. and, yes, as far as functioning in society goes, looks and genitalia are just aesthetic issues. in some work places its forbidden to even mention that some employees have boobs or dont have them, its a shortcut to sexual harassment charges.
have you ever considered that your mental health is do to a hang up you have over genitalia that you just need to get used to and not get surgery to "correct" your body to suit your idea of perfection? maybe its just a warped sense of perfection you have and not a need to change your body?
as ignorant and possibly offensive as those questions may be, they are honest questions. but i also think that the current trend in political correctness hinders a lot of open discussions on most subjects. answer what you will or flame me if you wish.
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Posted 10/16/13
oh, and to answer the OPs question, again, gender or sex are not independent of biology.
how you view them is.

no matter how you change your body, you will always be of the same sex/gender as yuo were born as.
you dont get to change the definitions of terms to suit your ideals.
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