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Post Reply "Index" and "Railgun" and missed opportunities
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Posted 9/29/13

Girioni wrote:

A lot of your 'missed opportunities' don't make their way into the series until later. With the recent New Testament series being absolutely great. Just wait until the beginning of the 3rd season, it starts right off with some of the hardest hitting parts of the series,
without even having Touma play a part.


I'd argue that the primary missed opportunity is in focusing on very powerful people in epic dealings rather than dealing with the issues around being a person without powers in a society that only values powers.

It's not darkness per se' I want, that can be cliche' as well... it's taking a different, special perspective... a perspective the 'a certain' world makes possible but doesn't really capitalize on.

It's an absolutely amazingly good setting filled with the normal anime tropes.
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Posted 9/29/13
Okay, first of all- is "dark" the only thing you look for in an anime? I understand that it is an enjoyable feature for some, but- come on, if that's what you are concerned about- then either stay away from JC Staff's LN adaptions and stick with Madoka, or wait for Accelerator's manga spin off- if you stay in the Toaru series.
Second- it's an anime. An anime. Not a manga, not a light novel, not a visual novel, and not game. It's an anime. Further more, it's an anime that is actually based on something- not an original one. Plus, it's JC Staff's anime. If you expected any heavy "dark" theme for that, then you really must be desperate.
Having said that, the light novels
do give off more of a dark theme- though not exactly "helpless". But- the main focus is not "helpless against the higher ups" like you said- it is the concepts consequences of the conflicts of Science and Magic.
Same with Railgun, the manga was a bit "darker" than the anime, but that's because- again, it is an anime. Unlike a manga or light novel, it needs the generic feel to grab the mainstream audience. Isn't that (sort of?) what Shakugan no Shana went through (a little?)
And, Touma does have a mysterious super power, but is it really that convenient? The point in giving him that power was to show the readers that even if you an all-powerful ability, it can actually backfire on you in many ways. Yes, there's the "misfortune" and all that, but Touma's power is very unconventional, hard to use, and actually creates more problems for him in battle (and later it's revealed that it can't fully negate large enough powers).
Not only that, but it is used to make you ponder exactly what magic and science are- and if they are really that different.
And I don't know what you're thinking about the Railgun part. Misaka is the third strongest esper in the Science side (well, technically Mugino is stronger, but she has better control over her powers)- but do you see how much she struggles with things Touma could have breezed through? The whole Railgun shows you that even if you are one of the strongests, you really are "helpless".
Getting back to the Index, the same goes for Accelerator. He is actually the number 1, yet did you read how little he could actually do? His case is truly "dark" and "helpless".
Either you haven't read the LNs, or Madoka has just spoiled you.
Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
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Posted 9/29/13
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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13

TripleBakaKimidori wrote:

Okay, first of all- is "dark" the only thing you look for in an anime? I understand that it is an enjoyable feature for some, but- come on, if that's what you are concerned about- then either stay away from JC Staff's LN adaptions and stick with Madoka, or wait for Accelerator's manga spin off- if you stay in the Toaru series.
Second- it's an anime. An anime. Not a manga, not a light novel, not a visual novel, and not game. It's an anime. Further more, it's an anime that is actually based on something- not an original one. Plus, it's JC Staff's anime. If you expected any heavy "dark" theme for that, then you really must be desperate.
Having said that, the light novels
do give off more of a dark theme- though not exactly "helpless". But- the main focus is not "helpless against the higher ups" like you said- it is the concepts consequences of the conflicts of Science and Magic.
Same with Railgun, the manga was a bit "darker" than the anime, but that's because- again, it is an anime. Unlike a manga or light novel, it needs the generic feel to grab the mainstream audience. Isn't that (sort of?) what Shakugan no Shana went through (a little?)
And, Touma does have a mysterious super power, but is it really that convenient? The point in giving him that power was to show the readers that even if you an all-powerful ability, it can actually backfire on you in many ways. Yes, there's the "misfortune" and all that, but Touma's power is very unconventional, hard to use, and actually creates more problems for him in battle (and later it's revealed that it can't fully negate large enough powers).
Not only that, but it is used to make you ponder exactly what magic and science are- and if they are really that different.
And I don't know what you're thinking about the Railgun part. Misaka is the third strongest esper in the Science side (well, technically Mugino is stronger, but she has better control over her powers)- but do you see how much she struggles with things Touma could have breezed through? The whole Railgun shows you that even if you are one of the strongests, you really are "helpless".
Getting back to the Index, the same goes for Accelerator. He is actually the number 1, yet did you read how little he could actually do? His case is truly "dark" and "helpless".
Either you haven't read the LNs, or Madoka has just spoiled you.
Well, that's my opinion, anyway.


Did you read the post RIGHT above where 'dark' wasn't really what I was missing, but rather the entire shift in perspective that could be possible?

I'll repeat though. The strength of the world is the contrast between the subtle/hidden darkness and the bright exterior. Not the darkness itself, but the interesting contrast. The potential in stories is about the unpowered and unappreciated trying to make their way and earn respect in a world that's DESIGNED to slight them.

It could be a totally upbeat story about how someone overcomes the stupid test saying they're level 0 and developing powers anyways, and it would be infinitely more interseting than the by-the-numbers action/adventure we ended up getting. THAT's the story I want to read, about the level 0 without any special Deus ex Machina powers overcoming and thriving despite the system. That would be something interesting and special.

~~~

I heavily disagree about Touma's ability though, it always reads to me as 'they thought they had to give him something because how is he going to get into epic fights without some trump card?'. In a way he might as well be Accelerator in the way he just powers through so many opponents.

Again about Misaka. She's inherently weak character that ended up getting slipped into being a main character because she was popular. All she is in Index, when you get down to it is the sum of her tropes the 'almost perfect super girl that's smart and talented and attractive and brave and moral and WAY out of the main characters league that ends up dependent on him and unable to beat him and in fact totally infatuated with him. The expanded her a LOT for Railgun, but once he enters the picture she's immediately reduced to the simpering little girl or the tsun-tsun again.


(bold because it's important)

The above post reads as really harsh on the series', and I wanna repeat over and over that I enjoyed both Index and Railgun a lot. My complaint is that they could have been something special and different instead and they just went to the standard tropes anime always hit. It's inherent in the plot and it's a pity. AND AGAIN I DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST DARK AND BLEAK.
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Posted 9/29/13
Index > Railgun

That's all that needs to be said.
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Posted 9/29/13


Sakura...you in the wrong neighborhood girl.
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Posted 9/29/13
There is more about darker and important arcs in this thread.This anime(s) ae just starting. So I think some are jumping the gun here!

http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-799257/toaru-kagaku-no-railgun-s-discussions?pg=30
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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13
Madoka by the way seems bleak for bleakness sake, that's not the point :p

edited reply:


FLjerry2011 wrote:

There is more about darker and important arcs in this thread.This anime(s) ae just starting. So I think some are jumping the gun here!

http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-799257/toaru-kagaku-no-railgun-s-discussions?pg=30


Again, what I think they're missing is an entire shift of perspective. Those other arcs just get more and more and more epic, which again is par for the course for ongoing series (as per Dragonball and Bleach and Fairy Tale).

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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13

windsagio wrote:
THAT's the story I want to read, about the level 0 without any special Deus ex Machina powers overcoming and thriving despite the system. That would be something interesting and special.

Hamazura!!!! (wait for Index season 3 and the third Index protagonist to appear)


windsagio wrote:
I heavily disagree about Touma's ability though, it always reads to me as 'they thought they had to give him something because how is he going to get into epic fights without some trump card?'. In a way he might as well be Accelerator in the way he just powers through so many opponents.

I think you and I simply a have a fundamentally different view on Touma's ability. He obviously isn't the same as other Level 0s, but I would say the reason he can beat his opponents is that they underestimate him. Some of his opponents don't make that mistake and can wipe the floor with him (ie Kanzaki).

<EDIT: I should actually append this. He wins some of his fights from his opponents underestimating him or not knowing the best way to deal with Imagine Breaker. But, the author does like to emphasize Touma being creative in his fights, or using his past battle experience. Even so, Touma does still lose occasionally. And when he wins, there's a reason (opponent's underestimation, or his own creativity), and it's not just because his power is a trump card like Accelerator's.>

windsagio wrote:
The expanded her a LOT for Railgun, but once he enters the picture she's immediately reduced to the simpering little girl or the tsun-tsun again.

In Index I agree that Mikoto has a lot more tsundering and less good protagonist portrayal. But she's not an Index protagonist, so I don't have a problem with that. In Railgun, I would argue that she's only been the "simpering little girl" once. And that's after she just spent a week being a "good" protagonist and blowing things up, only to find it was futile. So I don't hold it against her character that she reacts that way at the moment she has just resolved to die and then Touma shows up.
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Yeah I watched the last episode of Railgun S today. My biggest gripe would probably be how rushed the arc felt compared to the sisters arc. Especially the last episode.
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Posted 9/29/13
maybe this is why it's taken me so long to finish Index and move to Railgun...
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Posted 9/29/13

hatguy12 wrote:


Hamazura!!!! (wait for Index season 3 and the third Index protagonist to appear)


You give me faith sir, and I Think you ><



I think you and I simply a have a fundamentally different view on Touma's ability. He obviously isn't the same as other Level 0s, but I would say the reason he can beat his opponents is that they underestimate him. Some of his opponents don't make that mistake and can wipe the floor with him (ie Kanzaki).


<EDIT: I should actually append this. He wins some of his fights from his opponents underestimating him or not knowing the best way to deal with Imagine Breaker. But, the author does like to emphasize Touma being creative in his fights, or using his past battle experience. Even so, Touma does still lose occasionally. And when he wins, there's a reason (opponent's underestimation, or his own creativity), and it's not just because his power is a trump card like Accelerator's.>


Honestly in what seems like a pattern, your stuff sounds like it gets better as it goes on, maybe he gets more freedom and thinks about his world more and has the editorial room to expand it. Still, that's my other thing with Touma, he gets Batman levels of Plot armor. All the bad guys are bizarelly sadistic and inefficient.



In Index I agree that Mikoto has a lot more tsundering and less good protagonist portrayal. But she's not an Index protagonist, so I don't have a problem with that. In Railgun, I would argue that she's only been the "simpering little girl" once. And that's after she just spent a week being a "good" protagonist and blowing things up, only to find it was futile. So I don't hold it against her character that she reacts that way at the moment she has just resolved to die and then Touma shows up.


The thing that bugs me about this one, tbh is that whenever he appears in Railgun for whatever reason, she immediately goes back to her love interest persona... whether its before the big fight at the end of the sisters Arc or just randomly meeting him in the street. There's some need for consistency in plot elements I admit, but it's a general trend that goes well beyond these specific shows. Women are allowed to be strong until the main character shows up, then they get turned into wish-fulfillment.
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Posted 9/29/13
Can some one give me what the difference between Index and Railgun is?

Considering I have not watched either show and do not want to be horribly spoiled but I do know what Index is kind of about because I think I read some chapters from the manga (not a lot though)
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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13

windsagio wrote:
THAT's the story I want to read, about the level 0 without any special Deus ex Machina powers overcoming and thriving despite the system.



Hamazura that I mentioned earlier as one of the new main characters, actually appeared at the end of Season 2. He was the Skill Out member Touma punched in the face at the end of the episode. YEP a character that has NO special powers and goes all out against a level 5 that goes against him as well as the entirety of Academy City. You just have to wait for season 3.

As for Touma's power: think of the implications of his power. What if there was no magic or ESP powers in the world? Then his power would mean nothing. His power and being is a point of reference for the world.

@Rito2Ru

Index is the main story based off the light novel, while Railgun is the side story based off of the Railgun manga, both are written by Kazuma. Railgun S1, timeline wise, occurs before Index S1. And Railgun S2 occurs mainly during the 3rd arc of Index S1.
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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13

Rito2Ru wrote:

Can some one give me what the difference between Index and Railgun is?

Considering I have not watched either show and do not want to be horribly spoiled but I do know what Index is kind of about because I think I read some chapters from the manga (not a lot though)


Index is the original/parent series while Railgun is a more of a side story focusing on Misaka Mikoto as the main protagonist along with her friends. However, there are arcs that are presented from both series but takes on a different POV from the main characters. Characters do also make cross overs appearances like Touma, Accelerator, and others in Railgun. (both in anime and manga version)

There's no LN of the official Railgun series (yet) that was adapted into anime form so far.
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