First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next  Last
The Wind Rises and Japan being onesided
26372 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Florida, US
Offline
Posted 9/26/13

puellapeanut wrote:


Dlaxrain wrote:

Read the book "Japan: Hidden War Crimes" this book was only released not too long ago. Very disturbing things are explained in this book of what the Japanese did to American, British, etc soldiers. Japan is trying to keep this hidden of course, and is why this book is only being released now. Things such as cannibalism and eating the flesh of the soldiers because they were supposedly "demons".


Do you mean Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes? Ever read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang?


yes that's what I meant. It was horrifying and just blew my mind. Oh yes I meant to mention the terrible things they did to the Chinese...very sad when I think about those events. I've heard of The Rape of Nanking but haven't had the chance to read it. I might actually look it up..
2868 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M
Offline
Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13

Java2045 wrote:

You have to remember that some of the issues which take still take place between China, both korea's and Japan still have to do with the WW2 crimes and run deep. Japan has not formally apologized like Germany has. In Germany, any thing that has slightly any meaning or tie to the Nazi party or like wise is considered illegal and greatly looked down upon. But in Japan, you still have high political members making pilgrimages to "war hero" shrines from WW2. Actions like that do not bode well with Korea and especially China. Were-as with Germany Nazi party officials and officers were tried in court and punished after the war, you won't see an elaborate shrine to the Waffen SS who died caring out one of the Reichs orders. Its sad how even 60 years or so later that what happened during WW2 is still an issue. In Japan joining the JDSF ( Japanese Self-Defense Forces) isn't really looked upon as well as joining the military is in other nations, as the nation is aware of what happened in the past. It defiantly isn't a nation run by the military anymore. It may take awhile if ever for Japan to admit its war crimes like Germany has. Until that happens though there will continue to be some tension, especially since Japan is trying to militarize again due to tension with China. It's never easy for one to admit when they are wrong.



I do wonder how much the German law of outlawing Nazi symbolism is left over from laws and regulations forced upon Germany by the Allies at the end of the war. The allies held the Nuremberg trials to punish German war criminals ( at least the ones that couldn't help their military) and I'm sure they would have outlawed Nazi symbols, because early on in the occupation of Germany, there were still Nazi guerillas around, the soldiers didn't all give up when Hitler died. I don't think the same type of actions were taken against Japan. I don't remember any big War Crimes Trial against Japan were they where soldiers were forced to face war crimes on a world stage and then sentenced for them. I also think that America, UK, France, and Russia, who were aware of the Germans had done and to some extent wanted to punish people for the Holocaust and the war, were not aware of what Japan had done in China and Korea to the same extent that they were aware what the Germans had done. Germany was forced by the allies to deal with the Holocaust and had the atrocities committed shown to the world. Japan on the other hand was not forced, because China and Korea did not have the political power to force them to like the Allies did. There is also the fact that even back then the dropping of the Atomic bombs and the level of devastation that it caused was stunning. I think that might be the reason why Japan has not formerly apologized and why they still go to shrines, at the time they were not treated as heavy handed as Germany and were not as vilified as the Nazis were, which meant they did not feel as dire a need to distance themselves. The soldiers were soldiers, they fought for their country and lost the War, but the Japanese soldiers did not automatically become synonymous with evil like the Nazis. As time goes by it becomes harder to apologize, because it is old news and the political stage has changed. China now has enough political power in the world stage to call Japan out and be heard, but many countries see China has also having it's own lengthy list of things to apologize for. Korea on the other hand doesn't really have the clout to force anything out of Japan. So to put it in human terms, if you did something wrong and at the time you did it you kinda got off the hook are you going to willingly apologize for it when you don't have that much to gain from it?

P.S.: sorry for being so long winded, just a long train of thought.

50983 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
41 / M / Oakland, CA
Online
Posted 9/26/13

pewternatural wrote:



I do wonder how much the German law of outlawing Nazi symbolism is left over from laws and regulations forced upon Germany by the Allies at the end of the war. The allies held the Nuremberg trials to punish German war criminals ( at least the ones that couldn't help their military) and I'm sure they would have outlawed Nazi symbols, because early on in the occupation of Germany, there were still Nazi guerillas around, the soldiers didn't all give up when Hitler died. I don't think the same type of actions were taken against Japan. I don't remember any big War Crimes Trial against Japan were they where soldiers were forced to face war crimes on a world stage and then sentenced for them. I also think that America, UK, France, and Russia, who were aware of the Germans had done and to some extent wanted to punish people for the Holocaust and the war, were not aware of what Japan had done in China and Korea to the same extent that they were aware what the Germans had done. Germany was forced by the allies to deal with the Holocaust and had the atrocities committed shown to the world. Japan on the other hand was not forced, because China and Korea did not have the political power to force them to like the Allies did. There is also the fact that even back then the dropping of the Atomic bombs and the level of devastation that it caused was stunning. I think that might be the reason why Japan has not formerly apologized and why they still go to shrines, at the time they were not treated as heavy handed as Germany and were not as vilified as the Nazis were, which meant they did not feel as dire a need to distance themselves. The soldiers were soldiers, they fought for their country and lost the War, but the Japanese soldiers did not automatically become synonymous with evil like the Nazis. As time goes by it becomes harder to apologize, because it is old news and the political stage has changed. China now has enough political power in the world stage to call Japan out and be heard, but many countries see China has also having it's own lengthy list of things to apologize for. Korea on the other hand doesn't really have the clout to force anything out of Japan. So to put it in human terms, if you did something wrong and at the time you did it you kinda got off the hook are you going to willingly apologize for it when you don't have that much to gain from it?



I think this is the key difference. As you say, Germany was FORCED to look directly into the face of their crimes, many of which happened in their own back yards.

In Japan, The US never pushed them on it (I'm not an expert but I'm prone to blame MacArthur for that. He REALLY REALLY wanted to get strong allies vs the commies fast, @($* morals), and the actual crimes were remote from the main Japanese population anyways, which also makes it easier to deny/ignore.

~~

On the last point, it's more complex than that really. The US had nothing to gain from apologizing to the Nisei or to the kingdom of Hawaii, and yet they did both.

Of course it's easier to acknowledge lesser crimes than greater ones so that might be part of it.


~~~~


PS: For the very reasons discussed here, I never watched "Night Raid 1931"... way too high a chance of hideously annoying historical revisionism. That being said how far along is it on a 1-10?
15349 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21
Offline
Posted 9/26/13
I understand were your coming from and you make a good point. They allies, especially America seemed to have been much less harsh on Japan. And no worries, I felt my original response was a bit long winded as well
75430 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
49 / F / Center of the Uni...
Offline
Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13
A sad possibility as well is that while the world was shocked at what Germany did to other Europeans. Perhaps 'the world' (the European and north American world that is) didn't care so much about what the Japanese did to a bunch of 'chinamen'

41848 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
47 / M / Memphis, TN
Offline
Posted 9/26/13

uncletim wrote:


moonhawk81 wrote:

Once upon a time it was common practice amongst most national governments to attempt to "protect" their citizens from the more horrific knowledge of how their wars were fought. The simple, sad truth is that war--like so many other endeavors--is institutionalized cruelty, and that all participants, well, participate. Should Japan apologize on the international stage? It might behoove them. Should Japan make more effort to educate its own people about Japanese atrocities committed during WWII? Given our particular point in history, when WWII veterans of all sides are rapidly dying out, such a policy reversal might be seen as an abandonment and betrayal of their veterans. Just an observation, certainly not a defense. . .


I think the problem is at the end of WW2 the allies forced the german people to go in the camps and bury the dead in them as a way of showing them the evil that was done in their name. They never force the Japaness the same way so to this day most japaness will never admit they did anything wrong



That is an interesting observation. While Eisenhower despised the Germans, MacArthur actually admire Asian culture in general and Japanese culture in particular. Despite instituting sweeping governmental and land ownership changes in Japan, MacArthur was careful to insulate the Emperor from harm or embarrassment. Furthermore, MacArthur never pursued anything like the Nuremberg Trials for members of Japan's military or government, despite evidence of Japanese atrocities--even against US servicemen, particularly in the Philippines. (My own father-in-law, now deceased, was captured and tortured in the Philippines as a prisoner-of-war.) Given that the Japanese were treated much more mildly than the Germans, and that Allied (read: American) reconstruction of Japan began with much more alacrity than that of Germany, it becomes easier to see why many Japanese might believe their country to have been less to blame or at fault than their European Axis allies. After surrender (true, after the horror of the atomic bombs), the Japanese people were certainly treated in milder terms than were their Axis allies, so how could they avoid feeling less at fault?
2868 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
31 / M
Offline
Posted 9/26/13 , edited 9/26/13






On the last point, it's more complex than that really. The US had nothing to gain from apologizing to the Nisei or to the kingdom of Hawaii, and yet they did both.

Of course it's easier to acknowledge lesser crimes than greater ones so that might be part of it.


~~~~




That is true I was being a bit glib when I simplified it. I do think there is a difference from US apologizing to the Nisei and kingdom of Hawaii, mostly because those were internal affairs. Hawaiian people were US citizens so there would have been some internal pressure to appease it's citizens, I don't know how the apology came about, but I'm guessing a Senator or Congressman from the state probably asked for it after having campined on it. It's like how the Clinton pardoned Puerto Rican nationalist who were imprisoned, it made the Democrats to seem to care more about the Latin voting block than the Republicans, it was a political gain for his party. On the other hand the US has been far less forthcoming when it comes to it's activities in other Latin American countries. No apology for the Iran Contras, for supporting the Mano Blanca death squad in El Salvador, the Chilean, Uruguayan, and Bolivian dictators that sent it's own people into concentration camps. I think the US did have something to gain from its apologizing, even if it was just a certain political party and not the country as a whole. By the same token I doubt there is anything to gain internally or externally from any politician in Japan by calling for an apology. (as you can tell I'm a bit Jaded when it comes to politicians so I do freely agree to having a bias against them)







A sad possibility as well is that while the world was shocked at what Germany did to other Europeans. Perhaps 'the world' (the European and north American world that is) didn't care so much about what the Japanese did to a bunch of 'chinamen'




I think their is probably a lot of truth in that. I don't think the US of WWII was that far removed from the US that saw nothing wrong with using forced Chinese labor to build their railroad system. As for England it's relationship with China was adversarial at best, with China being a nation that they had wanted to turn into a colony and had fought them.

Posted 9/27/13

Dlaxrain wrote:


puellapeanut wrote:


Dlaxrain wrote:

Read the book "Japan: Hidden War Crimes" this book was only released not too long ago. Very disturbing things are explained in this book of what the Japanese did to American, British, etc soldiers. Japan is trying to keep this hidden of course, and is why this book is only being released now. Things such as cannibalism and eating the flesh of the soldiers because they were supposedly "demons".


Do you mean Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes? Ever read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang?


yes that's what I meant. It was horrifying and just blew my mind. Oh yes I meant to mention the terrible things they did to the Chinese...very sad when I think about those events. I've heard of The Rape of Nanking but haven't had the chance to read it. I might actually look it up..


You should. It's also horrifying and brutal, but a very interesting read. Of course, there are quite a number of books on the subject, both supporting and denying it.
Posted 9/27/13

windsagio wrote:


pewternatural wrote:



I do wonder how much the German law of outlawing Nazi symbolism is left over from laws and regulations forced upon Germany by the Allies at the end of the war. The allies held the Nuremberg trials to punish German war criminals ( at least the ones that couldn't help their military) and I'm sure they would have outlawed Nazi symbols, because early on in the occupation of Germany, there were still Nazi guerillas around, the soldiers didn't all give up when Hitler died. I don't think the same type of actions were taken against Japan. I don't remember any big War Crimes Trial against Japan were they where soldiers were forced to face war crimes on a world stage and then sentenced for them. I also think that America, UK, France, and Russia, who were aware of the Germans had done and to some extent wanted to punish people for the Holocaust and the war, were not aware of what Japan had done in China and Korea to the same extent that they were aware what the Germans had done. Germany was forced by the allies to deal with the Holocaust and had the atrocities committed shown to the world. Japan on the other hand was not forced, because China and Korea did not have the political power to force them to like the Allies did. There is also the fact that even back then the dropping of the Atomic bombs and the level of devastation that it caused was stunning. I think that might be the reason why Japan has not formerly apologized and why they still go to shrines, at the time they were not treated as heavy handed as Germany and were not as vilified as the Nazis were, which meant they did not feel as dire a need to distance themselves. The soldiers were soldiers, they fought for their country and lost the War, but the Japanese soldiers did not automatically become synonymous with evil like the Nazis. As time goes by it becomes harder to apologize, because it is old news and the political stage has changed. China now has enough political power in the world stage to call Japan out and be heard, but many countries see China has also having it's own lengthy list of things to apologize for. Korea on the other hand doesn't really have the clout to force anything out of Japan. So to put it in human terms, if you did something wrong and at the time you did it you kinda got off the hook are you going to willingly apologize for it when you don't have that much to gain from it?



I think this is the key difference. As you say, Germany was FORCED to look directly into the face of their crimes, many of which happened in their own back yards.

In Japan, The US never pushed them on it (I'm not an expert but I'm prone to blame MacArthur for that. He REALLY REALLY wanted to get strong allies vs the commies fast, @($* morals), and the actual crimes were remote from the main Japanese population anyways, which also makes it easier to deny/ignore.

~~

On the last point, it's more complex than that really. The US had nothing to gain from apologizing to the Nisei or to the kingdom of Hawaii, and yet they did both.

Of course it's easier to acknowledge lesser crimes than greater ones so that might be part of it.


~~~~


PS: For the very reasons discussed here, I never watched "Night Raid 1931"... way too high a chance of hideously annoying historical revisionism. That being said how far along is it on a 1-10?


I've seen several episodes of the anime Night Raid 1931, and it's pretty interesting. It doesn't get overly political from what I recall, and really; it's like a noir mystery with elements of fantasy. I have to continue watching it.
27007 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
23 / F / AUSTRALIA
Offline
Posted 9/27/13
It's always been like that, not only with Japan. Serbia didn't allow Angelina Jolie's movie to be shown in their country either.

75430 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
49 / F / Center of the Uni...
Offline
Posted 9/27/13 , edited 9/27/13

Lenalee1 wrote:

It's always been like that, not only with Japan. Serbia didn't allow Angelina Jolie's movie to be shown in their country either.



A point I made earlier. Turkey has a whole list of things you cannot say about their equivalent of America's George Washington. (Actually I think he's more like all the fathers of the constitution rolled into one)

For that matter, While we may approve, it's also true that on a more general level even 'free' countries limit speach. We have in my country a whole list of things that constitute 'hate speech' and can leave you open to prosecution (or is that persecution?) by a body called the Human Rights Commission. It's not a perfect solution to the conundrum of free speech versus 'not letting people go around oppressing others with their words"

Someone else mentioned that it is Illegal to deny the Holocaust in some countries. I'm of two minds of this. On one hand I've no doubt that the Holocaust deniers are both:

A) In error. The Holocaust DID happen. People operating under the orders of Hitler and Heydrich and Eichman, DID shovel ten million people wholesale into industrial ovens and mass graves (not before harvesting their bodies for gold teeth human hair and other sale-able products. The ultimate expression of monetization )

B) Probably pursuing an Agenda: People don't deny a watershed moment in history like that just because it amuses them. It's safe to assume that most holocaust deniers are either Nazi apologists or someone else with an Axe to grind with the Jews.


That said. I don't like the idea of making it illegal discuss, debate, argue, prove any part of history just because we agree with the status quo.

There is plenty of evidence with which to challenge and confound holocaust deniers. And eventually their ulterior motives get revealed and discredit them. Making it illegal to discuss any moment of history freely makes it hard to point fingers at other cultures and countries that legislate the parts of history that THEY want remembered into place.


Posted 9/27/13
OP you should
75430 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
49 / F / Center of the Uni...
Offline
Posted 9/27/13

-tion wrote:

OP you should


Why?


Posted 9/27/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


-tion wrote:

OP you should


Why?




Because I said so.
75430 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
49 / F / Center of the Uni...
Offline
Posted 9/27/13

-tion wrote:


Because I said so.


Not good enough. Sorry. (at least IMO, Maybe the OP respects/fears you more.)
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.