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"That's just your opinion!"
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Posted 9/24/13


You beat me to it
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Posted 9/24/13
Well you can't really argue with them if it's the matter of taste (TL;DR sorry)

but I really hate it when I'm having an ethics argument with someone and their conclusion
doesn't emulate the premises. It might be your opinion but your opinion is logically flawed.
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Posted 9/24/13

kamaitachi5587 wrote:

But, 10+10=4.......

PS You're a nerd if you get it.


Pfft! Binarist.

Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

kamaitachi5587 wrote:

But, 10+10=4.......

PS You're a nerd if you get it.


Base 2, binary ;o

100 base 2

[edit] booo o3o I got it second
--------------------

There are good arguments, there are bad arguments, then there are online arguments

also "in my opinion" is a good block, however "Obama is white, imo" probably could be argued
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Posted 9/24/13
Kinda like liberals. They always use that when conservatives serve them FACTS.
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36 / M / ICQ / Skype (ask)
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Posted 9/24/13
You have always to establish a second line of defense in discussions, because when that "Thats only our opinion" bombshell hits, you have to be prepared to not look like a total baloon filled with hot air
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

theYchromosome wrote:


BearSol wrote:

Sorry, but you're wrong. I don't think you fully understand the use and meaning of these words.


Which words? I used a lot of them. Just "fact," "opinion," and "idea"?


You just answered your own question of which words but quoting me explaining the words in question to you below.


theYchromosome


BearSol

Only a fact can be right or wrong as it's a matter of certainty. Ideas are up for debate as they have not been proven. Opinions are derived from personal preferences and view points particular to individuals.

Opinions can be stupid, absurd, brilliant or inspiring but they can't be right or wrong because they're subjective and not concrete. They're what you want them to be.
Facts are either right or wrong, they're not subjective. It is or it isn't, there's no grey area where it depends on the view of the person in question. You don't have a choice in the matter, it is what it is.


I hope this helps clear your confusion.


I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by fact. From what I can glean from your post, you define a fact as "anything that's certain", an idea as "something that hasn't been proven", and an opinion as "a personal preference or viewpoint of an individual." Is that accurate?


I'll reiterate; A fact is something that actually exists in reality, a truth. It must be known by actual experience or observation to exist or have happened.

Here's Webster-Merriam's definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact

As for opinions, like I said before it's a belief or judgment with insufficient knowledge to give one complete certainty. It's a personal view or feeling about something.

Here's the actual definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
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Posted 9/24/13
my opinion is betta than yers
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Posted 9/24/13

Oldthrashbar wrote:

Kinda like liberals. They always use that when conservatives serve them FACTS.


Like O'Reilly! That Liberal is always saying, "Well, that's your opinion," when people are serving him FACTS.

Do you have to turn everything into an attack against your opposing political party? They all do the same thing, conservative or liberal. Calling one side out on something both sides do only shows blind contempt on your part.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

BearSol wrote:


theYchromosome


BearSol

Only a fact can be right or wrong as it's a matter of certainty. Ideas are up for debate as they have not been proven. Opinions are derived from personal preferences and view points particular to individuals.

Opinions can be stupid, absurd, brilliant or inspiring but they can't be right or wrong because they're subjective and not concrete. They're what you want them to be.
Facts are either right or wrong, they're not subjective. It is or it isn't, there's no grey area where it depends on the view of the person in question. You don't have a choice in the matter, it is what it is.


I hope this helps clear your confusion.


I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by fact. From what I can glean from your post, you define a fact as "anything that's certain", an idea as "something that hasn't been proven", and an opinion as "a personal preference or viewpoint of an individual." Is that accurate?


I'll reiterate; A fact is something that actually exists in reality, a truth. It must be known by actual experience or observation to exist or have happened.

Here's Webster-Merriam's definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact

As for opinions, like I said before it's a belief or judgment with insufficient knowledge to give one complete certainty. It's a personal view or feeling about something.

Here's the actual definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion


I see. So to be sure I understand then, when you talk about opinions, you're talking about statements like "Europe exists" and "the moon revolves around the earth." I've never experienced or observed Europe's existence, and obviously the fact that everyone tells me it exists can't be taken for truth, which means that as something that I have insufficient knowledge to gain complete certainty, I can only take the personal view that it exists. The moon could very well disappear every time it reaches the other side of the earth, so again, it's not something I can claim is factual. Again, I'd like to ask, like your first post, that you give an example of a "proven fact" that doesn't qualify as an opinion.

[portion deleted in edit for relevance and inaccuracy]

But I still don't see where I'm wrong in my original post. Surely then, by the definitions you've given, facts can't be right or wrong. They are simply observed things that exist in reality. Is "chicken" wrong? Is "grass" correct? Surely, we can only evaluate statements and concepts for validity -- "Chicken exists," or "grass is green". Only viewpoints, judgements, and claims can be right or wrong, which leads me to my next point.

If you have a belief or judgement regarding something, even if you are uncertain of it's truth, does that mean that the truth doesn't exist? If I judge, based on the fact that I hear cheering and a television sports broadcaster through the walls of my apartment, that people are watching a sports game, isn't that either right or wrong? It's clear that I have insufficient knowledge to be certain that people are watching sports, but my personal view/feeling is that they are. Now, on the basis that this viewpoint qualifies as an opinion, how is it the case that I cannot be right or wrong about whether or not people are watching sports? Either they are, or they are not, and my opinion that they are is either right or wrong. Do you disagree?
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Posted 9/24/13
You asked for a definition; here is one.

Opinion: "In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be objectively proven to have occurred. An example is: "America was involved in the Vietnam War" versus "America was right to get involved in the Vietnam War". An opinion may be supported by facts, in which case it becomes an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments. In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact."

I'll throw in one for fact and belief as well just to cover all bases.

Fact: "A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments."

Belief: "Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture (a proposition that is unproven) or premise (an argument which claims to justify a conclusion) to be true."

Don't make me come back here to spoon feed you more.
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Posted 9/24/13

theYchromosome wrote:
Please just tell me what an opinion is, so I can go ahead and make some sense of these posts.


An opinion is what you think about something that does not have a factually correct answer. It is what you think about something that is subjective.
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Posted 9/24/13
Was going to try explaining logic, reasoning, rationale, fact, opinion, etc. to the OP and gave up after I read

I've never experienced or observed Europe's existence, and obviously the fact that everyone tells me it exists can't be taken for truth, which means that as something that I have insufficient knowledge to gain complete certainty, I can only take the personal view that it exists. The moon could very well disappear every time it reaches the other side of the earth, so again, it's not something I can claim is factual


The universe doesn't revolve around you, things exist regardless of your perspective, knowledge, beliefs, etc. There is so much I want to say but OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't want to get banned.

If you ever don't know whether something is a fact or not take the logical negative of it and if that statement and the original statement can be rationalized then you are seeing an opinion. If not, then the statement is not an opinion.

For example Europe exists, logical negative = Europe does not exist:
Europe cannot exist and simultaneously not exist, therefore the statement 'Europe exists' is not an opinion.

Also Rationale =/= Logic, logical argument =/= argument (everyday dialect), formal logic =/= logic (everyday dialect), Europe exists = I think Europe exists. I recommend reading some logic and reasoning books because it sounds to me like most of the causes of your 'wanting to commit mass genocide' etc. stems from confused thinking, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge of rationale vs logic.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

MacMeaties wrote:

You asked for a definition; here is one.

Opinion: "In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be objectively proven to have occurred. An example is: "America was involved in the Vietnam War" versus "America was right to get involved in the Vietnam War". An opinion may be supported by facts, in which case it becomes an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments. In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact."

I'll throw in one for fact and belief as well just to cover all bases.

Fact: "A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments."

Belief: "Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture (a proposition that is unproven) or premise (an argument which claims to justify a conclusion) to be true."


Thanks. Your post has the advantage of a definition, but you're in the rather peculiar position of not having a stance. Since there's nothing to debate in this case, I'll just rework a short summary of my OP with the new definition. Here goes:

With the exception of the first sentence, I posit that every clause or statement in the paragraph is not "definitive" of opinion. The second sentence tells us the difference between fact and opinion, but doesn't add any new information to the definition. The next two sentences tell us what "may be" or is "rarely" the case, but if it is not always the case, then it's not definitive. The couple of sentences afterward give criteria and technique for choosing a "good" opinion, but also don't provide any new parameters on what an opinion is.

Since I only want to show that opinions are all subject to logical argument, and therefore are either right or wrong, I actually don't even need to deal with facts (unless you have something to say about facts -- but you don't have a stance yet). So, the only thing we need to look at is the first sentence. "an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain." I find it odd that Wikipedia treats "subjectivity" as a synonym for "uncertainty," but luckily, they've done us the favor of defining subjectivity as "something that is less than certain." Thus, an equivalent definition is "A judgment, viewpoint, or statement, based on things that are not certain."

Since a person's certainty of the truth makes no difference to the truth, I argue that as far as evaluation of the truth is concerned, we need only look at the judgment, viewpoint, or statement itself. Finally, I argue that by their definitions, any judgments, viewpoints, and statements make some assertion on the the state of the world. Thus, by the rules for creating logical structures, we are able to place the assertion into a logical construct, and since truth functions only have true or false outputs, the assertion can only be true or false.


Don't make me come back here to spoon feed you more.


That's up to you.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

deli8079 wrote:


The universe doesn't revolve around you, things exist regardless of your perspective, knowledge, beliefs, etc. There is so much I want to say but OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't want to get banned.


I completely, absolutely, positively, certainly agree with you. However, when someone uses the word "certainty" in a definition, then it must be included in any analysis of the word. I agree with you -- I defined a fact as "a statement on the state of the world" specifically because I wanted to leave that argument out of the picture. No matter how I look at it, people regard the statement "Europe exists" as a fact. We can't be certain of it, but it is necessarily a statement of fact. Thus, the definition of an "opinion," or a "fact" for that matter, cannot contain a requirement of certainty, because our certainty is regardless of truth. That was my only point. I found the definition lacking, but since he gave it, I would use it. I regard "Europe exists" as a fact, but based on the definition I was given, it didn't seem to be that way.


If you ever don't know whether something is a fact or not take the logical negative of it and if that statement and the original statement can be rationalized then you are seeing an opinion. If not, then the statement is not an opinion.

For example Europe exists, logical negative = Europe does not exist:
Europe cannot exist and simultaneously not exist, therefore the statement 'Europe exists' is not an opinion.


Sorry, so you're defining an opinion as any claim that makes a logical contradiction possible? I've not heard that before. Interesting. But let me propose this as an example of something that's commonly treated as an opinion:

Blue is the best color, logical negative = blue is not the best color:
Blue cannot be simultaneously the best color and not the best color, therefore the statement "Blue is the best color" is not an opinion.

The way I define "rationalize" would say that someone could rationalize that some people might think blue is the best, and some people might not. Thus, we have that blue is simultaneously the best and not the best. However, I hold that it simply means some or all of those people are wrong. If "the best color" is defined as the color most people call their favorite, then there's no problem. If "the best color" is defined as the color that everyone likes, then the statement is false, because not everyone likes it. I argue that any "rationalization" is an abuse of unclear definitions. So long as the criteria is defined and understood, it is verifiable.



Also Rationale =/= Logic, logical argument =/= argument (everyday dialect), formal logic =/= logic (everyday dialect), Europe exists = I think Europe exists. I recommend reading some logic and reasoning books because it sounds to me like most of the causes of your 'wanting to commit mass genocide' etc. stems from confused thinking, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge of rationale vs logic.


Agreed, but having read quite a few works by logicians, I should guess that if I still don't get it, then I'm probably hopeless, and reading a few more wouldn't help much. However, as a Math major, I've worked on a lot of proofs, and my former professors seemed to think I had a pretty good head for logic. But they could have been wrong. Could you tell me where I'm at fault? Would you mind going ahead with your arguments? I may not be the only person who would benefit, and I'd actually value the experience if you could show that I'm wrong -- I've always wanted to have a foolproof defense like "that's just your opinion" in my bag of tricks.
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