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"Anime is not getting worse - we simply lack perspective"
Posted 9/22/13
I think SAO has this very false equivalency problem to it.

One side says it's the best anime ever, one side says it's the worst piece of self-indulgent garbage ever, that means both must cancel out and it turns into a good show right? Nope, judgement of an anime must go beyond the opinions of the audience and I already knew this was one of the biggest loads of crap before I knew how popular it would get. It's a freakin harem anime that tries to pawn itself as an action anime, but swinging a bunch of swords around isn't maturity, it's just plain childish. I love Oreimo, because they don't need weapons to solve their problems, just good old fashioned, dialogue and character.
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Posted 9/22/13



Madoka Magica: I reluctantly started the series, thinking 'god, this is just a loli fest piece of crap. Then we get to the first shocker moment a couple episodes into it. From then on, it's a steam train of mind fucking and plot twists that you probably did not see coming. The character made out to be a complete hard ass pain in the ass turns out to be completely justified in their bitchyness, and we get to start thinking back on how this transformation takes place. They fill the first part of the series with a ton of action and some drama, only to really let the viewer know exactly what is going on at the end. It is paced as if you were in Madoka's position of knowledge so that you are able to appreciate her point of view to the fullest extent possible, before being treated to a much more exact point of view of the alternative main character of the series. It is extremely well paced, and the story is told rather well. For a series I went into regretting the thought of watching it, it sure did deliver.

Bakemonogatari: I like the word play in this show. I don't speak japanese, but the verbal jousting is easy to listen to. Well choreographed, if that makes any sense. Beyond that, the way that they present the world, and how the characters interact with each other is enjoyable to watch. With characters that are honest with themselves, but deceitful to others, and the way that they tend to present so many sides of the story, and with no true evil overall, it's very interesting. The aspect that all the aparitions tend to be a part of a person that they wanted to be rid of is a great concept to work with, and overall, the unique style of the animation delivers on what would normally be a book on tape in a very pleasing manner. They keep you busy, whether it's with screens with text flashing for further unnecessary details, to some very well animated action seens.

Sunday without God: I'm not sure what to think about this anime yet, but I like it. If you are able to get on board emotionally with Ai, it becomes very easy to follow through with her emotions. If you let it, you get sucked into her perspective of the world. You get attached to the same things she does, and when they are removed, you are torn just as much. Once you start getting into the individual people that she interacts with, it becomes intellectually interesting, as you think about what these people wished for, and why. It becomes less about the state of the world, but the cause of that state, and what can be done to fix the issues. This series appeals to me because the issues aren't ones that can be solved with brute force, but are emotional problems given very physical properties.

One other thing to note, the music scores with each of these series are very well mixed and matched, and lend themselves well to the emotions that they intended to deliver. This is something that has improved over the last 20-30 years as technology gives the world's musicians more ability to manipulate sounds into powerful music. I don't remember any particular part of madoka's music in particular, but bakemonogatari's intro's and Sunday without God's end are both excellent with how the music ties into the animation.

I guess these three in particular appealed to me because I could imagine, if a real person were put into these circumstances, they would have similar reactions to what was portrayed. but that these situations are so extreme, I've never really thought them through before.

Other shows I wish would get more attention: (sorry I don't know the japanese phonetic names)

(Beast Player) Erin
The Eccentric Family
My Little Monster
Monster
Durarara
Ano Natsu de Matteru

Just a few that I've not only watched, but gone back and rewatched and don't often see anyone really discussing them. This is probably because most of them don't have open endings. In fact, I'm a real sucker for a happy ending.

xxJing 
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Posted 9/22/13

zipzo wrote:


Sword Art Online, as the popular primary sponge of obnoxious hater rage these days, is pretty good. Is it an OMGMASTERPIECE? Uh...does it have to be? If any studio could create a masterpiece at the drop of a hat...then what would the significance of a "masterpiece" be, exactly?

Now if you disliked Sword Art Online for a valid list of reasons then that's a different subject altogether, the anime simply fell outside of your preference and nothing can really be done about that, but what exactly is the point of ever saying "It's not a masterpiece". I see people say this all the time about anime that people are talking about. I see people say it about Shingeki no Kyojin too.



No, SAO is a perfect example of a bad anime. If it was simply people who did not like that style of anime hating on it, that would be one thing. However, there are people like me, who want to like this anime. There is so much right with the anime, but the one thing that is wrong with it, is the writing. It is very, very, poorly written. It has a wonderful premise, great characters, the worlds are even fleshed out enough to be interesting, both SAO and ALO, so why does it suck? BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT. The writing reduces all these wonderful things into a very narrowly focused love story / harem anime. The show wastes 99% of its potential.

Everyone who hates on it, whether they like the whole MMO premise or not, is basically saying the same thing, that it is horribly written. Hopefully Log Horizon is well written enough to make people forget about SAO.
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13

eyeofpain wrote:

The Micheal Bay Transformer movies are some of the most popular films in recent memory, but aside from visual appeal, they are far from any measure of "good."


...and yet plenty of people would disagree with you. You stand responsible for calling each and every single one of them wrong, which wouldn't be accurate since you're in no place to say so.

To you and the other guy who gave a huge rant on SAO...you are both powerless to step outside the bounds of subjective opinion in both cases. You can't possibly make an objective opinion, since you've no objective predisposition to either. You saw it, and you didn't like it, which immediately disqualifies you from having an objective opinion.

The most important factor in forming an objective opinion is cultural standard. Cultural standard is at the root of what garners mass appeal. Objectively, SAO and Transformers were both successful and entertaining. You didn't like them...but that doesn't change anything. All it changes is that you, yourself, didn't like them.

It's funny you mentioned Oreimo as your winner, because I hated Oreimo...see where I'm going with this?
Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13

zipzo wrote:


eyeofpain wrote:

The Micheal Bay Transformer movies are some of the most popular films in recent memory, but aside from visual appeal, they are far from any measure of "good."


...and yet plenty of people would disagree with you. You stand responsible for calling each and every single one of them wrong, which wouldn't be accurate since you're in no place to say so.

To you and the other guy who gave a huge rant on SAO...you are both powerless to step outside the bounds of subjective opinion in both cases. You can't possibly make an objective opinion, since you've no objective predisposition to either. You saw it, and you didn't like it, which immediately disqualifies you from having an objective opinion.

The most important factor in forming an objective opinion is cultural standard. Cultural standard is at the root of what garners mass appeal. Objectively, SAO and Transformers were both successful and entertaining. You didn't like them...but that doesn't change anything. All it changes is that you, yourself, didn't like them.

It's funny you mentioned Oreimo as your winner, because I hated Oreimo...see where I'm going with this?


But it seems to me that what you are trying to say is that objectivity doesn't exist at all and everything is corroded with opinion, that may be true but I seem to remember explaining in EXTENSIVE detail why there is a difference between opinion and objectivity with my Naruto example, which you just happened to ignore and not address at all.

You have a philosophy that objectivity doesn't exist

I have a philosophy that people, to their best ability, can do their best to separate their personal feelings from their objective feelings.

That appears to be the argument.

Do you read movie reviews? Do you know how complex the music reviewing system is? Do you think the guys who review music are just some people with opinions? I used to think like that, I used to think that the people who give 5 stars or 1 star to music albums are just people, no different from you and me. But I realized that those people, and this includes movie reviewers are trained extensively with such complex thinking and analytic skills to separate and distinguish between personal opinion and objectivity.

Now, I've heard this argument too many times, you say Transformers is good due to it's popularity, well I'm sorry but that's untrue, the popularity of a show is very Independent from it's quality. People can watch and like shows because a friend recommended it to them, It's impossible for you to say that quality is perfectly aligned with popularity, there are so many factors that come into the process of the success of the show, and quality is pretty small in certain cases. Especially when it comes to Michael Bay and M Night Shamalan, and if you still stand by your defense of those two directors while trying to claim the same defense for Sword Art Online, then I think we're done here, but Sword Art Online is about as bad as Michael Bay and M Night. Shamalan, movies, so if you are going to defend all three of them with your opinion on opinions, then I can't say anything more.
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13


There is absolutely no way to objectively critique a work without a high functioning, emotionless artificial intelligence. An "objective opinion" is even more worthless, since an opinion is formed based on experiences one has gathered are used as a basis for that opinion, which can easily change with further experiences.

Both SAO and the Transformers movies feature poor characterization (Asuna turns into a doormat for her man, because, why? Love?), cliched dialogue (Not even gonna bother pulling a quote), and unoriginal plotlines (Merely combining story elements isn't adequate). I've never met someone who could say any combination of those is an hallmark of a "good" movie. I'm not saying either isn't entertaining, to someone else, but I still maintain that popularity doesn't not directly correlate to something being "objectively" good.

I feel like we've gotten a bit off-topic...
Posted 9/22/13
If anyone knows who the Nostalgia Critic is, I got my entire way of thinking from him. For example, he recently reviewed Bridge to Teribithia, that movie is a childhood favorite of mine, but he doesn't like it and he reviewed it. So am I supposed to judge him based off the criteria of whether he liked it or not? Actually, when it comes to opinions and objective reasoning, whether or not the nostalgia critic liked my movie or not is completely irrelevant, it's about whether or not his arguments for either liking it or disliking it are good objectively, that way, I will have no complaints whether or not he liked it or not.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, it's about how well you can explain and objectively explain it, and I seem to see more logical arguments coming out from the people who hate SAO as compared to people who like it because it's popular and they heard it from a recommendation
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13
Wow. Leave it to the Crunchyroll forums for a thread to get turned into a gigantic SAO rant fest The rest of the internet seems to have accepted it as a pretty favorably reviewed anime. But of course I'm sure all of those opinions are subjective and uninformed
Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13

Balzack wrote:

Wow. Leave it to the Crunchyroll forums for a thread to get turned into a gigantic SAO rant fest The rest of the internet seems to have accepted it as a pretty favorably reviewed anime. But of course I'm sure all of those opinions are subjective and uninformed ;)


No, the anime demographic has accepted it as a favorably reviewed anime, not the internet, because anime standards are so low in the first place. I guarantee that if you showed SAO to the Breaking Bad demographic or the House M.D. demographic, or the Metal Gear Solid demographic, 99% of them would call it shit. Hell, show it to the Twilight demographic, I bet even they would hate it
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Posted 9/22/13

drakedogma wrote:

If anyone knows who the Nostalgia Critic is, I got my entire way of thinking from him. For example, he recently reviewed Bridge to Teribithia, that movie is a childhood favorite of mine, but he doesn't like it and he reviewed it. So am I supposed to judge him based off the criteria of whether he liked it or not? Actually, when it comes to opinions and objective reasoning, whether or not the nostalgia critic liked my movie or not is completely irrelevant, it's about whether or not his arguments for either liking it or disliking it are good objectively, that way, I will have no complaints whether or not he liked it or not.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, it's about how well you can explain and objectively explain it, and I seem to see more logical arguments coming out from the people who hate SAO as compared to people who like it because it's popular and they heard it from a recommendation


I'm liking this guys way of thinking, and since he posted it a few seconds before I started trying to catch up on this thread page, i'm totally puting down a "I'm hear, reading what you said" quote post in.

I'm sure i can give some good logical arguments as to why SAO is good, far more on why it's bad, but I'm more than ready to defend the hell out of it because.


So um, give me a moment to read every post and give some thought on it, where I'm at in this argument is several topics behind at this point.
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Posted 9/22/13
I'll just say this: 90% of everything is crap. Anime is no exception. We only romanticize older anime because we only actually remember 10% of it. I don't really think there are right answers, but I certainly think there are wrong ones. And usually, time is the best critic. You see, I believe there is what the individual perceives as true, what society perceives as true, and what is actually true(they can be very different at times). Art of any form that is truly good or admirable can and will pass the test of time. "Classics" or whatever word one uses for them do not fade out with societal trends.
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Posted 9/22/13 , edited 9/22/13

xxJing wrote:

No, SAO is a perfect example of a bad anime. If it was simply people who did not like that style of anime hating on it, that would be one thing. However, there are people like me, who want to like this anime. There is so much right with the anime, but the one thing that is wrong with it, is the writing. It is very, very, poorly written. It has a wonderful premise, great characters, the worlds are even fleshed out enough to be interesting, both SAO and ALO, so why does it suck? BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT. The writing reduces all these wonderful things into a very narrowly focused love story / harem anime. The show wastes 99% of its potential.

Everyone who hates on it, whether they like the whole MMO premise or not, is basically saying the same thing, that it is horribly written. Hopefully Log Horizon is well written enough to make people forget about SAO.


???? What the? GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! LOL I read the then online novels first and while I liked a lot of the supplemental material, I would have preferred if the story really delved into the life of and adventures of the people trapped in SAO. Instead, it was more about Kirito's love life ( a relationship being developed where only a game obsessed gamer could find a romance) than anything. Would have been cool to see how most of the dungeons were cleared and how so many didn't make it. Lots of compelling drama potential but as you stated, 99% wasted. Just a very badly written story with too much substantial material left to side stories/supplemental material which the anime failed to correct by leaving out plenty of Asuna and Kirito's interactions (if you're gonna make it a love story, then do so and even include their duel).



As for this article in question, I didn't care for it and I don't feel any of us should pay it any mind. I've been watching anime full well understanding the difference between Japanese animation and western animation since 1986 (I've been watching longer but didn't understand the distinction of Toei animated shows from say Warner Bros cartoons until then as a kid). If there's anything I've learned, it's that you can't sway people's opinions on what is good anime or bad. Just like how a person's taste in art is subjective. I lost count how much anime of all genre's I've seen. Some I wish I had time to experience again and some I can never unsee no matter how hard I try and through it all, it doesn't make me an expert on other people's personal preferences. I only know what I like and what I dislike and it has diddly to do with perspective. I'm also getting deja vu here. Old Atari to 16 bit era gamers complaining about this gen's gamers supposedly having no taste in games and only wanting more Madden and Call of Duty. So not an argument worth having.
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Posted 9/22/13


You see this response to my post? Amazing. That's all i ask if you want to state your opinions towards me or anyone else. Sure you don't owe anyone an explanation of why you like an anime, but if your trying to boast about why it's so good this is all you need. I agree with most of what you say, but the flaws in the shows just turn me off more than the positive in the shows. Thanks.

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Posted 9/22/13

Felstalker wrote:


drakedogma wrote:

If anyone knows who the Nostalgia Critic is, I got my entire way of thinking from him. For example, he recently reviewed Bridge to Teribithia, that movie is a childhood favorite of mine, but he doesn't like it and he reviewed it. So am I supposed to judge him based off the criteria of whether he liked it or not? Actually, when it comes to opinions and objective reasoning, whether or not the nostalgia critic liked my movie or not is completely irrelevant, it's about whether or not his arguments for either liking it or disliking it are good objectively, that way, I will have no complaints whether or not he liked it or not.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, it's about how well you can explain and objectively explain it, and I seem to see more logical arguments coming out from the people who hate SAO as compared to people who like it because it's popular and they heard it from a recommendation


I'm liking this guys way of thinking, and since he posted it a few seconds before I started trying to catch up on this thread page, i'm totally puting down a "I'm hear, reading what you said" quote post in.

I'm sure i can give some good logical arguments as to why SAO is good, far more on why it's bad, but I'm more than ready to defend the hell out of it because.


So um, give me a moment to read every post and give some thought on it, where I'm at in this argument is several topics behind at this point.

I wish you the absolute best of luck in defending SAO (it's one of my favorites) & look forward to reading your arguments for it.
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Posted 9/22/13
I'm not saying that objectivity is impossible, I'm saying it's near impossible once you've already formulated a personal opinion on it that sways in either direction by any amount.

You can say all you want that SAO is bad, but you won't be correct because numbers don't lie. You can then take it up a notch and say oh, that's simply because the anime community has shitty taste, and you'd still be wrong because you don't possess the kind of power declare such a thing, factually. You don't know everyone in the anime community. You're just blanketing them on the basis of your own opinion.

See, you are precisely the iconic image of what the problem I've described is. You can't see past your own face far enough to distinguish your opinion from that of indisputable fact. It's an indisputable fact that SAO is popular, has experienced success, and has a large following, one that is passionate enough to have promoted its shelf-life probably for years to come. That's all it ever wished to be, and it was. That is an indisputable fact.

You, saying that the story is shit, with all of your various reasons as to why it's a rubbish piece of work, is not indisputable fact. It's your opinion. You aren't even capable of reaching the threshold of the subjective VS objective, because you lack perception enough to even grasp opinion vs fact.
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