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How can I tell if a guy likes me?
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13
All guys are different.
That being said, when a guy likes someone it is synonymous to them enjoying someone. So look for hints that they are happier than average when interacting with you. If you find that they seem happy, check closer to see if you are in their immediate attention so you can link whether or not you are responsible for their current mood, like if they are making eye contact, looking at you, listening to you, etc. Even if they are not in direct conversation with you, someone who likes you may put you on higher priority of their attention and may show these hints as a bystander listening in on your conversation or watching you do something and the things they gather from you can still impact their mood giving you signs of their affection.
They will usually give you above average attention if they like you, but sometimes an indication that they do not like you can be if they space out in your presence often because its hard to block out and ignore what the person you like is saying. Don't affiliate this comment with someone spacing out because of a late night, or because of an awkward silence or pause that gave them time to get lost in thought. This is only to be applied to someone directly conversing with you who seems uninterested enough to space out during conversation.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

bogglehank wrote:

Friend zone is most certainly a thing, meaning exactly what it says and has no gender specifications. When describing someone you are friends with you might say they are within your group of friends which has the same meaning as friend zone. The only differences are:
1) Friend zone is usually used in context referring to a singular individual, while group of friends is very clearly plural.
2) There is a slight distinction between "zone" and "group" as zone in this context would refer to a place in the social relationship, while group classifies the individual in a category with other individuals.
The common scenario to use "Friend Zone" over "Group of friends" is when through context or topic there is a defined singularity that separates the individual from the "Group" and this singularity is that the individual being categorized in the friend zone does not feel the same way about the other person.

A funny spin on "Friend Zone" is that technically any social status that is not equivalently categorized between the individuals while one is clearly categorized as a friend can be considered "Friend Zone". In other words a person who finds someone annoying enough to think of someone as less then a friend, or perhaps a distant friend might find themselves in the friend zone if the person who might refuse to think of them as anything but their friend. Very similar to the scenarios where someone can be a persons best friend but the person may not be your personal best friend.

Saying "Friend Zone" does not exist is like saying "Lunch Time" does not exist, while "Zone" and "Time" are both vague categorizations pertaining to a greater explanation that usually portrays itself within the context of the sentence they are used in.

Sorry about the very nit picky technical rant, i get in a mood for ranting sometimes.. I'll leave an actual comment for the thread starters question in the next post..


Oh, good lord. I really hope you did not just compare a chauvinistic concept to "lunch time". I'm just going to ignore that and pretend that never happened.

First off, I read through what you wrote. I had some difficulty interpreting some of it, but I think I can manage with what I got. I understand the technical definition of what "friend" and "zone" mean when put together in a compound word. I understand it as a concept. Do I think it's real? Absolutely not.

I'd like to add, though, that I appreciate you at least saying that you believe the concept of friendzoning is gender-blind. From there, I can very easily accept it as just a variation on the concept of unrequited love. But I repeat, the friend zone is not a thing.

Butthurt, rejected morons banded together some time back and coined this term, "friend zone", in order to justify their plight. Their plight, however, is not any worse than any other unrequited love or rejection in the world. The only difference is that these butthurt, rejected morons happened to be jerks, too: they befriended their love interest with the sole purpose of magically opening up the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship with her/him.

I have never had a problem being attracted to any one of my guy friends. This is because my guy friends are real. They didn't just do a bunch of nice things for me and expect to roll over in bed for them. We've been through thick and thin and I wouldn't mind dating any of them if they ever felt that way about me.

But if some poor twat just started following me around and doing nice things for me and start whining halfway into the friendship that I'm not "giving anything back"? I break off all ties with that miserable loser because that's not why anyone should befriend me.

In fact, I, and many others being accused of "friendzoning", suffer from the direct effects of this insane delusion. We get friends that we think we get to hang out with and discuss similar interests with. But when it turns out they only wanted a relationship, say goodbye to that movie outing. And you know what? That REALLY sucks because I really hope this person actually liked superheroes and wanted to see that movie, and that he wasn't just discussing that with me to get into my pants.

The guy in the above depicted scenario would've never broken off that movie outing if he'd been discussing it with his male friend. So yeah, boo-hoo, guys get "friendzoned". Well, let me tell you about how ANNOYING it is when a guy comes up to me and tries to be my friend for the SOLE PURPOSE of sticking it in me. That is called male entitlement.

The "friend zone" only exists because dirtbags make sure it does. If you don't want to be friend zoned? Don't try friendzoning yourself.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

Latchan wrote:

Oh, good lord. I really hope you did not just compare a chauvinistic concept to "lunch time". I'm just going to ignore that and pretend that never happened.

First off, I read through what you wrote. I had some difficulty interpreting some of it, but I think I can manage with what I got. I understand the technical definition of what "friend" and "zone" mean when put together in a compound word. I understand it as a concept. Do I think it's real? Absolutely not.

I'd like to add, though, that I appreciate you at least saying that you believe the concept of friendzoning is gender-blind. From there, I can very easily accept it as just a variation on the concept of unrequited love. But I repeat, the friend zone is not a thing.

Butthurt, rejected morons banded together some time back and coined this term, "friend zone", in order to justify their plight. Their plight, however, is not any worse than any other unrequited love or rejection in the world. The only difference is that these butthurt, rejected morons happened to be jerks, too: they befriended their love interest with the sole purpose of magically opening up the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship with her/him.

I have never had a problem being attracted to any one of my guy friends. This is because my guy friends are real. They didn't just do a bunch of nice things for me and expect to roll over in bed for them. We've been through thick and thin and I wouldn't mind dating any of them if they ever felt that way about me.

But if some poor twat just started following me around and doing nice things for me and start whining halfway into the friendship that I'm not "giving anything back"? I break off all ties with that miserable loser because that's not why anyone should befriend me.

In fact, I, and many others being accused of "friendzoning", suffer from the direct effects of this insane delusion. We get friends that we think we get to hang out with and discuss similar interests with. But when it turns out they only wanted a relationship, say goodbye to that movie outing. And you know what? That REALLY sucks because I really hope this person actually liked superheroes and wanted to see that movie, and that he wasn't just discussing that with me to get into my pants.

The guy in the above depicted scenario would've never broken off that movie outing if he'd been discussing it with his male friend. So yeah, boo-hoo, guys get "friendzoned". Well, let me tell you about how ANNOYING it is when a guy comes up to me and tries to be my friend for the SOLE PURPOSE of sticking it in me. That is called male entitlement.

The "friend zone" only exists because dirtbags make sure it does. If you don't want to be friend zoned? Don't try friendzoning yourself.

You have a very different perspective of the term. There is absolutely nothing chauvinistic about the concept of friend zone, in order for this to be you must be pulling the thought from some form of personal sublime context that directly relates to your perspective. Its a perfectly neutral term that can only be made chauvinistic through context and it is the context that is actually the source of it becoming this way. It is people who believe that it is the guy who should ask the girl to date that are chauvinistic and is probably a great source of personal subliminal context that make people believe the friend zone is chauvinistic.

If our life experience with the term "Friend zone" were the context then the word would be far from the same meaning between my context and your context. Where i live the word is fairly neutral, if not a positive synonym to being rejected. I have "friend zoned" a few girls in the past who remain actively to this day my friends, and i have been "friend zoned" by one whom i still maintain a friendship with. In my context it truly means a friend who is categorized differently from the other friends due to their feelings not being mutual. In order for someone to be a potential partner in a relationship they should be at least a friend before becoming a partner and friend zone is a way of describing your friends who are deemed friend only due to some incompatibility one of the two has with the other that restricts them from affection. Unless someone is dating random people they don't know in order to get to know them, in which case they will probably go through ALLOT of relationships.

This is a very interesting topic with how many meanings such a simple term can have and it really makes me think that i should probably avoid using this term publicly in places im not familiar with to avoid possible misinterpretations after hearing your perspective.
Jax211 
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Latchan, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, I do believe that there is such thing as a friend zone.

First off I have to say the experience you're describing doesn't sound like friend zoning to me, it sounds like some douche bag pretending to be your friend simply to try to go out with you or have sex, and then when they are unsuccessful they say that they're stuck in the friend zone and give up and move on. To me this is not being "friend zoned" that is some stupid idiot trying to pickup a girl.

To be in the friend zone you have to actually legitimately be friends in the first place and actually stay friends after trying to take it to the next level, otherwise its a simple case of a guy hitting on a girl, striking out, and moving on.

For me to say that someone's been put in the friend zone (yes I also believe it's gender neutral and have know girls who've been put here as well) the following things need to have happened:

1: The two people become friends
2: One of them tries to change from being just friends, to actually going out
3: The other friend declines (usually saying something along the lines of, "I couldn't think of you as anything else but a great friend," or something)
4: The two people still remain friends

You keep saying that being "friend zoned" is just unrequited love but I don't think that's 100% true. Unrequited love, if I'm not mistaken, can happen between two people who may have never even talked before, where as in order to be put in the friend zone, the two people have to be friends.

Also you keep talking about someone putting someone else in the friend zone as a negative thing, which I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing. I can understand why you'd hate it if the experiences that you've talked about could actually be considered as friend zoning someone, but I think it was just idiots who were looking for someone to blame, so they blamed you, making them grade A douche bags.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

bogglehank wrote:


Latchan wrote:

Oh, good lord. I really hope you did not just compare a chauvinistic concept to "lunch time". I'm just going to ignore that and pretend that never happened.

First off, I read through what you wrote. I had some difficulty interpreting some of it, but I think I can manage with what I got. I understand the technical definition of what "friend" and "zone" mean when put together in a compound word. I understand it as a concept. Do I think it's real? Absolutely not.

I'd like to add, though, that I appreciate you at least saying that you believe the concept of friendzoning is gender-blind. From there, I can very easily accept it as just a variation on the concept of unrequited love. But I repeat, the friend zone is not a thing.

Butthurt, rejected morons banded together some time back and coined this term, "friend zone", in order to justify their plight. Their plight, however, is not any worse than any other unrequited love or rejection in the world. The only difference is that these butthurt, rejected morons happened to be jerks, too: they befriended their love interest with the sole purpose of magically opening up the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship with her/him.

I have never had a problem being attracted to any one of my guy friends. This is because my guy friends are real. They didn't just do a bunch of nice things for me and expect to roll over in bed for them. We've been through thick and thin and I wouldn't mind dating any of them if they ever felt that way about me.

But if some poor twat just started following me around and doing nice things for me and start whining halfway into the friendship that I'm not "giving anything back"? I break off all ties with that miserable loser because that's not why anyone should befriend me.

In fact, I, and many others being accused of "friendzoning", suffer from the direct effects of this insane delusion. We get friends that we think we get to hang out with and discuss similar interests with. But when it turns out they only wanted a relationship, say goodbye to that movie outing. And you know what? That REALLY sucks because I really hope this person actually liked superheroes and wanted to see that movie, and that he wasn't just discussing that with me to get into my pants.

The guy in the above depicted scenario would've never broken off that movie outing if he'd been discussing it with his male friend. So yeah, boo-hoo, guys get "friendzoned". Well, let me tell you about how ANNOYING it is when a guy comes up to me and tries to be my friend for the SOLE PURPOSE of sticking it in me. That is called male entitlement.

The "friend zone" only exists because dirtbags make sure it does. If you don't want to be friend zoned? Don't try friendzoning yourself.

You have a very different perspective of the term. There is absolutely nothing chauvinistic about the concept of friend zone, in order for this to be you must be pulling the thought from some form of personal sublime context that directly relates to your perspective. Its a perfectly neutral term that can only be made chauvinistic through context and it is the context that is actually the source of it becoming this way. It is people who believe that it is the guy who should ask the girl to date that are chauvinistic and is probably a great source of personal subliminal context that make people believe the friend zone is chauvinistic.

If our life experience with the term "Friend zone" were the context then the word would be far from the same meaning between my context and your context. Where i live the word is fairly neutral, if not a positive synonym to being rejected. I have "friend zoned" a few girls in the past who remain actively to this day my friends, and i have been "friend zoned" by one whom i still maintain a friendship with. In my context it truly means a friend who is categorized differently from the other friends due to their feelings not being mutual. In order for someone to be a potential partner in a relationship they should be at least a friend before becoming a partner and friend zone is a way of describing your friends who are deemed friend only due to some incompatibility one of the two has with the other that restricts them from affection. Unless someone is dating random people they don't know in order to get to know them, in which case they will probably go through ALLOT of relationships.

This is a very interesting topic with how many meanings such a simple term can have and it really makes me think that i should probably avoid using this term publicly in places im not familiar with to avoid possible misinterpretations after hearing your perspective.


I find the "friend zone" a chauvinistic concept because it directly comments on what our society views the female presence to be. A woman's company is only desirable if it is the gateway to sex/romance, and it is not desirable in itself. In other words, the man does not actually view the woman's friendship as sufficient and demands more from her whereas this is never the case for his male friends. What if his male friend was bi-curious and wanted to try having sex with him, wanting "something more"? Is this man, upon refusal to comply with his friend's request, then to be accused of "friendzoning"?

Of course, you have clearly established to me that you do not find the "friend zone" something limited to women, so I digress. I only wanted to explain to you that my usage of "chauvinistic" did not come out of the blue.

I dislike the term "friend zone" in general because to me, it is exactly the same as "she/he didn't like me back" except it carries with it that hint of sexism which ties directly back to women being accused later of "not giving back". This has happened to me, and this has happened to many of my friends before. I do not like it. They do not like it. We have done nothing wrong, and we do not deserve to be called out for something that every single person in the world will be at both ends of at one point or another.

In your more mild context, I can understand your usage of "friend zone". I still would never use it because I prefer "he didn't like me back", as it is much less negative and less accusatory to the other party.

Thank you for being so considerate while discussing this with me. I appreciate you trying to understand where I'm coming from.
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Posted 9/23/13
Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

Jax211 wrote:

Latchan, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, I do believe that there is such thing as a friend zone.

First off I have to say the experience you're describing doesn't sound like friend zoning to me, it sounds like some douche bag pretending to be your friend simply to try to go out with you or have sex, and then when they are unsuccessful they say that they're stuck in the friend zone and give up and move on. To me this is not being "friend zoned" that is some stupid idiot trying to pickup a girl.

To be in the friend zone you have to actually legitimately be friends in the first place and actually stay friends after trying to take it to the next level, otherwise its a simple case of a guy hitting on a girl, striking out, and moving on.

For me to say that someone's been put in the friend zone (yes I also believe it's gender neutral and have know girls who've been put here as well) the following things need to have happened:

1: The two people become friends
2: One of them tries to change from being just friends, to actually going out
3: The other friend declines (usually saying something along the lines of, "I couldn't think of you as anything else but a great friend," or something)
4: The two people still remain friends

You keep saying that being "friend zoned" is just unrequited love but I don't think that's 100% true. Unrequited love, if I'm not mistaken, can happen between two people who may have never even talked before, where as in order to be put in the friend zone, the two people have to be friends.

Also you keep talking about someone putting someone else in the friend zone as a negative thing, which I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing. I can understand why you'd hate it if the experiences that you've talked about could actually be considered as friend zoning someone, but I think it was just idiots who were looking for someone to blame, so they blamed you, making them grade A douche bags.


I'm glad that you view it as "being picked up", but this happens with guys over a significant span of time. I'm not sure that can be viewed as being "picked up". Also, if he approaches me with the clearly expressed motive of being my friend, and I start to treat him as my friend, where's the shame in that? Hey, you like them, I like them too. Let's have a really long conversation about it, but wait, because two months later I'm going to get really mad at you for not responding to my "advances" and never speak to you again, even though you probably really enjoyed my company and valued my presence as a friend.

Great.

Yeah, I have trouble making friends because of crap like this.

The above scenario you have described is a good scenario. I like it. There is nothing to be ashamed about. So why is it--in the posts in this very forum, even--that in every single piece of pop culture ever and every bit of casual conversation about the "friend zone" so explicitly goshdarnit NEGATIVE and ACCUSATORY?

The person I initially replied to about the "friend zone" practically accused the hypothetical female of not going for him and instead going for the "asshole" like she should be ASHAMED of friendzoning him and that she should feel like crap for it. Please, answer me that.

What you define as the "friend zone" is perfectly acceptable. But it is not, I think, what people refer to when they bitterly recall the "friend zone".
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Posted 9/23/13

ChaosChilde wrote:

Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.


See? She is a tease. She leads him on. It is her fault. Sorry for trying to just be friends, apparently. Even though he approached her with the vocalized interest of being friends. Sorry that she didn't catch on to his actual sole purpose of hooking up with her. Isn't this deception, actually? Why is it the girl's fault? Why is the guy not a jerk for expecting more from her than friendship and calling her out for it afterward?

Why is this never pointed out about the "friend zone"?
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Posted 9/23/13

Latchan wrote:


ChaosChilde wrote:

Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.


See? She is a tease. She leads him on. It is her fault. Sorry for trying to just be friends, apparently. Even though he approached her with the vocalized interest of being friends. Sorry that she didn't catch on to his actual sole purpose of hooking up with her. Isn't this deception, actually? Why is it the girl's fault? Why is the guy not a jerk for expecting more from her than friendship and calling her out for it afterward?

Why is this never pointed out about the "friend zone"?


I think I understand fully what your definition of the friend zone is, or rather what it means in your life's context. I usually go by the old term of using someone in severe cases for describing these scenarios. But there is also a large difference between someone pursing further affection from someone by helping with everything and someone who is always asked to help because the one needing help knows the helper likes them and won't refuse.
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Posted 9/23/13

Latchan wrote:


ChaosChilde wrote:

Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.


See? She is a tease. She leads him on. It is her fault. Sorry for trying to just be friends, apparently. Even though he approached her with the vocalized interest of being friends. Sorry that she didn't catch on to his actual sole purpose of hooking up with her. Isn't this deception, actually? Why is it the girl's fault? Why is the guy not a jerk for expecting more from her than friendship and calling her out for it afterward?

Why is this never pointed out about the "friend zone"?


I like how you assumed that the guy in this fictional scenario approached the girl and then blamed the girl for putting him in "the friend zone" despite no indication of this being the situation.

I've read every one of your posts and you've enjoyed calling the term "friend zone" chauvinistic at every turn, but every time you've made the assumption that the guy approached the girl as a friend with ulterior motives and obviously never considered that maybe this fictional girl approached this fictional guy with the intended purpose of leading him on, making him think he had a chance of more with her, in order to get something from him. While many of the other posts that have stated that the friend-zone doesn't know gender hold no slant of blame to one side or the other, every one of your posts has a very obvious slant in one direction. The fact that this never crossed your mind leads me to the conclusion that you just like to blame men and because of this, your opinion on the matter doesn't hold much weight as far as I'm concerned.
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Just tell him. Men are blunt.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

bogglehank wrote:


Latchan wrote:


ChaosChilde wrote:

Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.


See? She is a tease. She leads him on. It is her fault. Sorry for trying to just be friends, apparently. Even though he approached her with the vocalized interest of being friends. Sorry that she didn't catch on to his actual sole purpose of hooking up with her. Isn't this deception, actually? Why is it the girl's fault? Why is the guy not a jerk for expecting more from her than friendship and calling her out for it afterward?

Why is this never pointed out about the "friend zone"?


I think I understand fully what your definition of the friend zone is, or rather what it means in your life's context. I usually go by the old term of using someone in severe cases for describing these scenarios. But there is also a large difference between someone pursing further affection from someone by helping with everything and someone who is always asked to help because the one needing help knows the helper likes them and won't refuse.


Who does that?!

This is not the first time I've heard that argument before. I swear to you that is like a mythical creature or something because I have never encountered such a situation before in my life, whether in my own life experiences or anyone else I know. Also, that's nothing to do with a "friend zone" and everything to do with emotional manipulation. The guy in question needs to stop being a pushover and take a stand for himself and the girl in question needs to grow up and stop messing around with human emotions like they are playthings.

In general, I don't know of any person who would ever purposefully take advantage of feelings like that. The people who reject the rejectees are human, too. We feel horrible enough having to turn people down. You feel like, I kid you not, horse crap eaten and thrown back up again. In fact, I avoid asking for favors or ANYTHING from someone once I am made aware of his feelings for me because I am so uncomfortable with the pedestal I have been put upon.
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13

hyjinx17 wrote:


Latchan wrote:


ChaosChilde wrote:

Friend ZOne is when the girl wants you to help her with stuff, but avoids dating (sort of tease/leads on).

The easiest way is to ask him when you are alone,say over lunch, drinks, movie etc.

Make sure he didn't recently breakup with someone.


See? She is a tease. She leads him on. It is her fault. Sorry for trying to just be friends, apparently. Even though he approached her with the vocalized interest of being friends. Sorry that she didn't catch on to his actual sole purpose of hooking up with her. Isn't this deception, actually? Why is it the girl's fault? Why is the guy not a jerk for expecting more from her than friendship and calling her out for it afterward?

Why is this never pointed out about the "friend zone"?


I like how you assumed that the guy in this fictional scenario approached the girl and then blamed the girl for putting him in "the friend zone" despite no indication of this being the situation.

I've read every one of your posts and you've enjoyed calling the term "friend zone" chauvinistic at every turn, but every time you've made the assumption that the guy approached the girl as a friend with ulterior motives and obviously never considered that maybe this fictional girl approached this fictional guy with the intended purpose of leading him on, making him think he had a chance of more with her, in order to get something from him. While many of the other posts that have stated that the friend-zone doesn't know gender hold no slant of blame to one side or the other, every one of your posts has a very obvious slant in one direction. The fact that this never crossed your mind leads me to the conclusion that you just like to blame men and because of this, your opinion on the matter doesn't hold much weight as far as I'm concerned.


I called it chauvinistic twice. Once because I was appalled, and the second time to explain. I added afterward that I was only touching on it further to explain, too. I take no joy in chauvinism. If you think I do, I'm sorry.

This is because my fictional scenario is specific, and it is how I see the bitter "friend zone" that so many guys refer to. If you put it in a mild, acceptable context like bogglehank did, I certainly don't mind. My scenario also slants toward genders as a response to the accusatory criticism I mentioned that slants toward genders. Show me some piece of pop culture that negatively laments over the "friend zone" from a girl's perspective as if it is the guy's fault, and explain to me now why it is okay for a guy to do it to a girl.

If you think I just like to blame men, I am very sorry. I am sorry because of everything I have typed, every word of my posts that you have read all of, the point has just flown over your head. And for that, I'm sorry.
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Before we overwhelm the original question of this thread... Anyone who thinks they have a clue what the friend zone is should read its definition and explanation on wikipedia. It truly is neutral and non biased towards any group, sex or religion. It is not about people using one another either. Any negative inclinations anyone has about the term "friend zone" are your personal experiences clouding its actual neutrality with your own invisible context. A decent example of this current situation would be the modern term "grammar nazi" and if someone were to call themselves one in the presence of a ww2 veteran who might pull an invisible context of their experience with the term "nazi" and get very offended. I hope this clears up a few misunderstandings.
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Oh. I think I understand what just happened. Okay, I pulled ChaosChilde's words as an example for bogglehank and Jax211 to understand the sort of context "friend zone" means to me. So hyjinx17, if that was directed to me because it seemed so irrelevant for me to pull that situation out of thin air, I was recycling it from my earlier posts. I apologize for the confusion.

Also, as much as the guy in ChaosChilde's scenario is willing to help his friend, I am sure the girl is equally willing to help him back should the occasion ever rise. A friendship is 50/50. Anything less is emotional manipulation, like I said.

But like I said, bogglehank, I appreciate your patience and consideration in discussing this with me.
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