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Post Reply EU and Middle East Territories for Kill la Kill
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Posted 11/16/13

TheAncientOne wrote:


never_knows_best wrote: I've been following Kill La Kill and Samurai Flamenco over on that Wakanim site, they have to be two of the best shows out of this awesome season, but I really don't like their set up over there and I have to stream on my Mac instead of my PS3. I really don't get how they managed to pull it off though, literally only two shows on the whole site and they beat Crunchyroll to them.

It is less of a race and more of a bidding war. A company seeking to establish itself will be willing to take a loss to do so.

Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't (i.e., Anime on Demand).

The major issue will be how well the sales of the digital downloads go, since that is a royalty source that Crunchyroll is not set up to tap into.

Though that cuts both ways ~ if the digital downloads end up being a large enough slice of their royalties, it might be worth their while to sublicense to Crunchyroll in return for cross-marketing their digital downloads to UK members.
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Posted 11/16/13
PLEASE AIR ATTACK ON TITAN IN AUSTRALIA
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37 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 11/17/13
A question for some of the other UK types asking about this show...

People are still asking for Kill la kill to be available on Crunchyroll, despite being available on Wakanim UK.
I'm just curious as to how many people ask because:
- They didn't know anyone had got the UK streaming rights.
- They prefer CR as a content platform.

I know I'm in the second category and therefore tend to assume everyone is like that. But I'm genuinely interested to know how many people just don't know Wakanim has it versus how many people just want it on CR anyway.
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Posted 11/17/13

WhyIsSasukeSoFknPretty wrote: PLEASE AIR ATTACK ON TITAN IN AUSTRALIA

For that to happen, there needs to be a deal between Madman and Crunchyroll.

Madman seems to be releasing Attack on Titan on home video sometime ~ they would be using the Funimation dub, so Funimation's announcement of a release date would give a clue when Madman would be in a position to release it. Crunchyroll only got the KILL la KILL rights because of the hole in security that let people copy the episode before its broadcast date, so Crunchyroll is not likely to get Oz rights to Attack on Titan the same way.

If there was a package deal between Madman and Crunchyroll, where Crunchyroll paid royalties and gave some cross marketing benefits to Madman to Oz/NZ members in return for Crunchyroll adding Oz/NZ to their titles with Oz/NZ rights held by Madman, then that would share Attack on Titan from Screening Room to Crunchyroll.
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Posted 11/17/13

agila61 wrote:Crunchyroll only got the KILL la KILL rights because of the hole in security that let people copy the episode before its broadcast date, so Crunchyroll is not likely to get Oz rights to Attack on Titan the same way.


That's actually the most annoying thing about the whole situation.

OK, form a purely business point of view, it makes sense. A problem like this causing the rights to be renegotiated so that the Australian/New Zealander viewers don't lose out for a situaiton that wasn't their fault.

From a customer point of view in the still-unavailable territories, it just feels like a further kick in the teeth.
Because of a screw-up in Australia, the show has moved from a web-only service to a multi-platform service. AUS/NZ CR premium subscribers still get access to decent quality simulcast, and gain app suport. Free users at least get the one-week delay in SD, as opposed to their region losing out entirely.
But ere in the UK, where noone did anything wrong, the show is still on a highly restricted platform. And any other unavailable territories have that at best, and no official way to watch it at all at worst.

So, rightly or wrongly, it feels like we get punished for not having a security breach in our territory.
Sure, this isn't a true or fair take on the facts. But it's certainly how it feels.
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Posted 11/17/13

TiggsPanther wrote: From a customer point of view in the still-unavailable territories, it just feels like a further kick in the teeth.

Because of a screw-up in Australia, the show has moved from a web-only service to a multi-platform service. AUS/NZ CR premium subscribers still get access to decent quality simulcast, and gain app suport. Free users at least get the one-week delay in SD, as opposed to their region losing out entirely.

But ere in the UK, where noone did anything wrong, the show is still on a highly restricted platform. And any other unavailable territories have that at best, and no official way to watch it at all at worst.

Of course, that will hit different people differently. For people who stream on their PC, its the same multiple-subscription for ad-free streaming as US members face when Funimation licenses a title. For those who prefer the download to streaming, they are better off from the free Wakanim downloads, and the availability of Wakanim DRM free paid downloads.

For those who watch on various devices, its the difference between Pay-Per-View for DRM free downloads, which can be watched on an even wider range of devices than Crunchryoll, and "all you can eat" pricing for Crunchyroll. For me, I definitely prefer the "all you can eat" pricing unless its one of the few series I consider to be collectible ~ and neither KILL la KILL nor Samurai Flamenco is in that group for me.

And, yes, device access seems to be better across the board on Crunchyroll, but I'm setting that aside, since people who aren't paying should expect access to be catch as catch can.


So, rightly or wrongly, it feels like we get punished for not having a security breach in our territory.
Sure, this isn't a true or fair take on the facts. But it's certainly how it feels.

Yeah, though that depends on how interested you are in downloads. Crunchyroll subscribers with no interest in downloads are the losers if Wakanim gets a title, while people who prefer downloads are the winners.

If AllTheAnime and Wakanim would work out a deal with Crunchyroll, then it would be win-win, but on the normal pace of business negotations, we wouldn't expect that to be worked out for a season or two, even if there is a deal there to be made.
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Posted 11/17/13 , edited 11/17/13

agila61 wrote:

Yeah, though that depends on how interested you are in downloads. Crunchyroll subscribers with no interest in downloads are the losers if Wakanim gets a title, while people who prefer downloads are the winners.


And here's the problem. For brand-new, first-watch, will-probably-get-a-home-release titles, I personally have zero interest in a pay-per-episode download. Or at least, not at their current prices. Adding those one-series costs to the eventual money i'll be paying for the Blu-ray release and that's more than I want to spend.

The ability to (legally) keep up with the latest shows in pretty much realtime is exactly why I have a CR subscription. It's basically how i choose what shows I want to watch again, at a reasonable monthly rate, as nice and official alternative to when i used to use fansubs for that purpose.

And, one their PS3 app comes out, I will also be subscribing to Animax for access to their catalogue. Both services on my TV, where they belong.

Now for older shows that haven't got a home release, or who are DVD-only in the UK, that's exactly what I've always wanted a DRM-free pay-per-episode download service for.
but for simulcasts? TV App streaming subcriptions all the way.


If AllTheAnime and Wakanim would work out a deal with Crunchyroll, then it would be win-win, but on the normal pace of business negotations, we wouldn't expect that to be worked out for a season or two, even if there is a deal there to be made.


Which sucks. Like i said, it feels like the UK loses out for not getting a security breach. 'Cos if that'd happened here, resulting in the UK streaming going to CR, I'd've been pleased. I can't help it. The show just looks perfect on my TV, and I would it if i could do so whilst staying legal. To my mind, the wrong service got the rights.
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Posted 11/17/13 , edited 11/17/13

TiggsPanther wrote: And here's the problem. For brand-new, first-watch, will-probably-get-a-home-release titles, I personally have zero interest in a pay-per-episode download. Or at least, not at their current prices. Adding those one-series costs to the eventual money i'll be paying for the Blu-ray release and that's more than I want to spend.

Though for those who complain about streaming because of bandwidth limits also get ad-funded rental downloads.

And its up in the air how temporary the device limitations of Wakanim are ... device support for their ad-supported DRM rental downloads is one obvious strategy for increasing their advertising revenues, depending on how much it costs to implement.

Also, AllTheAnime has explicitly said that they are willing to talk with Crunchyroll about sharing simulcasts, while Madman has never said anything along those lines that I am aware of. Obviously if they work something out, then all of their streams will immediately gain all of the device access that Crunchyroll has.

However, while Crunchyroll has a demonstrated willingness to work with whichever firm holds the licenses, and while AllTheAnime has talked the talk, AllTheAnime has yet to demonstrate that it can walk the walk. So it would seem that continuing to let AllTheAnime know that they are going to get both broader exposure and a happier market by sharing their simulcasts with Crunchyroll than otherwise would be the obvious move for UK members dissatisfied with the current arrangement.


The ability to (legally) keep up with the latest shows in pretty much realtime is exactly why I have a CR subscription. It's basically how i choose what shows I want to watch again, at a reasonable monthly rate, as nice and official alternative to when i used to use fansubs for that purpose.

And that's why when there's only one or two series I am following on Hulu or Funimation, I watch those on ad-streaming, which is the alternative for UK anime fans who want to watch KILL la KILL on Wakanim, as long as they catch it in the first month.


And, one their PS3 app comes out, I will also be subscribing to Animax for access to their catalogue. Both services on my TV, where they belong.

Its not surprising that a Sony subsidiary supports the PS3, but how quickly will it support XBox, Android and Apple? Of course, how annoying that ends up being will depend in part on how many of their streams are poached from Crunchyroll licenses, and how many are from the streams that Crunchyroll is not getting access to.


Now for older shows that haven't got a home release, or who are DVD-only in the UK, that's exactly what I've always wanted a DRM-free pay-per-episode download service for. but for simulcasts? TV App streaming subcriptions all the way.

Which is just as I said ~ how annoyed people are by the current Wakanim licenses depends in part on how appealing they find the download option. You're not into it at all for simulcasts, and are quite understandably annoyed with the current Wakanim licenses.



If AllTheAnime and Wakanim would work out a deal with Crunchyroll, then it would be win-win, but on the normal pace of business negotations, we wouldn't expect that to be worked out for a season or two, even if there is a deal there to be made.

Which sucks.

I can't work out why it sucks that AllTheAnime has said its willing to consider working out a deal with Crunchyroll.
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Posted 11/17/13
Kill La Kill is amazing!!!
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Posted 11/17/13

agila61 wrote:
I can't work out why it sucks that AllTheAnime has said its willing to consider working out a deal with Crunchyroll.


I more meant that it sucks that it won't be any time soon. Crunchyroll (and Animax, once they have at least one TV-compatible app) are perfect platforms for simulcasts. The all-you-can-eat model is perfect for first-run shows.

I maintain that Wakanim would have been additional method of watching these shows. but as an exlclusive method, it bites.
Web-only streaming isn't ideal. Rental download is still computer only. Permanent download requires pay-per-episode, which isn't ideal for first-run shows.

I'm watching Kill la Kill... elsewhere. More "legally" though, I'm just flat-out avoiding Samurai Flamenco until it is availably officially on a TV platform.
More legal, but every bit as much a "lost view". And, strangely, not watching at all actually feels like i'm being more petty than is I was grabbing a fansub.

Both of their opening shows were ones I was looking forward to before any licensing was announced. When I saw the titles were on CR, I was over the moon... until i saw the region list. When Wakanim was announced, I was happy the the shows came the the UK... until I saw they had no TV app or any near-future plans to have one.
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Posted 11/18/13
How about getting more things available in the UK pl0x
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Posted 11/18/13 , edited 11/18/13

TiggsPanther wrote:

agila61 wrote: I can't work out why it sucks that AllTheAnime has said its willing to consider working out a deal with Crunchyroll.

I more meant that it sucks that it won't be any time soon.

But it could indeed be sometime soon ~ like I said, if both sides are serious about working together, a deal might be worked out in one or two more broadcast seasons. Three to six months would be fairly soon.

I was just cautioning people to not to expect it to be "all or nothing" about it happening on the very short term time scale of internet forum discussions. People should probably suspend judgement on whether or not AllTheAnime is serious about their interest in working with streaming subscription sites until a couple of seasons have passed.


RedXVIII wrote: How about getting more things available in the UK pl0x

We don't know what is going on with Toriko and One Piece, but they seem to be a package deal, so its likely to be the same thing. Negotiating rights that include a long running, blockbuster series are tricky ~ look at the two years or more that this deal took Crunchyroll to negotiate ~ and its quite possible that either AllTheAnime is negotiating to stream them on Wakanim or AnimaxUK is negotiating to stream them in their subscriber site. Its also possible that the European rights were simply not yet cleaned up from the "broadcast rights plus exclusive streaming" days of a decade ago, while North America, Latin America, Oz/NZ/ZA rights were already cleaned up so they were available.

For the seasonal simulcasts, there are two North America-only series, four series taken by competing streaming services ~ two by AnimaxUK, two by Wakanim ~ and AFAIR three other series without UK rights.

Since Crunchyroll can't do much about competing UK services winning the rights where they are willing to outbid Crunchyroll, so that involves pushing whomever they get the two North America-only rights from to include UK streaming rights in their package, and working out whatever is the problem with the remaining three titles. There's no way that Crunchyroll gets over 20 series for the UK without working hard to get UK rights, so its pretty safe to assume that Crunchyroll is already working on both of those challenges.
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Posted 11/18/13

agila61 wrote:

But it could indeed be sometime soon ~ like I said, if both sides are serious about working together, a deal might be worked out in one or two more broadcast seasons. Three to six months would be fairly soon.

I was just cautioning people to not to expect it to be "all or nothing" about it happening on the very short term time scale of internet forum discussions. People should probably suspend judgement on whether or not AllTheAnime is serious about their interest in working with streaming subscription sites until a couple of seasons have passed.


I'm not thinking in terms of "internet forum timescales", though. I'm thinking in terms of "broadcast seasons" in the terms of "can I actually watch a current show or not".
Until I can be certain that shows will show up on Crunchyroll (or even Animax), I'll spend every Announcement Season hoping against hope that Wakanim don't get a show.

Which isn't really what I want, as I do think the service has great potential as an additional access method. But as long as there's a danger of them being the only access method, I find myself hoping they don't get any licenses. But then that's bad for the long-term.
Ultimately, though, I just want to be able to stream stuff to my TV via a console, so I don't need to torrent or avoid shows. As they are the only options for me, as I will not watch web-only streams.

The best way I can sum up the whole Kill la Kill situation is how i already did on Facebook recently:

I wrote:

For new shows, that I would eventually intend to buy on Blu-ray, I can't see myself paying per episode. Not if I intend to buy them again. But a monthly subscription to legally trial shows before buying? Hell yeah!

So, yeah, Wakanim getting the exclusive UK rights confuses and annoys me. Wakanim's service sounds like a perfect secondary method of watching shows. But as the only legal method? It sucks.
Short of connecting the computer to the TV, and navigating via keyboard instead of remote, there is no legal way at all of watching Kill la Kill on a TV at the moment. And even when the get the download rights sorted, it'll still be only available via pay-per-episode rates.

The real kicker is that I am excited to see a download-to-own DRM-free service setting up shop in the UK for some archive titles. But for eagerly anticipated shows like Kill la Kill, sadly it feels to me like the wrong company snagged the rights. I want to like them for embracing DRM-free downloads, but instead I resent them for keeping the rights off a paid service I already use and completely fits my viewing habits.

Hopefully, future licences will be shared with other services. Not sniped from them.
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Posted 11/18/13 , edited 11/18/13

TiggsPanther wrote: The best way I can sum up the whole Kill la Kill situation is how i already did on Facebook recently:

I hope that was at or crossposted to AllTheAnime's facebook page. They are excellent points that AllTheAnime needs to keep in mind as they decide whether to enter into a deal with Crunchyroll.


TiggsPanther wrote: Ultimately, though, I just want to be able to stream stuff to my TV via a console, so I don't need to torrent or avoid shows. As they are the only options for me, as I will not watch web-only streams.

In my opinion, that is a reasonable position for someone who is willing to pay a subscription for that convenience. I'm hoping that AllTheAnime gives substance to their talk of being willing to work with streaming subscription sites, since it makes much more sense for them to market their downloads to the UK audience already established by the 20+ simulcasts that Crunchyroll is able to get for the UK ... which AllTheAnime will never, ever, be able to match.

I have very little sympathy for that "I will not watch web-only streams" position when it comes from someone also demanding free anime. So if that is premium-only, and the free streaming access is the existing one-month-free streams, to my mind that would be a reasonable deal for Crunchyroll to take ... given that IMO people looking for free streams should expect that access to be catch as catch can.
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Posted 11/18/13

agila61 wrote:
I hope that was at or crossposted to AllTheAnime's facebook page. They are excellent points that AllTheAnime needs to keep in mind as they decide whether to enter into a deal with Crunchyroll.


Yeah. Well, I tagged Wakanim UK in the post, and it does show up in their "posts from other users" feed, and I assume they've got a notification about it.

Even if they don't directly respond to it, I hope that they at least gave it a read. What I say may not always be flattering, but I at least try to explain my irritation. After all, surely knowing that people are annoyed it useless unless they are given (hopefully) thought out reason as to why people are annoyed.



In my opinion, that is a reasonable position for someone who is willing to pay a subscription for that convenience. I'm hoping that AllTheAnime gives substance to their talk of being willing to work with streaming subscription sites, since it makes much more sense for them to market their downloads to the UK audience already established by the 20+ simulcasts that Crunchyroll is able to get for the UK ... which AllTheAnime will never, ever, be able to match.


And yeah, I am willing to pay. I am currently a paid CR subscriber. I'm also a paid Spotify user, for pretty much the same reason. I have no problem paying monthly for the privilege of being able to legally sample nearly anything I want to try, ahead of buying.

And that's also where my annoyance at Wakanim/All the Anime comes from. Not only is there not an "all you can eat" option, but Kill la Kill is strictly streaming-only until they get the last licensing details sorted out. So I couldn't pay to watch on my TV right now, even if I wanted to.


I have very little sympathy for that "I will not watch web-only streams" position when it comes from someone also demanding free anime. So if that is premium-only, and the free streaming access is the existing one-month-free streams, to my mind that would be a reasonable deal for Crunchyroll to take ... given that IMO people looking for free streams should expect that access to be catch as catch can.


And yeah, that's perfectly understandable. As I said, I have no problem with paid subscriptions. Once they have a PS3 app, I'll probably also subscribe to Animax UK, for some of the other titles. Especially if their streaming solution is up to the task.

If i didn't want to pay, I'd probably just torrent everything to play through my NAS/HTPC setup. Instead, I'm enjoying paying a modest fee to have the bulk of my Anime being legal. And am hoping that the licensing situation shifts towards allowing that to shift from "only a few fansubs" to "not using fansubs at all".

Since joining CR back in February, I have enjoyed being able to keep up to date with the latest shows completely legally. And even if I still have a few stylistic preferences towards the "free" fansub alternative, I'm glad to be paying for a convenient alternative that is also legal.

I just wish CR was able to get the UK rights for more of the shows they already handle elsewhere.
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