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"That's just your opinion!"
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Posted 9/23/13 , edited 9/23/13
OP you are very eloquent and you proved your point in the first three paragraphs. A few more paragraph breaks wouldn't hurt though, this was hard on the eyes.
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Posted 9/23/13
Okay, my earlier comment was rather silly and non-productive so I'll delete it. My apologies, it's a bad habit I've picked up.

Anyway in regards to the actual conversation, I think a clarification of terms needs to be made because the term opinion (like most words) is can be interpreted differently, despite the particular meaning an author (or in this case chromosome who started the thread) had in mind. Now, opinion doesn't equal fact, but it certainly seems to have the implication of being a judgment on whether or not something is true http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion (notice definitions 1 and 3 of the full definition; as well as synonyms).
So objecting to how people misuse the term "opinion" is valid, although it does not necessarily equal fact . Example: If I am very ill, I would very much like to get several opinions (Judgments based upon facts) from different Doctors to determine what my illness is (the Truth or the Fact). To continue let's say I have West Nile Virus. One Doctor might say, "It's an allergic reaction."( A bad opinion), the second says, "It's a virus of some sort."( A better opinion, one closer to the fact of the matter, ), last one says,"You have West Nile Virus"( the opinion expressed is the "Correct Opinion", and best represents the facts).
When people typically use the term "opinion" the word they should use to best express what they mean would probably be "preference". I short, an "opinion" is either bad or good depending on how true it is.
Posted 9/23/13
Never heard anyone say those two phrases before :(.

Be like water OP lol jk
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Posted 9/23/13
Didn't bother reading through it all...

That's just your opinion. IDGAF.
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Posted 9/23/13

-tion wrote:

Be like water OP lol jk


Bruce Lee! He was awesome.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

BearSol wrote:



Sorry, but you're wrong. I don't think you fully understand the use and meaning of these words.


Which words? I used a lot of them. Just "fact," "opinion," and "idea"?


Only a fact can be right or wrong as it's a matter of certainty. Ideas are up for debate as they have not been proven. Opinions are derived from personal preferences and view points particular to individuals.

Opinions can be stupid, absurd, brilliant or inspiring but they can't be right or wrong because they're subjective and not concrete. They're what you want them to be.
Facts are either right or wrong, they're not subjective. It is or it isn't, there's no grey area where it depends on the view of the person in question. You don't have a choice in the matter, it is what it is.


I hope this helps clear your confusion.


I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by fact. From what I can glean from your post, you define a fact as "anything that's certain", an idea as "something that hasn't been proven", and an opinion as "a personal preference or viewpoint of an individual." Is that accurate?

I'll just ask for clarification before I begin arguing, because the way most people define "ideas" leads to a possibility of proof ("If a=b and b=c, then a=c" is comprised completely of ideas). In fact, I was under the impression that ideas were the only thing that can be verified. It doesn't make any sense to me to prove the validity of "chicken." You can try to prove the validity of the "existence of chicken" or the "taste of chicken", but those are both ideas. Again, I need further clarification on your definition of these things. It might also be instructive to me if you could provide an example of a "proven fact" that doesn't also qualify as an opinion. It seems to me that any statement made about the state of the world must also be that person's viewpoint on the state of the world. If you'd like, we can use my definitions, but personally, I'd rather argue on your terms -- I already pretty much understand what I'm talking about.


Atheyon wrote:


I do think there is a difference between "fact" and "opinion," but I hold that both are verifiable and subject to logic -- even the emotional ones you mentioned earlier. A conclusion based on emotion can be just as correct (or incorrect) as a conclusion based on logic. They are harder to understand, and give me a headache when used, but they are just as verifiable. "God doesn't exist" is either right or wrong regardless of your reasoning. Whether you believe that statement based on logic, or emotion, the statement itself is either true or false. I think we're mostly agreed on that point though, so I'll get back to the difference between fact and opinion:

The statement "there aren't any aliens on mars" is a statement of fact that we don't have the means to verify, but it is nonetheless true or false. Likewise, the statement "I think there aren't any aliens on mars" is a statement of opinion that in some ways might be easier to verify -- either you do think that or you don't. There is a fact itself: "aliens (do/don't) exist on mars." But any statement of this fact also reflects a viewpoint or belief: "I hold that aliens (do/don't) exist on mars." Further, I'd ask this: Do you call it a fact that "if a=a, then a=a"? Clearly, it's true, but it doesn't look to me as though it has any basis in objective reality. There's no "thing" that you go check to see if it's true; you just test the ideas. It seems subjectively true, as the concepts are contained and verified completely within the mind. I'm not yet using it to prove a point, but I do wonder what your thoughts are.
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Posted 9/24/13
What you described, is exactly why I'm a scientist.

A mountain of mush-headed opinions can't outweigh experimental data. All claims must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than relying on a priori reasoning, intuition, anecdotes, or revelations. And claims which cannot be falsified are automatically rejected as bullshit.
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Posted 9/24/13
...
To each, their own
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26 / M / NJ
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Posted 9/24/13
Sigh ok you do realize that saying "I think 2+2=4" isn't an opinion in and of itself right? 2+2=4 is a fact put in place by the practice of mathematics. Within Mathematics, 2+2=4 every time. Putting "I think" in front of it does not make that an opinion, you've just added two useless words to the fact of "2+2=4" You can't dispute this because despite what words you use, the number of objects is the same. In your version of mathematics maybe the amount "two" is called "three". Or 2+2=fish. Fish in this example represents the same amount as four, you've just given it a different word to represent that number, but no matter what you call it Two is two and four is four. This is undisputed fact.

For your second example, "Blue is the best color" that in and of itself is an opinion. The definition of Best is "of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality" but since blue is unable to take any sentient action to give it a factual advantage over any other color, it is up to an individual to identify what type or quality is most excellent, effective or desirable to them. This is an opinion that cannot be wrong.

Now, if you were to say something like, "Grand Theft Auto V is the best at sales, among video games, during it's first 3 days of release" that is a factual statement because it has indeed outsold any other video game within that time period. Now if someone where to say that "GTA V was the best video game" that sentence in and of itself is an opinion and is neither true nor false, but if you ask "best at what?" and they reply "best at sales among video games" they are now stating a fact, not an opinion. If they answer "It's best because it's the most fun and has the best story" this is an opinion because both things can be disputed. I find reading tedious and boring while others find it exciting and entertaining. This is by definition an opinion because you can't indisputably prove either of us right or wrong.

Here's a final example; "I think God is real" is an opinion based on a belief that can neither be proven or disproven. "I believe the bible is not a real book" this is not an opinion, this is a factually wrong statement because the bible is indeed "a written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

If a fact exists as "a thing that is indisputably the case" then an opinion must exist when something can be disputed.

"I think the world is round" was an opinion held by some until it became a fact and now the statement, "I think the world is round" is simply 2 worthless words added to the indisputable fact that The world is indeed round.

So your post is factually wrong because it is not an opinion. You are stating the fact that opinions are either right or wrong, which by it's definition is incorrect, thus what you are saying is wrong. Indisputably.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

dax20798 wrote:

I'm not certain what your rant about "everyone's brains work the same" is supposed to mean. In terms of 'tastes' and 'interests', people do vary considerably. I (my brain/mind/whatever) have no interest in sports. Others see sports as a way of life. Some people are obsessed with working out and looking and feeling their best; others could care less and just sit around on their ass all day watching cartoons. We're different. The End.

Do you mean that, biologically speaking, all humans require certain things in order to continue to live? Well then, yeah, no question, in that context, everyone has the same 'taste' (actually more like 'needs'). You're really getting into what is called semantics with your ranting, though. You're redefining terms like 'interests' and 'tastes' in very specific ways.


Yeah, I'm fully aware that I'm being unclear and making a claim that is not very well-regarded in the last couple of paragraphs. Nonetheless, a thorough defense would take more energy to write than I am willing to give. So for now, I'm simply stating my opinion without any evidence or clear reasoning. I have my reasons, but decline to give them right now. Likewise, I fully accept any criticisms against my claim -- I meant it completely as an aside to the post, think of it as an off-hand remark.


I find it a little bizarre that you get so apoplectic over someone not sharing the same view as you, to be brutally honest...


Well, it's certainly not the first time I've been called bizarre. The apoplexy is not so much from different views, but from mass distribution of different views. When there's two conflicting views, then at least one of them is wrong, and I feel a slight urge to correct it. If it's only one person, then it's not worth the energy to argue and I get over it within a few milliseconds. However, when a lot of people (I'd even say most in this case) hold a different view, then my urge to correct exceeds my urge to laze about, and I state my differing view, hoping that either someone can correct me, I can correct someone, or we can all be corrected.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

hyjinx17 wrote:



Rather than a point-by-point debate, I think it might be quicker for you to define what you're talking about by "opinion" and "fact." If you'd like, I will look at your arguments point-by-point, but it seems like a spectacular waste of time when showing a property for a few examples doesn't prove it for every example. To be clear, I define a "fact" as a statement on the state of the world, and an opinion as a statement on a personal view or belief held. Based on those definitions, it seems like you couldn't state that you know 2+2=4 without believing that 2+2=4. You hold the view that 2+2=4. The opinion that 2+2=4 is a correct one (not in all of mathematics, but in real analysis certainly. I won't argue it for now though). How can you claim that 2+2=4 is an indisputable truth without believing or thinking that it is? But we can use your definitions. What is a fact? What do you mean when you say opinion?
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Posted 9/24/13
the sweet irony of this thread is hilarious
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Posted 9/24/13
Too much to read!!! I think it's a phrase not to hurt others...well that's what I use it for anyways
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Posted 9/24/13
Some things don't have a single correct answer. In your example of "the best colour", that's purely based on the person's opinion. How do you explain why you like a colour?

Also, there is a big difference between what you think is true, and your opinion. For example, I think there is no god. That's not an opinion. It's a conclusion I have come to based on the evidence at hand. It is my opinion that the evidence at hand suggests that there is no god. Opinions are for things that can't be factually proved, or do not have a correct answer. It is my opinion that chocolate tastes great. I don't know why it tastes good. It just does. I can't describe a taste, a smell, a colour, a feeling, an emotion.

Morals are something entirely opinion based. One could potentially argue positively or negatively for any action that a person takes. Morals are a human concept, not one inherently in the universe. Why is killing someone wrong? Because it hurts people. Why is hurting people wrong?... How do you explain why hurting people is wrong? Whether something hurts someone is taken to be the sole basis of whether something is morally sound or not, but there's no real reason that hurting people is wrong. Sadness is not an inherently bad thing. We just perceive it to be so. Is the very existence of the universe a good thing? What even is "good" and "bad"? Again, they are simply human concepts to describe things that we are predisposed by instincts given to us through natural selection to find beneficial or detrimental to our survival.

With that being said, generally if you're stating your opinion, it's on a subjective matter, so facts are kind of pointless in such a case. If someone said "School Days is the best, and Grave of the Fireflies is the worst", obviously they'd be trolling, but if they were serious, then to them, they aren't wrong. To call an opinion "correct" is to show a lack of understanding of what the concept of an opinion is.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

Richybabes wrote:

Some things don't have a single correct answer. In your example of "the best colour", that's purely based on the person's opinion. How do you explain why you like a colour?


Right, so if there is no correct answer, and someone claims that there is a correct answer, then he's claiming something false. Right?


Also, there is a big difference between what you think is true, and your opinion. For example, I think there is no god. That's not an opinion. It's a conclusion I have come to based on the evidence at hand. It is my opinion that the evidence at hand suggests that there is no god. Opinions are for things that can't be factually proved, or do not have a correct answer. It is my opinion that chocolate tastes great. I don't know why it tastes good. It just does. I can't describe a taste, a smell, a colour, a feeling, an emotion.

Morals are something entirely opinion based. One could potentially argue positively or negatively for any action that a person takes. Morals are a human concept, not one inherently in the universe. Why is killing someone wrong? Because it hurts people. Why is hurting people wrong?... How do you explain why hurting people is wrong? Whether something hurts someone is taken to be the sole basis of whether something is morally sound or not, but there's no real reason that hurting people is wrong. Sadness is not an inherently bad thing. We just perceive it to be so. Is the very existence of the universe a good thing? What even is "good" and "bad"? Again, they are simply human concepts to describe things that we are predisposed by instincts given to us through natural selection to find beneficial or detrimental to our survival.

With that being said, generally if you're stating your opinion, it's on a subjective matter, so facts are kind of pointless in such a case. If someone said "School Days is the best, and Grave of the Fireflies is the worst", obviously they'd be trolling, but if they were serious, then to them, they aren't wrong. To call an opinion "correct" is to show a lack of understanding of what the concept of an opinion is.



It's funny that, in some manner or another, I've been told that I don't understand what an opinion is, and yet not been told what it is. It's akin to laughing at a kid who doesn't understand algebra -- just teach the damn kid so he does. In fact, it's even easier this time, since all I need to stave off ignorance is a definition.

You've all given examples of opinions -- treating me as a master sleuth of language, who's supposed to be able to intimate the answer from all the clues before him. But you know what? I'm not quite as clever as the guys in those books. I can guess at what you mean by opinion, and come up with a few theories based on the given suspects, but I can't quite work out the one answer from the evidence in front of me.

So, if you could be so kind as to skip to the last couple of chapters where we find out who the killer is, I'd be much obliged. I'm sure it'll be one of those "aha!" reveals, and I'll think "he was there the whole time!" but for now, I can't quite figure it out. I've taken the metaphor as far as I can though. Please just tell me what an opinion is, so I can go ahead and make some sense of these posts.
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