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Post Reply "Anime is not getting worse - we simply lack perspective"
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33 / M / Planet Sanno
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Posted 9/22/13
I am of the opinion that anime is anime, and I certainly like things that I know many fans believe are complete shite, but current trends in the subculture (e.g. lolicon – I don't dig it, folks) make me reluctant to mention it to anybody as one of my hobbies, lest they make unfortunate assumptions.
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24 / F / NYC
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Posted 9/22/13
Everyone likes different things, we just need to accept that. The article does make a good point to say that because Anime is more readily available today we do not have series that are referred to as "masterpieces" because they don't have the long classic cult following. Some things are cheesy and generic yeah, but that does not mean that other great anime is not being made. People need to calm down. Anime is not going to die out anytime soon.
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49 / M / In
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Posted 9/22/13

AnimeKami wrote:

Nope, I watch a lot of different anime. I have only truly hated one anime.


5 bucks says it's School Days

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23 / M / This Dying World
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Posted 9/22/13

uncletim wrote:


AnimeKami wrote:

Nope, I watch a lot of different anime. I have only truly hated one anime.


5 bucks says it's School Days



no i like school days
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49 / M / In
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Posted 9/22/13

AnimeKami wrote:


uncletim wrote:


AnimeKami wrote:

Nope, I watch a lot of different anime. I have only truly hated one anime.


5 bucks says it's School Days



no i like school days

really? well I guess to each their own

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28 / M / Dallas, TX
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13


:chihayafistbump:


GayAsianBoy wrote:

Using the same old formula and high school setting are what make anime become bad for anime veterans. For new anime viewers, obviously they wouldn't notice the formula or think that high school setting is an overused setting since they're new to anime, but for someone who is an anime veteran, it gets old fast.

It isn't about perspective, it's about the directors or storyteller not willing to experiment with the way they tell stories.


You essentially just defined "perspective" and still argue that it's not. Actually, Mike Toole just posted an article about school anime over on ANN: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-mike-toole-show/2013-09-22

I haven't quite read the article yet, but I feel like this is part of a larger problem in our culture: the idea some people today, particularly those from Generation Y, that feel they are a main character within a story, and that their thoughts, opinions, and actions matter more than the people around them. The fact that anime is such a niche community, which already contains some very vocal fans, magnifies an issue that is also present in other fandoms, like comic books and movies.


TrueGoober wrote:

I do feel bad for the seinen fanboys currently. Hardly any seinen comes out these days. Was that not the case years ago when Cowboy Bebop and GitS came out?


Everything outside of shounen, and to a lesser extent shoujo, has always been poorly represented. Josei didn't start getting much attention until the noitaminA block launched a number of years back, but even that is leaning a bit more towards mainstream in the last couple seasons.
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24 / M / CA
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Posted 9/22/13
It would be nice if more people would understand that their opinion is not the same as fact, even if that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
The way I see it, what people experience first tends to heavily influence both their personal preferences and their beliefs about what is good and bad, separate from their personal preferences. To me, there are too many instances of someone not realizing that what he/she believes is good is not what many others believe is good. A fair number of anime veterans claim that a lot of newer anime are bad, while most older anime are good. But I can imagine people who are newer to anime claiming the exact opposite.

I don't think it's limited to just old vs. new, either. I think that each of us has certain concepts/techniques that we like to see in anime, and some of us believe that any anime, old or new, absolutely must employ those concepts/techniques in order to be good. But if each of us has different concepts/techniques we like to see, then each of us has different standards for what makes an anime good. Hence, two people could watch the same anime, yet one of them could say its good and the other could say its bad. Each person could try explaining what it is about the anime that makes it good or bad, but what if neither one can convince the other that he/she is right? What if more people watched the anime and the same thing happened? At that point, I believe people need to accept that others can disagree with them without necessarily being right or wrong.

Realistically, I don't see that happening, but I, for one, would be happy if it did happen.
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25 / M / Sydney, Australia
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Posted 9/22/13

eyeofpain wrote:

GayAsianBoy wrote:

I disagree with the article and the original post.


Using the same old formula and high school setting are what make anime become bad for anime veterans. For new anime viewers, obviously they wouldn't notice the formula or think that high school setting is an overused setting since they're new to anime, but for someone who is an anime veteran, it gets old fast.

It isn't about perspective, it's about the directors or storyteller not willing to experiment with the way they tell stories.


You essentially just defined "perspective" and still argue that it's not.

I haven't quite read the article yet, but I feel like this is part of a larger problem in our culture: the idea some people today, particularly those from Generation Y, that feel they are a main character within a story, and that their thoughts, opinions, and actions matter more than the people around them. The fact that anime is such a niche community, which already contains some very vocal fans, magnifies an issue that is also present in other fandoms, like comic books and movies.



You should read the original article then before commenting on my comment.


And I never said that wasn't a perspective. That line was referring to the original article, "anime watchers lack a perspective".
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20 / M / Free World Jail
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Posted 9/22/13
Not sure if its School Days or Makoto they hate...hmmm
Twist on magical girls= Praise
Twist on moe= Praise
Twist on harem= Bash
Twist on romance (Incest)= Bash

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24 / M / アビス
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13
I love all anime, ill give qnything a chqnce nowadays. I used to hate naruto and dropped it at ep 100 or so. I found a list that got rid of fillers and got naruto done. Now im up to like episode 275(roughly) of shippuden and cant turn away. I used to only love elite anime but now I love it all. Tldr give any anime a chance, just because its boring at first doesn't mean its total shit.
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28 / M / Dallas, TX
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Posted 9/22/13

GayAsianBoy wrote:

You should read the original article then before commenting on my comment.


I just did, and I don't think it would have changed my post. The article is more about nostalgia glasses than the opening post lead me to believe, though.
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13
I remember when Mad Magazine celebrated its 50th anniversary or some such, they published a timeline of their history. One of the items: "Mad publishes its second issue; receives first letter complaining 'just not as funny anymore.'"

Go watch a music video of anything at least ten years old on YouTube. Top comment will be: "now this is music, not that crap they play today!" I've seen people say this on videos for songs thirty years ago the world was complaining were "destroying music."

Bottom line: once someone starts complaining about "these kids today don't know how to make a good anime," you can probably just chuckle to yourself and think, "sucks to get old, doesn't it." Alternately, if you are the one complaining, congratulations--you're getting old.
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25 / M / Sydney, Australia
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Posted 9/22/13

eyeofpain wrote:


GayAsianBoy wrote:

You should read the original article then before commenting on my comment.


I just did, and I don't think it would have changed my post. The article is more about nostalgia glasses than the opening post lead me to believe, though.


well your 1st comment on my comment was just false since i never made any assertion about something not being a perspective.

my point in my 1st comment was about how it's not about perspective or lack thereof but because of lack of originality in new animes.


so i still don't understand why you commented on my comment in the first place to say something that I've never said.
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29 / M / Bellingham WA, USA
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13
Meh. I don't get the old vs new mentality. I've been watching anime as long as I can remember, and it just seems to be getting better and better to me as the years go by. I'm pretty excited to see what the future will bring.
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25 / M / Under fire
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13

iblessall wrote:

Since the original post you quote is a essentially paraphrased version of a comment that I got my head bit off over earlier in the week, allow me to provide a counter perspective. Saying "it's not a masterpiece," comes as a response the the hero-worship that AoT gets (in the exact similar vein as what happened with SAO). As a comment moderating from one extreme, I don't see any problem with saying that. And as long as there are reasons given backing that up, it's not even a cop-out.

Ultimately, I think it depends on whether or not you think there can be absolutes at all in making critical judgements of artistic works. Is there art that is intrinsically good? Is there art that is intrinsically bad? If you don't believe in artistic absolutes (which you have to differentiate from preferences), then you must assume everyone is giving opinions. And, yes, from that POV, there is no such thing as a masterpiece.

I personally do believe in artistic absolutes, but I'd certainly hesitate to say that anime is declining in quality. If you are just watching what is produced (i.e. the current season), you are just taking what the industry gives you. If you are actively searching out shows to watch, attempting to watch the best stuff you can, you are going to have a much different perspective on the quality of anime as an entire medium. If you apply absolutes to those two situations then yeah, you are going to end up with the perspective that the quality of anime is steadily declining. (I think that's essentially the point the author of the article was trying to make).

A lot of what I see is people trying to apply absolutist judgments as personal perceptions and vice versa. People unconsciously mix up their definitions, and that's where we all get stuck in the mud.


First, my apologies. The OP does indeed reflect a very similar interaction that we exchanged earlier in the week. However, as best as I can, I would like to claim that it was not a primary thought running through my mind when I made this post (though I can't say whether or not it might have been sub-consciously present). The article itself uses the word "masterpiece" so I was more gleaning my words off of that, and I would deem it a mere coincidence that the wording mirrored our impasse.

For one thing, I do believe that there can be such thing as a "bad" anime. Words like "bad" and "good" being highly subjective and interpretive though...it's difficult to align those thoughts with other people, so I refuse to let my definition of bad encompass a factual denomination. If we wanted to pick a definition that works solidly as a foundation for defining bad/good, we could measure each show by its success. This would make Sword Art Online an incredibly good anime. The fact it experienced such success would be an indicator to its appeal, would it not? The same goes for all those Shounen shows like Fairy Tale, OP, and the like (which I personally haaaate).

Many people are not happy with this unit of measurement though, simply because it conflicts with their own predetermined opinions. They bring up things like the 'Mcdonalds argument' (just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good etc etc).

This is why, today, if someone were ever to ask me if I liked OP, my answer would be "I don't like it, I'm not a fan of the art direction and I dislike long running shows". I would spare them the attempt of convincing them that what they are watching is a waste of time, because it isn't to them, so who am I to tell them that? Here's my advice for folks he often find themselves in the camp of folks who tend to dislike "popular" shows like Shingeki or SAO...respect the show for its accomplishment and success, relay why it's out of your preference, and leave it at that. Uselessly hating on it and a fueling a giant rocket full of reasons why you think it sucks gets you nowhere with someone who likes it, ever.

Let's say we're to define a shows quality by attempting to use rational thought to compare it to other shows that did things better, in an attempt to absolutely prove that X show is empirically bad/good. At this point we're attempting to weigh our opinions on how a certain show did something, against our opinions of how other shows did that same thing, and then face-off that rationale against others opinions of how a show did something in comparison to how other shows did that same thing...and you can very plainly see how we are so far in to opinion-ception that a sensible conclusion to this argument would likely be deemed impossible among the rubble.

At the end of the day, there are people out there who like that constant churning out of typical, high school or harem type setups. Sometimes it's nice for some people to simply see the same story with different characters and done in even a slightly different way. I think that overall, whether a show achieved its bottom line is really the only true and fair way we can determine whether a show was inherently good or not. In art, you simply aim to put your creativity on a canvas, and that art is bought by people who share in your love for the images that you create. The more people that your art speaks to, the more money you make as an artist.

The same can be said of anime...the more people who enjoy the show...the more people that will tune in to watch it every week, and inevitably buy the blurays/merchandise/manga/whatever else there is. We call art that draws top dollar "good" art, so why can't we call anime that sells well "good" anime? There's bound to be someone who likes an anime that didn't sell well, but that certainly doesn't inherently make it a bad show either.

Basically, if the show sold well, it's probably a good show (or has some crazy mind control scheme in it to make people buy its' stuff), if it didn't, then it probably only appealed to a niche audience.

If you look at things like that, then no anime is really bad. There's just anime and great anime.
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