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"That's just your opinion!"
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Posted 9/24/13

Doomedfox wrote:

Stopped reading at "Opinions are always either right or wrong" till than i was interested in what you had to say but at that point i realized it would be a waste of my time to read on.


Same here. It doesn't work for so many statements like blue is a better color than green. How do you argue that this statement is right or wrong because all you are using is your opinion as justification.
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Posted 9/24/13

Pixywing wrote:


Doomedfox wrote:

Stopped reading at "Opinions are always either right or wrong" till than i was interested in what you had to say but at that point i realized it would be a waste of my time to read on.


Same here. It doesn't work for so many statements like blue is a better color than green. How do you argue that this statement is right or wrong because all you are using is your opinion as justification.


Um, it's entirely possible that I'm mistaken and you have some good counterpoints. But if you actually would decide to read on, I specifically addressed the statement "blue is the best color." Maybe I was wrong, but I did address it. If you're curious, you might give it a read.
Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

I read the start part and the endiing, im not trying to be rude,
what you say makes sense, but im quite the dumb one and i have a short attention span.

My reason is, we are lazy beings at the end of the day to some point and we are probably wanting peace more than we think.

To an extent we end up relying on someone else's opinion which makes the most sense and comes across harmless, hey why pick up a fight if someones won over everyone else with whatever proof they have brought up?


I shall let u in on a secret ^_~


In my opinion though, I love the colour yellow,
it makes me all tingly and happy< well idk if its a fact if it does that or not,
but to be lazy i think the word happy is the feeling i feel, so its a fact at times it makes me feel that way.

My bro being colour blind tells me red looks like brown,
Yellow looks green? whats the green he sees in his eyes? does he even see the brown i see?
Blue is best to him... idk what im saying anymore. xx


Sorry i wrote in chunks, i dint intend to.




v Agreed on the bordum part, but there is no argument... where? where?

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Posted 9/24/13
I come back to this thread and this is all I see



Arguing for the sake of arguing, y'all more bored than I am.
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Posted 9/24/13

hyjinx17 wrote:

Sigh ok you do realize that saying "I think 2+2=4" isn't an opinion in and of itself right? 2+2=4 is a fact put in place by the practice of mathematics. Within Mathematics, 2+2=4 every time. Putting "I think" in front of it does not make that an opinion, you've just added two useless words to the fact of "2+2=4" You can't dispute this because despite what words you use, the number of objects is the same. In your version of mathematics maybe the amount "two" is called "three". Or 2+2=fish. Fish in this example represents the same amount as four, you've just given it a different word to represent that number, but no matter what you call it Two is two and four is four. This is undisputed fact.


True in mathematics, but 2+2 can = 5 in physics.

How? Well, 2+2=5 for extremely large values of 2.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

theYchromosome wrote:


deli8079 wrote:


The universe doesn't revolve around you, things exist regardless of your perspective, knowledge, beliefs, etc. There is so much I want to say but OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't want to get banned.


I completely, absolutely, positively, certainly agree with you. However, when someone uses the word "certainty" in a definition, then it must be included in any analysis of the word. I agree with you -- I defined a fact as "a statement on the state of the world" specifically because I wanted to leave that argument out of the picture. No matter how I look at it, people regard the statement "Europe exists" as a fact. We can't be certain of it, but it is necessarily a statement of fact. Thus, the definition of an "opinion," or a "fact" for that matter, cannot contain a requirement of certainty, because our certainty is regardless of truth. That was my only point. I found the definition lacking, but since he gave it, I would use it. I regard "Europe exists" as a fact, but based on the definition I was given, it didn't seem to be that way.


If you ever don't know whether something is a fact or not take the logical negative of it and if that statement and the original statement can be rationalized then you are seeing an opinion. If not, then the statement is not an opinion.

For example Europe exists, logical negative = Europe does not exist:
Europe cannot exist and simultaneously not exist, therefore the statement 'Europe exists' is not an opinion.


Sorry, so you're defining an opinion as any claim that makes a logical contradiction possible? I've not heard that before. Interesting. But let me propose this as an example of something that's commonly treated as an opinion:

Blue is the best color, logical negative = blue is not the best color:
Blue cannot be simultaneously the best color and not the best color, therefore the statement "Blue is the best color" is not an opinion.

The way I define "rationalize" would say that someone could rationalize that some people might think blue is the best, and some people might not. Thus, we have that blue is simultaneously the best and not the best. However, I hold that it simply means some or all of those people are wrong. If "the best color" is defined as the color most people call their favorite, then there's no problem. If "the best color" is defined as the color that everyone likes, then the statement is false, because not everyone likes it. I argue that any "rationalization" is an abuse of unclear definitions. So long as the criteria is defined and understood, it is verifiable.



Also Rationale =/= Logic, logical argument =/= argument (everyday dialect), formal logic =/= logic (everyday dialect), Europe exists = I think Europe exists. I recommend reading some logic and reasoning books because it sounds to me like most of the causes of your 'wanting to commit mass genocide' etc. stems from confused thinking, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge of rationale vs logic.


Agreed, but having read quite a few works by logicians, I should guess that if I still don't get it, then I'm probably hopeless, and reading a few more wouldn't help much. However, as a Math major, I've worked on a lot of proofs, and my former professors seemed to think I had a pretty good head for logic. But they could have been wrong. Could you tell me where I'm at fault? Would you mind going ahead with your arguments? I may not be the only person who would benefit, and I'd actually value the experience if you could show that I'm wrong -- I've always wanted to have a foolproof defense like "that's just your opinion" in my bag of tricks.


Lol, its like you simultaneously do and don't understand my post. Anyway to answer your qustions:
"So you're defining an opinion as any claim that makes a logical contradiction possible?" No, I'm saying that the statement and the logical negative of the statement is an opinion if both can be rationalized, big difference. Since your a math person you should see it being a specific subset of all types of opinions.

"Blue is the best color, logical negative = blue is not the best color:
Blue cannot be simultaneously the best color and not the best color, therefore the statement "Blue is the best color" is not an opinion."
This is an opinion because 'blue is the best color' can be rationalized as well as 'blue is the worst color'. I can say blue is the best color because it has a strong calming effect or I could say blue is the worst color because it is too bright and bland. When you rationalize you give a reason for something, that is literally all rationalization is; similar to logical thinking but not bound by logical thinking.

"The way I define "rationalize" would say that someone could rationalize that some people might think blue is the best, and some people might not " Yes, people can rationalize either way and come to different conclusions. As long as they can come up with a reason for their conclusion it is rationalized.

"Agreed, but having read quite a few works by logicians, I should guess that if I still don't get it, then I'm probably hopeless, and reading a few more wouldn't help much." I feel like the problem might be more that you aren't receptive to the way a book might present logic; while not necessarily a bad thing, you need to accept the generally understood and agreed upon definitions regarding argument and logic in order to better discuss with others. I'm sure it would help to read more, but if you don't accept the premise that a book tries to present to you, then it'll never be more than a waste.

"However, as a Math major, I've worked on a lot of proofs, and my former professors seemed to think I had a pretty good head for logic. But they could have been wrong. Could you tell me where I'm at fault? Would you mind going ahead with your arguments?" As I said in my earlier post you are confusing too many things together. logical proofs in regards to math =/= logical form proofs (in general). There is much in common, but they are still not the same thing. Whereas math concerns the correctness of the proccess or conclusions, logical forms in general are only concerned with whether it is logical to state propositions (loose generalized definitions, but the definition itself is not important, just know that they are different).

Your statement that opinions are either right or wrong does not logically follow because right and wrong most closely concern facts. Facts can be ' right' or 'wrong' because facts imply a sort of metric which can be checked as either right or wrong. Consider "1 + 1" therefore "2". Regardless of what the symbols mean, that proposition can either be true or false; here all we are trying to say is that the proposition (1+1) implies the conclusion (2). That implication can either be right or wrong meaning the 'fact' that 1+1=2 can be right or wrong. notice that it is the IMPLICATION that is either right or wrong and not exactly the value 2 or 1+1. Those don't have any truth value at all you can't logically say, "2 is true" that makes no sense because you are giving a conclusion without a proposition. When people give their opinions it is just the conclusion of their rationale. "rationale" therefore "opinion". That is the same exact logical form as before and again, the opinion has no inherent value. So if I say I like the color blue, the 'opinion' has no truth value; you can't say that the opinion is true or false. You could say that the fact I like the color blue is true; but this is all just rhetoric, and people do not talk using formal logic, definitions, etc. So unless they are speaking/writing formally it makes no sense to be literal towards what people say. I'll use it ironically and say, "You know what I mean."
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Posted 9/24/13
I'm all up for the occasional civilized debate, as I try to avoid egocentricity. But ya'll are talking about opinions and truths in the same thread...yeah...that's all I'm gonna' say...

Back to anime!
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Posted 9/24/13

shopping_for_noobs wrote:

I'm all up for the occasional civilized debate, as I try to avoid egocentricity. But ya'll are talking about opinions and truths in the same thread...yeah...that's all I'm gonna' say...

Back to anime!


Haha, I am glad you realize how ridiculous this thread is. I hope I am just being trolled super hard.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13
All I could think of after reading a bunch of this is 1984 because of the whole 2+2=4/5 thing.

This is the first forum post I have actually read, and I happen to like it. You are amusing and I find this topic actually worth taking the time to read these lenthy posts, so I like you guys. ,D
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Posted 9/24/13

pandrasb wrote:


kamaitachi5587 wrote:

But, 10+10=4.......

PS You're a nerd if you get it.


Base 2, binary ;o

100 base 2

[edit] booo o3o I got it second
--------------------

There are good arguments, there are bad arguments, then there are online arguments

also "in my opinion" is a good block, however "Obama is white, imo" probably could be argued


How about Michael Jackson was Black??

Fact? or Opinion?
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Posted 9/24/13

kamaitachi5587 wrote:


pandrasb wrote:


kamaitachi5587 wrote:

But, 10+10=4.......

PS You're a nerd if you get it.


Base 2, binary ;o

100 base 2

[edit] booo o3o I got it second
--------------------

There are good arguments, there are bad arguments, then there are online arguments

also "in my opinion" is a good block, however "Obama is white, imo" probably could be argued


How about Michael Jackson was Black??

Fact? or Opinion?


Clearly an opinion. He was primarily white.(when he died, not that a time frame was specified)
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Posted 9/24/13

Oldthrashbar wrote:

Kinda like liberals. They always use that when conservatives serve them FACTS.




Oddly enough, it's a fact that liberals *are* conservatives.
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Posted 9/24/13 , edited 9/24/13

SDragon17 wrote:


kamaitachi5587 wrote:


pandrasb wrote:


kamaitachi5587 wrote:

But, 10+10=4.......

PS You're a nerd if you get it.


Base 2, binary ;o

100 base 2

[edit] booo o3o I got it second
--------------------

There are good arguments, there are bad arguments, then there are online arguments

also "in my opinion" is a good block, however "Obama is white, imo" probably could be argued


How about Michael Jackson was Black??

Fact? or Opinion?


Clearly an opinion. He was primarily white.(when he died, not that a time frame was specified)


I'm a argue that Michael Jackson was an alien at the end, he's still alive somewhere, plotting an invasion...imo
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Posted 9/24/13

SDragon17 wrote:


kamaitachi5587 wrote:

How about Michael Jackson was Black??

Fact? or Opinion?


Clearly an opinion. He was primarily white.(when he died, not that a time frame was specified)
Actually its a fact regardless of whether it was true or false. Both your statement and his are facts. If I said he was a Mexican Alien Hamburger Flavored Milkshake it would also be a fact. Most likely a false fact but a fact nonetheless as there is an objectively true answer for for the question, you just interpreted the question differently. In order for it to be opinion it has to have the potential to have subjectively different true answers, and no objectively true answer, using the exact same understanding of the question asked.

The problem with most arguments on opinion and fact is that most people don't even know what the words mean in the slightest. On top of that people tend to place a strong subjective negative judgement on the relative value of opinions(funnily enough an opinion on opinions) that makes it seem like opinions are a bad thing, and a strong positive value on facts that makes it seem like they are inherently good. The mistake being people think opinions and facts ever cross over and a statement can ever be changed from an opinion to a fact or vice versa by proving something more or less "true". An opinion is always an opinion and a fact is a fact regardless of veracity. They also both have value. Our lives are based on our opinion of things after being presented with facts.

As to the line "That's only your opinion", if anybody ever says that you know that at least one of the parties needs to be slapped upside the head for being stupid. Either the person who it was said to needs to be slapped because they don't realize the difference between facts and opinion and was claiming fact as opinion, the person who said it needs to be slapped because they called a fact an opinion, or the person who said it needs to be slapped for stating the obvious when both people already knew.
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Posted 9/24/13
Epistemology - The study of knowledge

you sound like a relativist
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