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The Wind Rises and Japan being onesided
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Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


staphen wrote:



I disagree. The point is not to single out the movie or to say that Japan shouldn't want it to be shown. Arguing either of those points is 100% straw man, which is practically the definition of missing the point. The movie was presented as an example of Japan's hypocritical behavior with respect to its history.

Back on topic, I've personally never really liked war in my entertainment. I couldn't really care less if they fess up to their war crimes or not, but I did find this discussion to be quite interesting.


I don't think it's a straw man. The OP's point is valid. I don't see taking issue with the tools he uses to present his point as detracting from that point. I also don't see a 100% correlation between this movie and the nation as a whole refusing to look at it's past. If anyone is guilty of logical chicanery it is the OP for linking this movie to his point. That said it's a relatively minor point against the larger issue.

So let me posit this for you:

Do you think that Japan is more revisionist about it's world war II history than say the US, Canada? Germany? Rumania? and if so? what do you think should be done about it?



in Japaness schools WW2 is Pearl Harbor and the Bombing of Japan NOTHING ELSE HAPPEN Not the Bataan death march not the rape of nanking not the use of Korean women as sex slaves, None of that happen. Now what if schools in the USA taught that slavery never happen of the the natives just gave us their land would that be right?

People have to face the bad of it's past as well as the good. Untill Japan does it will never be able to call it's self an honerable countery

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Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13

uncletim wrote:

in Japaness schools WW2 is Pearl Harbor and the Bombing of Japan NOTHING ELSE HAPPEN Not the Bataan death march not the rape of nanking not the use of Korean women as sex slaves, None of that happen. Now what if schools in the USA taught that slavery never happen of the the natives just gave us their land would that be right?



So your answer to my first question is: "Yes! Japan is more revisionist." How about my others? what do you think should be done about it? What do you think CAN be don about it?


Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


staphen wrote:



I disagree. The point is not to single out the movie or to say that Japan shouldn't want it to be shown. Arguing either of those points is 100% straw man, which is practically the definition of missing the point. The movie was presented as an example of Japan's hypocritical behavior with respect to its history.

Back on topic, I've personally never really liked war in my entertainment. I couldn't really care less if they fess up to their war crimes or not, but I did find this discussion to be quite interesting.


I don't think it's a straw man. The OP's point is valid. I don't see taking issue with the tools he uses to present his point as detracting from that point. I also don't see a 100% correlation between this movie and the nation as a whole refusing to look at it's past. If anyone is guilty of logical chicanery it is the OP for linking this movie to his point. That said it's a relatively minor point against the larger issue.

So let me posit this for you:

Do you think that Japan is more revisionist about it's world war II history than say the US, Canada? Germany? Rumania? and if so? what do you think should be done about it?




No, like I've stated: the problem is not the movie itself nor the story it tells. I stated in my post that I like historical movies regardless of whether the film shows the "good" side or "bad" side.

The reason I used the movie in this discussion is because it is a great example to point out how unfair it is that Japan is fine with letting this movie (which does have ties Japan's side of the military during WW2) be shown globally, but still refuses to let movies depicting their own war crimes be shown in their country.

It is not the movie itself, but rather what it represents in terms of what Japan wants to be known, and what it wants to remain hidden.

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Posted 9/26/13
oops caught me before the edit.

Honestly nothing we can do it's up to the japaness to face their past and remember the old saying "Those who fail to learn from the history are doomed to repeat it"
Posted 9/26/13

bensonc120 wrote:

I love Japan, but as a nation and as a people I question some of their choices. They do need to just apologize and educate their youth on the war crimes they committed. They just have too much pride, but I think as the old timers die off hopefully the new generation will gradually do things differently. Not to bash Japan since I see this same type of backwards mentality in Americans and the Chinese as well. That's why I think nationalism and "patriotism" is vastly overrated. I like being neutral and being able to see faults and good of everyone, regardless of national or political affiliations.


puellapeanut wrote:
You missed the point.

The point was that Japan is eager for this movie to be released, but won't show any movies concerning what they did to others in the war in their own country.

And Disney's made movies dealing with racism before, though of course their older cartoons were racist as well!


Actually you missed the point. While I agree the Japan as a nation is at fault for not being transparent about their past, you are singling out this children's film unfairly. Studio Ghibli and Miyazaki have nothing to do with war crimes or the cover up of war crimes. It's not their fault for wanting their film to be shown.


Like I stated in a post to another user:

The reason I used the movie in this discussion is because it is a great example to point out how unfair it is that Japan is fine with letting this movie (which does have ties Japan's side of the military during WW2) be shown globally, but still refuses to let movies depicting their own war crimes be shown in their country.

It is not the movie itself, but rather what it represents in terms of what Japan wants to be known, and what it wants to remain hidden.
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Posted 9/26/13

puellapeanut wrote:


No, like I've stated: the problem is not the movie itself nor the story it tells. I stated in my post that I like historical movies regardless of whether the film shows the "good" side or "bad" side.

The reason I used the movie in this discussion is because it is a great example to point out how unfair it is that Japan is fine with letting this movie (which does have ties Japan's side of the military during WW2) be shown globally, but still refuses to let movies depicting their own war crimes be shown in their country.

It is not the movie itself, but rather what it represents in terms of what Japan wants to be known, and what it wants to remain hidden.



I'm begining to think it was wrong to bring it up. Let me be more clear, I think arguing about the movie you used is a distraction at best from the main point. And I apologise for addressing it.

The more important point is Japanese revisionism. Again do you think it's better or worse than what other countries do with their histories? and if worse what should/can we do about it?

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Posted 9/26/13

uncletim wrote:

I think the problem is at the end of WW2 the allies forced the german people to go in the camps and bury the dead in them as a way of showing them the evil that was done in their name. They never force the Japaness the same way so to this day most japaness will never admit they did anything wrong



That's quite a blanket statement. How many Japanese do you know personally? I've lived in Japan and actually my grandfather is from Japan and you'd be surprised how informed people are. Every single Japanese person I know feel that Japan was wrong in committing war crimes, even though the number is probably less than 30 so the sample size is small. I'm interested in finding out how many Japanese you know personally that you can make such a blanket statement.

"Official government" positions are not necessarily reflective of how the people, the citizens, feel. For example, US government officially apologized for Japanese American internment but that doesn't mean there aren't people who don't feel any remorse,eh? Just because the Japanese government has not officially apologized, there is a very vocal left leaning political party and section of citizens who feel strongly against the war crimes that their government committed. It's not very smart to generalize, quite ignorant actually.
Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


puellapeanut wrote:


No, like I've stated: the problem is not the movie itself nor the story it tells. I stated in my post that I like historical movies regardless of whether the film shows the "good" side or "bad" side.

The reason I used the movie in this discussion is because it is a great example to point out how unfair it is that Japan is fine with letting this movie (which does have ties Japan's side of the military during WW2) be shown globally, but still refuses to let movies depicting their own war crimes be shown in their country.

It is not the movie itself, but rather what it represents in terms of what Japan wants to be known, and what it wants to remain hidden.



I'm begining to think it was wrong to bring it up. Let me be more clear, I think arguing about the movie you used is a distraction at best from the main point. And I apologise for addressing it.

The more important point is Japanese revisionism. Again do you think it's better or worse than what other countries do with their histories? and if worse what should/can we do about it?



In terms of the revisionism, you yourself made an excellent comment on another reply: Still. the level of Japan's... revisionism... for the events of WWII is exceptional for a free country. Now if I were comparing it to Stalin's Soviet Union or China or North Korea. maybe not so much. but... They're not free countries.

Every single country hides things from their own people and the world to some degree. Some more than others, some less. Japan is most certainly more, and the sheer number of things they downplay/hide, don't teach/deny is incredible coming from a free country. It ranks high among the worst of things hidden among countries in general. It is truly sickening.

Again, while all countries most certainly do not broadcast all their wrongdoings to their own people or to the world, the information is still there, and still available and generally known, if not well known. In Japan, the information is either non-existent, made nothing of, or just completely and utterly denied.

The only thing that can be done about it is be honest and teach it in high schools/uni's in Japan. And some mention of it should be taught in schools outside of Japan. It is not fair that the Holocaust is so well known and taught, and Germany's crimes are known among everyone when Japan's (which in my opinion exceed the cruelty of the Nazis and Soviets) is not touched upon! It's sad that people know of the nuclear bombs and fire-raids, but not of Japan's outrageous cruelty. I mean, the things those soldiers did is just beyond words.

Why, even graduating students with high standing degrees in my country know nothing of what Japan has done, but are able to talk of many things Germany has done, even if only recollecting it from their own primary school days.

It all comes down to information needing to be widespread, taught, shown and known.
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Posted 9/26/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


The more important point is Japanese revisionism. Again do you think it's better or worse than what other countries do with their histories? and if worse what should/can we do about it?



It's worse compared to the nature of the crimes.

The closest I can think of in the US, for instance, is Neo-confederates insisting that the Antebellum south wasn't so bad for black people, but that's an extremely fringe position in the states these days, and never even comes close to an official position.

As others have said, the Japan thing is more akin to Germans denying the holocaust (which is of course illegal to do in Germany), so it's a bit different than most other places' issues.
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Posted 9/26/13





The more important point is Japanese revisionism. Again do you think it's better or worse than what other countries do with their histories? and if worse what should/can we do about it?



If it's true that Japan doesn't allow for films depicting them negatively to be shown in their theaters, then yes they are more revisionist than most. Of course I wouldn't go too far in condemning the Japanese people for things their government is doing. Do you really think there would be a great clamor for a movie based on war crimes in Japan, it probably wouldn't be watched to begin with. If you think about it, if you were a parent and you were given the choice between your child being thought the bare bones about WWII or the teachers going into detail about the atrocities committed during WWII by these kids very own grandparents. Keep in mind that Japan unlike America is still a country where respect for ones elders and ancestors is a big part of the culture. We are thinking about this in the abstract, should Japan be more open about war crimes, yes, but at the same time, how easy realistically is it to expect that people would choose to teach their children that their grandparents might have been involved in such atrocities? If the government chooses not to have the war crimes taught, I don't think that people will be fighting for it to be taught. In some places in the South (Texas) here in America they are trying to change textbooks to refer to the slave trade as the triangle trade, because referring to it as the slave trade supposedly leads to tension between white and black students. Now no one in America has a relative or can remember a relative who was a slave or a slave master, but in Japan they are talking about relatives.

Has for the second part of the question, I don't think much can be done about it, unless there is some huge ground swell by the Japanese people or more likely some radical college professors, it will only get harder to undo the revisionism as WWII becomes just another war in the past. Still I don't think that Japan is blocking the internet from displaying information on war crimes and I don't think it's blocking people from buying movies online so if someone wanted to learn they could.

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Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13
You have to remember that some of the issues which take still take place between China, both korea's and Japan still have to do with the WW2 crimes and run deep. Japan has not formally apologized like Germany has. In Germany, any thing that has slightly any meaning or tie to the Nazi party or like wise is considered illegal and greatly looked down upon. But in Japan, you still have high political members making pilgrimages to "war hero" shrines from WW2. Actions like that do not bode well with Korea and especially China. Were-as with Germany Nazi party officials and officers were tried in court and punished after the war, you won't see an elaborate shrine to the Waffen SS who died caring out one of the Reichs orders. Its sad how even 60 years or so later that what happened during WW2 is still an issue. In Japan joining the JDSF ( Japanese Self-Defense Forces) isn't really looked upon as well as joining the military is in other nations, as the nation is aware of what happened in the past. It defiantly isn't a nation run by the military anymore. It may take awhile if ever for Japan to admit its war crimes like Germany has. Until that happens though there will continue to be some tension, especially since Japan is trying to militarize again due to tension with China. It's never easy for one to admit when they are wrong.
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Posted 9/26/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:
I'm begining to think it was wrong to bring it up. Let me be more clear, I think arguing about the movie you used is a distraction at best from the main point. And I apologise for addressing it.

The more important point is Japanese revisionism. Again do you think it's better or worse than what other countries do with their histories? and if worse what should/can we do about it?


As someone who have spent time in China, Taiwan, Japan, and USA I will say the every country has their share of ignorance and blind patriotism. You would think USA the most progressive but if I criticize our policies or history people still get defensive and a common response is get out of this country if you don't like something about it. All the older generation Chinese people hate Japanese people for the war crimes, but are in denial themselves about all the atrocities committed by the Chinese government on its own people as well as on other nations, especially the border nations.

To answer your question, it will be very difficult to fix this. People naturally do not like to be criticized, especially by outsiders. From personal experiences, I know Chinese Americans who fume whenever they hear US government officially criticize China for things such as pollution, human rights violations, etc. and it's just ridiculous how defensive they get. I know people who get offended when foreigners criticize US policies but don't get as offended if the same criticism came from a fellow American. People just need to have a thicker skin when their country is being criticized. Don't be blinded by patriotism, instead just swallow the pride and apologize for mistakes. Easier said than done tho.
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Posted 9/26/13
Another issue I think is the concept of Face.

I think this complicates any talk of truth vs. revisionism in just about any Asian country but it seems to be a particularly powerful issue in Japan.
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Posted 9/26/13
Read the book "Japan: Hidden War Crimes" this book was only released not too long ago. Very disturbing things are explained in this book of what the Japanese did to American, British, etc soldiers. Japan is trying to keep this hidden of course, and is why this book is only being released now. Things such as cannibalism and eating the flesh of the soldiers because they were supposedly "demons".
Posted 9/26/13

Dlaxrain wrote:

Read the book "Japan: Hidden War Crimes" this book was only released not too long ago. Very disturbing things are explained in this book of what the Japanese did to American, British, etc soldiers. Japan is trying to keep this hidden of course, and is why this book is only being released now. Things such as cannibalism and eating the flesh of the soldiers because they were supposedly "demons".


Do you mean Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes? Ever read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang?
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