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Post Reply Can anime surpass current mainstream shows?
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Posted 9/8/13

Bluexzx wrote:


badisglaid wrote:

EDIT: wow am i the only one who thinks attack on titan is far better than any mainstream action show or movie currently? fights, music, plot, idea and characters wise?

Okay so after i'v abandoned hollywood movies and popular TV series because i had my hands full with watching so much anime i decided to give iron man 3 a chance and it felt very underwhelming as opposed to the emotions i got from Aot or Hunter x Hunter's episodes, hell even some moments within the big 3.

i really do think that the stories, the designs and the characters depicted by the Japanese are far superior and more original than any mainstream show currently.

and if anime ever had the opportunity to showcase to the world what it really is i believe it would conquer the mainstream entertainment, and if that is accomplished we will have more shows, better animation and more stories to tell due to the budgets being exponentially increased and subsequently increasing the potential of the anime industry.

EDIT: since the replies weren't centered around one subject let me be specific and raise two questions:

1) Is anime Better than current mainstream american shows? (not in terms of popularity)
2) Will anime one day be as popular as or even surpass mainstream shows and become subsequently the mainstream media?


1. By mainstream american shows, name a few examples because I'm really lost to what you're trying to asking.

There are shows that can be considered mainstream like Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, Game of Thrones, True Blood, etc.
However there are very popular shows like The Walking Dead, The Big Bang Theory, etc.

2. Anime will be as popular and I think will be able to be an equal to mainstream shows, but surpassing is asking too much in my opinion. Until society accepts the fact that animation can be good as live action, surpassing will never happen.

I can't predict if anime will become subsequently mainstream media, I can say that animation in general can but specifically anime. I'm unsure.


all of the shows you named
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Posted 9/8/13 , edited 9/8/13

badisglaid wrote:

EDIT: since the replies weren't centered around one subject let me be specific and raise two questions:

1) Is anime Better than current mainstream american shows? (not in terms of popularity)
2) Will anime one day be as popular as or even surpass mainstream shows and become subsequently the mainstream media?


1. By mainstream american shows, name a few examples because I'm really lost to what you're trying to asking.

There are shows that can be considered mainstream like Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, Game of Thrones, True Blood, etc.
However there are very popular shows like The Walking Dead, The Big Bang Theory, etc.

2. Anime will be as popular and I think will be able to be an equal to mainstream shows, but surpassing is asking too much in my opinion. Until society accepts the fact that animation can be good as live action, surpassing will never happen.

I can't predict if anime will become subsequently mainstream media, I can say that animation in general can but specifically anime. I'm unsure.


all of the shows you named :)

------------------

I can't say anime is better than the shows I mentioned, it's all based on personal opinion. If you're asking for mine, I say anime is equal to mainstream american shows; basically a cop out - I choose both as winners. It's way too difficult to compare some of these critically acclaimed live action shows to very great anime; there's no way to compare.

That's why I say none is better than the other.

Personal bias, I find Breaking Bad to be incomparable to any other show. It's way too good to be compared to anime! >=[
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Posted 9/8/13 , edited 9/8/13
I stopped watching TV about 2 years ago tbh. I used to follow some TV series like Smallville, Supernatural, The Big Bang Theory, etc. I used to watch more TV back in 2000-2006 but then stopped watching almost altogether nowadays.

As for anime surpassing mainstream shows, I think probably not as of now but maybe in the future when it has more influence. More anime series have been coming out in recent years from the lineup as compared to the past. However as far as sales and ratings go, there are gaps and differences. I have not kept up with the recent trends in American TV so I'm not sure how the networks' series are doing though.
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Posted 9/8/13
You guys should watch Gigguk's video on YouTube about this topic. He makes some pretty good points about it.
As for me, I'm not sure if anime can surpass current mainstream shows mostly because of the overall image the general public seems to have of it. A lot of people I know just think that anime is stupid or weird, which saddens me because it offers a lot of very unique and creative stories, and they would realize that it they just gave it a chance.
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Posted 9/8/13
I don't think that Anime will ever surpass "mainstream" shows because of the image it has.

I'm sure we all have non-anime liking fans and when I ask them why they always give me the same answer. And I quote "Isn't that porn?" or "Dude that stuff if for little kids". Most of the Anime that is widely avalible to the western audience are the more popluar things that air on Toonami, and most of it consists of popular shonen shows, that frankly even I can't take seriously at time. I'm not saying that I don't my super shonen shows with deus ex machina power ups.

But I do like to think that my friends make a good point. Most of western audiences see anime as is nothing more than childish fighting shows, or some sort of perverted show with panty shots ever couple of seconds. Most of the more darker or mature stuff that anime has never really becomes popular enough for it to get any real attention. Sure stuff like Fate/Zero is popluar and it's bith mature and dark, but when was the last time you and your co-workers had a conversation on who's idealogy was right when it came to Fate/Zero?

The anime fan base doesn't help anime's image much either.



This just being on of the many sterotypes anime lovers have to put up with. Why because there are some people that take their hobbies to the extreme. Not saying that's a bad thing, but when trying to convert someone to the anime side yeah this kind of image doesn't help at all.

In my opinion, if anime ever really wants to break out of it's niche corner of the internet and become "mainstream" it's gonna have to change, but would current anime be happy with anime that forces change to be widely popular? But those are just my two cents on the matter.
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Posted 9/8/13 , edited 9/9/13
I'd very much doubt it. In fact, I'd say for it to come close is almost impossible. Here's my take on it.

Anime is one of those mediums which appeals to a very niche audience. Whichever way you look at it, anime is weird, though some more than others. Whilst I agree Attack on Titan is brilliant you've got to look at it like this: Are people going to prefer watching the heroes fight a super villain or giant naked people? You compared Iron Man and AOT and how connected you became, but it's easier to become more connected to characters through an anime as obviously a full season of a show is longer than a few hours.

Next lets look at what anime is, which is animation i.e. animated pictures commonly associated with cartoons. What demographic are cartoons associated with? Yup, children. I think this puts plenty of people off because no matter which way you look at it, most of them have the mindset that animated pictures are for kids regardless of what happens.

Next off, it's limited to anywhere that isn't Japan which makes it hard to get the word out on anything that isn't a cartoon. Linking with the previous point, of the anime that IS in the west it's all kiddie stuff like Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh and so on which are all, really made with kids in mind. This completely gets rid of the idea that anime can even appeal adults because they think it's all focussed at children. It would be really risky and difficult to try and introduce something so different because, well, how do you go about it? It's difficult to show one mature show because if it doesn't appeal to most people, they'll probably then think all mature anime will be terrible. How about you show a bunch at once? That would require a lot of money, I'd imagine. Would they have the budget?

Another problem comes from actually listening to it. Let's be honest, TV wouldn't probably be as popular as it is today if everything was in a foreign language with subtitles. For some people, simply hearing a language that isn't theirs frustrates them because it sounds like jibberish and they don't like the sound of another accent. Therefore, the anime industry would have to put a lot of work into getting dubs out rather than just subtitles. Hell, I have a film called Ong-Bak, a fighting film in Thailand , which has subtitles and dubbing. My parents, despite how god awfully 80s in terms of quality the dubbing sounds, would prefer to listen to that than read the subs. Now I too prefer dubs as long as they're not balls to the wall awful, but they didn't even care. It's not easy if English isn't your native language to know whether the dubbing cast is good or terrible, and what's more it costs even more money. Because some don't even have a dub this would probably either affect the number of views or the amount of anime available dramatically. You can't really appeal to both the dub audience and the sub audience at the same time. And of course, we want those subs as accurate as possible. The last thing we'd need is someone to check out anime for the first time, only for the first line to be 'I'll now proceed to pleasure myself with this fish'.

On the subject of audience; which shows do you show? There's such a big difference between, say, Death Note and K-On, which do you think are going to appeal the most? Arguably you'd need multiple channels which show different genre's but again, money, money, money. And, like everything, there are the bad ones as well. Whether it's bad or not is all a matter of opinion. You can't go off the ratings received in Japan alone because some that do badly there do great in the west, while the opposite also applies.
Also on the topic of genre's are the controversial issues that are touched upon. Some can touch on things such as rape, and with so many highschool shows it's not uncommon to see highschoolers, who are kids, being killed. Then there are things like Oreimo which talk about incest. There are also things like the sexualization of characters and fanservice of characters still in school, or even moe stuff. How openly accepting would other countries be willing to be? Where would these controversial issues go? Japan does all sorts of shit many others would find weird, and with places like Britain, America etc. being so different culture wise, what would they think? Couldn't some of this stuff unintentionally give off negative views of Japan to the world?

Then there's the image of the anime crowd. Yeah, remember all those arguments on websites such as Youtube which spark off the second anime is mentioned? Me too. Many anime watchers are stereotyped as 'obese weeaboo nerds' who have a fetish for anything and everything Japanese. In a world where everyone strives to be 'cool' that's not the image they want to be associated with so naturally avoid anime in the first place. Most people who talk down about anime usually haven't given it a chance, and this is usually the big reason why. Like every hobby, there are the weirdos and the assholes of the community which nobody likes, but most people aren't willing to view it like this.

Another problem is the artistic style. Regardless of how the designs can vary, they all have a style they stick relatively close to for the most part. When it comes to shows with real people, I can guarantee you most audiences won't go 'I don't like the look of these actors' and turn it off. We are humans, so naturally aren't opposed to the look of all other humans. Anime characters are not human, so it's not unlikely that people could think 'what's with their big eyes and everything? It looks so weird' and be turned off by something as trivial as that. The only other choice is to overhaul what we see as anime design, but then it wouldn't be the anime we know and love.

After all that, do you even want anime to become mainstream? Part of the beauty of it being so niche is that the developers are so much more open to trying different things. In comparison to the games industry, for example, Call Of Duty became mainstream, and in return we received crappy marketing strategies and onslaughts of shooters on the market. I think anime, while it would be nice for more people to accept it, is fine as it is, and better off as a smaller market rather than a mainstream one. Trying to make the culture of one area appeal to a completely separate one as much as their own so much that it can even match the popularity of their own media seems a nigh impossible achievement. So long as all these problems are in the way, I don't think it stands a chance of being as popular as it is in its place of origin.


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Posted 9/8/13
1. I think anime is better then current mainstream shows and movies, that is my opinion, like you said, I think the there's more emotion and the action and what not is just awesome.
2. We won't know unless it happens, I have wondered this myself, I think it is possible as long as they showcase shows like Attack on Titan I can't think of any others at the moment but my point is as long as they don't show case something ecchi to the world then it would probably make it, a lot of people get deterred by ecchi
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Posted 9/8/13
I've gotta end up feeling that anime will end up about on par with western animation for cultural impact, even as the borders between the 2 somewhat blur.

As far as mainstream mainstream entertainment, anime is somewhat fringe even in japan (always barring a few high profile shows), especially among adults. So I wouldn't expect much on cartoons catching up with other adult fare.
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Posted 9/8/13
1) Yes and no. Yes it is better than some mainstream shows, but no in not all of them, and even then we are talking about the cream of the crop anime. Unfortunately nothing is better than Game of Thrones, imo. That one show is why I still have HBO.

2) No. Not in America at least. America as a whole has it forever ingrained in its society that cartoons/animation is for kids. If it is animated, it is instantly meant for kids. As such anime will never become the premier entertainment in America. Hell video games are still struggling with getting out of the idea that all video games are meant for kids(there is a reason a lot of uneducated parents will buy their 10 year-olds M-rated games and then complain when little Johnny is caught splitting open skulls or having virtual sex with another character).
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Posted 9/8/13

windsagio wrote:

I've gotta end up feeling that anime will end up about on par with western animation for cultural impact, even as the borders between the 2 somewhat blur.

As far as mainstream mainstream entertainment, anime is somewhat fringe even in japan (always barring a few high profile shows), especially among adults. So I wouldn't expect much on cartoons catching up with other adult fare.


you speak like any other ignorant who has no idea what anime even is, you truly think just because it's animation or "Cartoons" like you call it anime can't tell a fascinating adult story? it already has and it continues to. i'd take a top notch anime action/fight scene over any CGI'ish action sequence in hollywood blockbuster movies anytime of day.
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Posted 9/8/13
I watch a lot more anime than normal TV but this i have to say. Western TV plots of good shows are MUCH more well done than a lot of animes. They understand a lot of things that many animes don't have and they fit also with the western way of thinking. Anime to be come more common it has to be more like Bebop, Gits, Black Lagoon in that its darker in Western style .... much deeper plots with less tropes.
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Posted 9/8/13
regardless of how good a series or movie is, it is very hard to get past the mentality that "Cartoon" = "for children"

It's too ingrained now.

But there is room for Western Media to adapt anime storytelling.

Most TV when I was younger focused on Closed Storytelling. Each episode of a show had to be written in such a way that they could stand alone and not confuse new viewers. Each episode ended with the characters in pretty much the same position they were in at the episode start with a goal of nothing should really change because we don't want to alienate new viewers (because less viewers means less advertising dollars). At best you might get a 2 part story as an end of season cliffhanger

That is what really got me into Anime. The Stories would progress from episode to episode, if you missed one episode you risked getting lost. Things changed, people died, the stories grew.

somewhere along the way Western Television started to get the hint. I think Buffy was the first TV show I saw that had an ongoing story, and even still it was still episodic contained within each Season's metaplot.

Now all the good TV shows are doing it. Somewhere along the line TV producers realized that if the story progresses people get invested in it. They talk more about it and speculate on what happens next. Also DVD sales and Online streams make it easier for people to catch up.

The shift to this style of storytelling has not be smooth though. We have had a lot of failed shows, some of them pretty good shows that just didn't get that initial audience. Producers are starting to look for things that less risky and that means pre-existing stories with a built in audience instead of brand new stories that may or may not work.
They managed to snag some top selling book series like Game of Thrones, the Sookie Stackhouse stories and Vampire Diaries. After Smallville they are poking around other comic book properties like Green Arrow and SHIELD. so where else do they look?

Tadaa here is a huge pile of Anime and Manga. Sift through the harems, magical girls, tentacles and giant robots and you start to find some deep stories. Huge plot lines, gripping cliffhangers and engaging characters. Stories with an existing audience already.

HBO is already looking at Monster.

US TV producers are looking for the next Big Thing and they want to find it while taking as few risks as possible. Adapting an Anime or Manga for live TV is a good option, if the existing fanbase can keep the show afloat long enough for other people to get hooked on it.

So I think Anime will become a part of mainstream TV in the west. just not as anime. It'll most likely be as US adaptations of successful series from Japan.
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Posted 9/8/13

badisglaid wrote:


you speak like any other ignorant who has no idea what anime even is, you truly think just because it's animation or "Cartoons" like you call it anime can't tell a fascinating adult story? it already has and it continues to. i'd take a top notch anime action/fight scene over any CGI'ish action sequence in hollywood blockbuster movies anytime of day.


I misread the OP and was talking about popularity not quality.

Quality... well that's tough, it's a terribly dangerous subject to go into, people get sensitive about things they love... and we all love anime or we wouldn't be talking here.

~~

That being said, there's a hugely unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio in anime, and even the shows that are good tend to be TERRIBLY cliche'. They really like these specific roles (it's even ingrained into their geek culture) and specific scenarios, and very few break out.

That said, there's an itch there that the genre scratches, that really can't be fulfilled any other way, and they have an excellent visual language that translates well.

In all honesty, most of it is tripe, but most of 'mainstream' entertainment is utter tripe too, at least anime isn't quite so soul-destroyingly dull.

~~~



I guess it comes down to this: It's certainly not worse, but being better than mainstream TV is not exactly a lofty goal.
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Posted 9/8/13 , edited 9/8/13


I really hop this means Attack on Titain, GITS and Bebop get a good look at as possable shows. They really are good over all and stand in a lot of ways. Plus that they are more western loved would help them greatly. Or I mean are less fanservicely than typical(like none) anime.
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Posted 9/8/13
1) Is anime Better than current mainstream american shows? (not in terms of popularity)
2) Will anime one day be as popular as or even surpass mainstream shows and become subsequently the mainstream media?

1a. yes, a million times yes, I hated TV growing up, I stopped watching TV all together a few years back. The only shows that I enjoyed were mythbusters and hauntings. (Spongebob too)

2a. simple and short. No.
I like it this way better, anyway.

I shiver at the though of Hollywood entering the Anime world. You guys remember dragonball evolution... OTL still have nightmares
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