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Post Reply Living Under a Boulder? Reasons to Watch Attack on Titan.
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Posted 9/21/13 , edited 9/21/13

vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:

SHUT UP ALREADY! It's a mediocre show at best with shounen battle manga-type writing and shallow characters (I mean, even the author doesn't care a **** for his characters, except the ones that are absolutely necessary for an easily-written plot).

There are much, MUCH better series running this season, so how about giving them the praise they deserve?


How many Shonen have you actually read where the main character "dies" or is incognito for a large amount of time? Thought so.



Please tell me you are being sarcastic...



Can't answer? Coo'


I had a feel you weren't, but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. First of all, "where the main character 'dies' or is incognito for a large amount of time," does NOT describe AoT. He only was gone for a couple of episodes, and even then it was only used a cliff-hanger/eye-catcher, and was never really used as an element to advance the story. (In case you don't get what I mean, which you're probably wont from what I have seen from you, let me explain: there is a story [forgot the name] where the mc dies dies halfway through the story; the rest of the story is relating what happens after, and how this persons affects the world and the characters; in this story, the lack of the character's presence is being used extensively to advance the story)

In any case, I don't see how you comment has anything to do with my original comment? It still doesn't change the fact that AoT is pretty much using a shounen battle manga philosophy of writing.



Eren's "death" and subsequent rebirth wasn't used to advance the story in a big way? Again, not sure if serious.

And if it was using a 100% shonen battle manga philosophy, so many characters wouldn't be dying. Eren wouldn't have lost to so many obstacles in the series and the entire conflict against the Titans wouldn't seem so one-sided.

I'll admit, it does borrow a lot of shonen-esque elements (which isn't bad either). But just because it's labeled as a "shonen" doesn't mean that it's 100% like the genre it is under. In fact, AoT is more like low-level Seinen than Shonen, personally.



You put it perfectly. Eren's "death" didn't advance the series in any shape or way. (Him gaining his titan powers are separate from his "death" from a writing construction standpoint)

Also, what I mean by shounen battle manga philosophy:

1. Have the main cast face an enemy that is insanely op compared to them (after barely defeating a new enemy, it is always revealed that this new enemy is just the weakest of his group, and that the others are 10x stronger)

2. SHOUT FOR THE SAKE OF SHOUTING

3. Add as much of useless lines and scenes. While a major rule of writing is only to include what is absolutely necessary for the story, here toy should break that rule and pad your story as much as possible

4. Give your character some op power to fight his enemies, but make it difficult to control; this will allow you to pad your story with a a bunch of drama about the "uncertainty" of the power, while making sure it always works out in the end

5. Add as much drama and suspense as possible. It doesn't matter if it makes your story shallow, this is a MUST. I cannot stress how vitally important this is, as this is the very essence of a popular shonen series!

----

On a side note, as the series is coming to a close soon, I have decided to start examining the "Writer's spirit." What I mean by this is that I examining the story, the various elements, the charters, how the story was constructed, I try to read the soul that the writer breaths into his story (even the worst of stories can have a strong "soul").

While I haven't finished yet (it involves a LOT of thinking), I have discovered something interesting. I think the writer was honestly trying to construct a really well made world. You can really see the amount of detail given to the initial story. But probably due to lack of skill, the writer reverted to the shallow shounen philosophy when it came to writing the meat of the story. In the end, AoT might have been a really great epic, something along the lines of Fate/Zero, but something that inevitably feel into mediocrity due to the writer's lack of skill.
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Posted 9/21/13 , edited 9/21/13

vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:



Ok, let me explain it REAL slowly for you then: It is NOT!!! the quantity of emotion I am complaining about, it is the QUALITY!!! And in AoT, the quality sucks. Like I said earlier, any half-baked fanfic writer could match AoT's quality of emotion.




And I'm asking you again fam, how exactly does AoT not have quality emotion? Are the emotions that the characters are showing not realistic enough or evoke enough realism? Isn't this how a normal group of ordinary people would react to the forces in the series given the circumstances? Wow. Until you come with something that makes reasonable sense, I'm gonna have to drop this convo


Good find some quality written movies/series/books/ect. Examine them, understand what a well written story looks like, and then come back to me. I have been doing this for awhile now, critically examining every aspect of a story, trying to understand what makes it "tick." (I am like the guy who disassembles a mechanical object to see how it works; except I do it with abstract ideas instead; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP). That is my passion in life, and that is why anime (which always finds some unique way to break with the convention and give me a whole unique structure to examine; that is why I love different series so much; so much fun)
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So, Attack on Titan is a good show, but I generally don't like watching ongoing anime since I have to wait a week to watch a new episode. That makes me forget important moments of a show that happened on previous episodes. Also, I don't know what Jifaru meant by writing TTGL. I know that AOT means Attack on Titan because that is the subject of this topic. Anyway, try to spell out the whole title the first time and initial afterwards. By the way, I like what Jifaru said even though I do not agree with hims. Good luck guys and gals. Do your best!
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Posted 9/21/13 , edited 9/21/13

Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:



Ok, let me explain it REAL slowly for you then: It is NOT!!! the quantity of emotion I am complaining about, it is the QUALITY!!! And in AoT, the quality sucks. Like I said earlier, any half-baked fanfic writer could match AoT's quality of emotion.




And I'm asking you again fam, how exactly does AoT not have quality emotion? Are the emotions that the characters are showing not realistic enough or evoke enough realism? Isn't this how a normal group of ordinary people would react to the forces in the series given the circumstances? Wow. Until you come with something that makes reasonable sense, I'm gonna have to drop this convo


Good find some quality written movies/series/books/ect. Examine them, understand what a well written story looks like, and then come back to me. I have been doing this for awhile now, critically examining every aspect of a story, trying to understand what makes it "tick." (I am like the guy who disassembles a mechanical object to see how it works; except I do it with abstract ideas instead; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP)


yea, you pretty much understood exactly what I was saying about the characters. they're all very one-sided. they only appear to have one emotion, because that's exactly what they show. problem is, for 99% of the characters, it appears to be fear.

also, if you really like to deconstruct writing, I should message you about my own works sometime. would love to hear what someone like you would have to say about them. (need to actually put more effort into actually writing down my ideas, though.)
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Bb3gyXaPa wrote:



So, Attack on Titan is a good show, but I generally don't like watching ongoing anime since I have to wait a week to watch a new episode. That makes me forget important moments of a show that happened on previous episodes. Also, I don't know what Jifaru meant by writing TTGL. I know that AOT means Attack on Titan because that is the subject of this topic. Anyway, try to spell out the whole title the first time and initial afterwards. By the way, I like what Jifaru said even though I do not agree with hims. Good luck guys and gals. Do your best!


TTGL is Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
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Posted 9/21/13

Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:

SHUT UP ALREADY! It's a mediocre show at best with shounen battle manga-type writing and shallow characters (I mean, even the author doesn't care a **** for his characters, except the ones that are absolutely necessary for an easily-written plot).

There are much, MUCH better series running this season, so how about giving them the praise they deserve?


How many Shonen have you actually read where the main character "dies" or is incognito for a large amount of time? Thought so.



Please tell me you are being sarcastic...



Can't answer? Coo'


I had a feel you weren't, but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. First of all, "where the main character 'dies' or is incognito for a large amount of time," does NOT describe AoT. He only was gone for a couple of episodes, and even then it was only used a cliff-hanger/eye-catcher, and was never really used as an element to advance the story. (In case you don't get what I mean, which you're probably wont from what I have seen from you, let me explain: there is a story [forgot the name] where the mc dies dies halfway through the story; the rest of the story is relating what happens after, and how this persons affects the world and the characters; in this story, the lack of the character's presence is being used extensively to advance the story)

In any case, I don't see how you comment has anything to do with my original comment? It still doesn't change the fact that AoT is pretty much using a shounen battle manga philosophy of writing.



Eren's "death" and subsequent rebirth wasn't used to advance the story in a big way? Again, not sure if serious.

And if it was using a 100% shonen battle manga philosophy, so many characters wouldn't be dying. Eren wouldn't have lost to so many obstacles in the series and the entire conflict against the Titans wouldn't seem so one-sided.

I'll admit, it does borrow a lot of shonen-esque elements (which isn't bad either). But just because it's labeled as a "shonen" doesn't mean that it's 100% like the genre it is under. In fact, AoT is more like low-level Seinen than Shonen, personally.



You put it perfectly. Eren's "death" didn't advance the series in any shape or way. (Him gaining his titan powers are separate from his "death" from a writing construction standpoint)

Also, what I mean by shounen battle manga philosophy:

1. Have the main cast face an enemy that is insanely op compared to them (after barely defeating a new enemy, it is always revealed that this new enemy is just the weakest of his group, and that the others are 10x stronger)

2. SHOUT FOR THE SAKE OF SHOUTING

3. Add as much of useless lines and scenes. While a major rule of writing is only to include what is absolutely necessary for the story, here toy should break that rule and pad your story as much as possible

4. Give your character some op power to fight his enemies, but make it difficult to control; this will allow you to pad your story with a a bunch of drama about the "uncertainty" of the power, while making sure it always works out in the end

5. Add as much drama and suspense as possible. It doesn't matter if it makes your story shallow, this is a MUST. I cannot stress how vitally important this is, as this is the very essence of a popular shonen series!

----

On a side note, as the series is coming to a close soon, I have decided to start examining the "Writer's spirit." What I mean by this is that I examining the story, the various elements, the charters, how the story was constructed, I try to read the soul that the writer breaths into his story (even the worst of stories can have a strong "soul").

While I haven't finished yet (it involves a LOT of thinking), I have discovered something interesting. I think the writer was honestly trying to construct a really well made world. You can really see the amount of detail given to the initial story. But probably due to lack of skill, the writer reverted to the shallow shounen philosophy when it came to writing the meat of the story. In the end, AoT might have been a really great epic, something along the lines of Fate/Zero, but something that inevitably feel into mediocrity due to the writer's lack of skill.


>Pretty sure Eren getting eaten by the Titan, therefore awakening his Titan powers is advancing the series dude. They're interconnected; you can't have one without mentioning the other.

>Your shonen points:
1. This is a point in a lot of manga, not only shonen, but seinen, shojo, slice of life etc. It's all about the characters meeting new obstacles and being able to overcome said obstacles. Don't really see how this is a flaw...at all...

2. I would understand this point if not for the fact that AoT's story calls for it on many occasions, whether rallying the troops or a character giving himself the courage to go on in the midst of all the adversity.

3. And your points fail again. Most of the lines in the series either serve to give us background on the character's, highlight some of the current plot points, or tell us of future plot points to come. Unless you can actually find evidence of this (you've really struggled in this department bruh), then fail. Again.

4. Again, how is this point exactly bad? If Eren knew how to control his powers, even more haters and detractors would arrive and claim that "Eren is OP" and other nonsense like that. It's a no win situation apparently, so why not go with the path that'll dish out the least amount of damage (if the damage is even existant in the first damned place).

5. Since when does including drama and suspense in a series = flaw? Especially when one of the genres of the series is "Drama". Cmon son.

Thanks for proving that, again, most AoT haters and their arguments have no pounds, kilos, weight whatsoever.

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Posted 9/21/13

Bb3gyXaPa wrote:



So, Attack on Titan is a good show, but I generally don't like watching ongoing anime since I have to wait a week to watch a new episode. That makes me forget important moments of a show that happened on previous episodes. Also, I don't know what Jifaru meant by writing TTGL. I know that AOT means Attack on Titan because that is the subject of this topic. Anyway, try to spell out the whole title the first time and initial afterwards. By the way, I like what Jifaru said even though I do not agree with hims. Good luck guys and gals. Do your best!


Well the series has a recap episode, so you should be straight, whenever you start to watch the show.
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Posted 9/21/13 , edited 9/21/13

Vin_Howard wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:



Ok, let me explain it REAL slowly for you then: It is NOT!!! the quantity of emotion I am complaining about, it is the QUALITY!!! And in AoT, the quality sucks. Like I said earlier, any half-baked fanfic writer could match AoT's quality of emotion.




And I'm asking you again fam, how exactly does AoT not have quality emotion? Are the emotions that the characters are showing not realistic enough or evoke enough realism? Isn't this how a normal group of ordinary people would react to the forces in the series given the circumstances? Wow. Until you come with something that makes reasonable sense, I'm gonna have to drop this convo


Good find some quality written movies/series/books/ect. Examine them, understand what a well written story looks like, and then come back to me. I have been doing this for awhile now, critically examining every aspect of a story, trying to understand what makes it "tick." (I am like the guy who disassembles a mechanical object to see how it works; except I do it with abstract ideas instead; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP). That is my passion in life, and that is why anime (which always finds some unique way to break with the convention and give me a whole unique structure to examine; that is why I love different series so much; so much fun)



lol it seems like this is all pointless because A) you can't convey ANY points that don't leave gaping holes in them. You believe your opinion = fact and that's just not the case.

It's hilarious, either way. Have a nice day, fam! (Mean this in the least sarcastic way possible).
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Posted 9/21/13 , edited 9/21/13

vglan-funman wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:



You put it perfectly. Eren's "death" didn't advance the series in any shape or way. (Him gaining his titan powers are separate from his "death" from a writing construction standpoint)

Also, what I mean by shounen battle manga philosophy:

1. Have the main cast face an enemy that is insanely op compared to them (after barely defeating a new enemy, it is always revealed that this new enemy is just the weakest of his group, and that the others are 10x stronger)

2. SHOUT FOR THE SAKE OF SHOUTING

3. Add as much of useless lines and scenes. While a major rule of writing is only to include what is absolutely necessary for the story, here toy should break that rule and pad your story as much as possible

4. Give your character some op power to fight his enemies, but make it difficult to control; this will allow you to pad your story with a a bunch of drama about the "uncertainty" of the power, while making sure it always works out in the end

5. Add as much drama and suspense as possible. It doesn't matter if it makes your story shallow, this is a MUST. I cannot stress how vitally important this is, as this is the very essence of a popular shonen series!

----

On a side note, as the series is coming to a close soon, I have decided to start examining the "Writer's spirit." What I mean by this is that I examining the story, the various elements, the charters, how the story was constructed, I try to read the soul that the writer breaths into his story (even the worst of stories can have a strong "soul").

While I haven't finished yet (it involves a LOT of thinking), I have discovered something interesting. I think the writer was honestly trying to construct a really well made world. You can really see the amount of detail given to the initial story. But probably due to lack of skill, the writer reverted to the shallow shounen philosophy when it came to writing the meat of the story. In the end, AoT might have been a really great epic, something along the lines of Fate/Zero, but something that inevitably feel into mediocrity due to the writer's lack of skill.


>Pretty sure Eren getting eaten by the Titan, therefore awakening his Titan powers is advancing the series dude. They're interconnected; you can't have one without mentioning the other.

>Your shonen points:
1. This is a point in a lot of manga, not only shonen, but seinen, shojo, slice of life etc. It's all about the characters meeting new obstacles and being able to overcome said obstacles. Don't really see how this is a flaw...at all...

2. I would understand this point if not for the fact that AoT's story calls for it on many occasions, whether rallying the troops or a character giving himself the courage to go on in the midst of all the adversity.

3. And your points fail again. Most of the lines in the series either serve to give us background on the character's, highlight some of the current plot points, or tell us of future plot points to come. Unless you can actually find evidence of this (you've really struggled in this department bruh), then fail. Again.

4. Again, how is this point exactly bad? If Eren knew how to control his powers, even more haters and detractors would arrive and claim that "Eren is OP" and other nonsense like that. It's a no win situation apparently, so why not go with the path that'll dish out the least amount of damage (if the damage is even existent in the first damned place).

5. Since when does including drama and suspense in a series = flaw? Especially when one of the genres of the series is "Drama". Cmon son.

Thanks for proving that, again, most AoT haters and their arguments have no pounds, kilos, weight whatsoever.



1. I mean op super villain that the heroes have no way of defeating, but still always beat in the end, usually with surprising ease (oh look, the best of the best just got whipped out by the Titans; we have no way of winning; few episodes later: yay, we retook the town, we only lost some faceless number that was just thrown out there with no real consideration; oh look, that female titan just murder the VERY VERY best like it was the easiest thing; next episode: look at the rookie really messing with that same female Titan like it was the easiest thing in the world, and lets watch as the other guy solo r*pes her with moves impossible in reality)

2. Well I guess I will give you this point. But I still feel it is being used more than justifiable.

3. As a matter of fact: https://plus.google.com/113581974701996236770/posts/KJttaZ3EMSK

4. You fail to see my point. I am saying the power itself is a shounen battle manga tactic.

5. "Drama is life with the dull bits cut out" - Alfred Hitchcock. There is both good drama and bad drama. Good drama is used to create a deep, riveting, relatable story. Bad drama, the type I am talking about, is used only for the sake of engaging the audience's attention. It is shallow, and serves no benefit except for attracting a casual crowd that either doesn't care or doesn't know what a good story is, aka it is great for making a cash cow but at the same time undermines the quality of the writing.

PS, can you PLEASE actually think about what I am typing instead of just skimming over it and then thinking of what you think is a smart comeback. Yes, if we were writing an outline of the plot of AoT, Eren's death and him gaining his power have a lot to do with each other. But I am *NOT* talking about a plot outline, I am talking about the various elements of the story and how they influence the meat of the story. If you cannot comprehend this simple difference, then it will be impossible for me to show what is wrong with AoT in the same way that it would be impossible to show that 2+ does not equal 3 to someone who doesn't understand matchamatics.
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vglan-funman wrote:
In this day and age, it's pretty foolish to decide whether you'll continue a series based on the first episode alone. Most people will watch 3-5 episodes before deciding whether a series has captured their attention or whether they need to drop it.


If you have to watch more than 1 episode to get it to even get minimal attention for an anime has it not failed? You've basically said "watch more, it gets better" without actually saying so. You don't present an argument for what I said before. If episode 1 isn't enough to get minimal attention from me what reason do I have to tune in episode 2?

Rather than address this you decide to call me a fool. I find using my time to watch an anime's first episode to decide if any of it drew my attention a valid point. Or are you saying that the anime is terrible until episode 3? In which case my previous statement of episode 1 not getting any of my attention is validated by you.
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ArtyD42 wrote:


vglan-funman wrote:
In this day and age, it's pretty foolish to decide whether you'll continue a series based on the first episode alone. Most people will watch 3-5 episodes before deciding whether a series has captured their attention or whether they need to drop it.


If you have to watch more than 1 episode to get it to even get minimal attention for an anime has it not failed? You've basically said "watch more, it gets better" without actually saying so. You don't present an argument for what I said before. If episode 1 isn't enough to get minimal attention from me what reason do I have to tune in episode 2?

Rather than address this you decide to call me a fool. I find using my time to watch an anime's first episode to decide if any of it drew my attention a valid point. Or are you saying that the anime is terrible until episode 3? In which case my previous statement of episode 1 not getting any of my attention is validated by you.


Personally, and I am saying this independent of any feeling of AoT (to tell you the truth, you aren't missing anything), I advocate a "Rule of three" when watching anime. What I mean by this is that you generally watch three episodes. The idea is that a lot of animes (unlike western live-action series, which are about attracting views and the $$$) don't go for flashy intros, or otherwise have a complex story that causes a bit of leg work, and thus can't be properly expressed in just 24mins.

I should also say that this is not a set rule, as I have dropped some series after the first episode, and with other, I have found it took a significantly larger amount of episodes to reach it's full potential (The Eccentric Family is a good example of this; it didn't really interest me early in the series, but with these last few episodes, it has shot up to my #1 of the season so far)
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Vin_Howard wrote:Personally, and I am saying this independent of any feeling of AoT (to tell you the truth, you aren't missing anything), I advocate a "Rule of three" when watching anime. What I mean by this is that you generally watch three episodes. The idea is that a lot of animes (unlike western live-action series, which are about attracting views and the $$$) don't go for flashy intros, or otherwise have a complex story that causes a bit of leg work, and thus can't be properly expressed in just 24mins.

I should also say that this is not a set rule, as I have dropped some series after the first episode, and with other, I have found it took a significantly larger amount of episodes to reach it's full potential (The Eccentric Family is a good example of this; it didn't really interest me early in the series, but with these last few episodes, it has shot up to my #1 of the season so far)


I don't disagree with most people using the rule of 3. I know the rule, I accept the rule, but when the start of something annoys me too much it's something I turn off and don't care about in the future. I started with a neutral on the first viewing of this. It went to a negative reaction from me in the first 10 minutes. From there it just kept on rolling downhill. I was glad when I reached the ending. This level of back story SHOULD NOT BE THE INTRO for this. It is anyways. When a show makes me this bored this fast the problem is not does the show actually get better or not but it's already thrown my interest away.

I really don't want to waste time on an anime that doesn't interest me. Fame and popularity of an anime doesn't matter if to the viewer it is DULL. The entire setup falls flat on it's face in this manner. So make this argument if you can.

When does the show start to get good?

If you are unable to say within the first 3 episodes then the rule of 3 doesn't matter either. For me it is already poor before episode 2. I haven't even bothered to try to watch episode 2 or 3 due to how poor it was presented. This would be equal to presenting Dragonball at the point in time where Bulma started searching for the dragonballs and telling the story from her start instead of Goku's. That would have killed the series going that route. That's where this is at now to me.
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ArtyD42 wrote:


Vin_Howard wrote:Personally, and I am saying this independent of any feeling of AoT (to tell you the truth, you aren't missing anything), I advocate a "Rule of three" when watching anime. What I mean by this is that you generally watch three episodes. The idea is that a lot of animes (unlike western live-action series, which are about attracting views and the $$$) don't go for flashy intros, or otherwise have a complex story that causes a bit of leg work, and thus can't be properly expressed in just 24mins.

I should also say that this is not a set rule, as I have dropped some series after the first episode, and with other, I have found it took a significantly larger amount of episodes to reach it's full potential (The Eccentric Family is a good example of this; it didn't really interest me early in the series, but with these last few episodes, it has shot up to my #1 of the season so far)


I don't disagree with most people using the rule of 3. I know the rule, I accept the rule, but when the start of something annoys me too much it's something I turn off and don't care about in the future. I started with a neutral on the first viewing of this. It went to a negative reaction from me in the first 10 minutes. From there it just kept on rolling downhill. I was glad when I reached the ending. This level of back story SHOULD NOT BE THE INTRO for this. It is anyways. When a show makes me this bored this fast the problem is not does the show actually get better or not but it's already thrown my interest away.

I really don't want to waste time on an anime that doesn't interest me. Fame and popularity of an anime doesn't matter if to the viewer it is DULL. The entire setup falls flat on it's face in this manner. So make this argument if you can.

When does the show start to get good?

If you are unable to say within the first 3 episodes then the rule of 3 doesn't matter either. For me it is already poor before episode 2. I haven't even bothered to try to watch episode 2 or 3 due to how poor it was presented. This would be equal to presenting Dragonball at the point in time where Bulma started searching for the dragonballs and telling the story from her start instead of Goku's. That would have killed the series going that route. That's where this is at now to me.


Ahh well, if a series severely bothers you at the beginning, then you shouldn't feel back for dropping it. I do it myself quite a few times. I have even quit a few shows mid first episode (looking at you "Lucky Star"). I guess in the end, the "rull of three," to take a line from a certain movie about pirates, "It's more of a guideline"
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One of my few favorite top animes right now
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I've watched half of the episodes and think its ok but have really slowed down since then due to people hyping the show more than it deserves. This is definetly not the best anime there is as so many people have been claiming. I will eventually finish the rest of the episodes eventually but over hyping really turns me off.
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