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Post Reply "Index" and "Railgun" and missed opportunities
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Posted 9/29/13
Out of Index/Index II/Railgun/Railgun S, i think Index was the best since it gave you a a little bit of everything.
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Posted 9/29/13

Girioni wrote:


As for Touma's power: think of the implications of his power. What if there was no magic or ESP powers in the world? Then his power would mean nothing. His power and being is a point of reference for the world.


We referenced what it's so like as to be eerie synchronicity earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magicians_of_Xanth#Bink


The Magician of Magical Invulnerability, Bink was the main character in the first two novels, A Spell for Chameleon and The Source of Magic. He is the son of Roland of the High Council and Bianca. Later in the series, he makes a rejuvenated appearance in Zombie Lover. The later books are taken over by his magician-caliber family members.
At one point he is banished for not possessing a magic talent. To prevent the exposure of its existence, his talent prefers to work in roundabout ways, at one time making an invisible giant walk by to stop him from revealing his talent while under a truth spell, for example. If the exact nature of his talent were known, he would be vulnerable to those who want to attack him through non-magic means - thus making (his own) magic the indirect cause of his injury. Therefore his talent is kept hidden by the select few who know about it. It also makes him a lucky man in a series of rather bizarre and dangerous coincidences (almost breaking his ankle after tripping on a rock to escape from the Gap Dragon).


His power is like Touma's on crack, and addresses some of hte same issues (while in a humerous instead of serious manner).

It also intentionally or not does a really good exposure of the EXTREMELY plot-pointy nature of that power.
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Posted 9/29/13
So based on what Girioni and Stark said, they're both part of the bigger plot but Index is the main one.

But is Railgun the more popular of the two? That's the impression I'm getting from some people.

And does it matter which I watch first?
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Posted 9/29/13 , edited 9/29/13
A missed, and really crucial point, to the 2nd arc of Index (the Deep Blood one) that was originally in the light novels is the existence of the clone of the alchemist. Here we have Touma who has trouble believing he is the same person (even though he is), while we also are introduced to a clone who has no idea that they are not just a clone of the original. A true character foil going on. In the light novel the alchemist seems to be a much more likable character that is meant to show how Touma would have turned out had he not saved Index.

My overall point by saying this is that the anime tends to skip over the key ideas and deeper thought that the light novel goes into.

What I did like with the deeper thoughts in the anime, it occurred with Railgun S2 which came out clearly with the comparison of cats to the sisters.

Misaka is supposed to represent a character that has so much confidence in herself she finds it hard to rely on others, and when she despairs in the third arc, it was a representation of how big the burden is without others. This also relates to Touma in the fact that while he goes around complaining about others not relying on him. He is also refusing to rely on others. Relating back to the idea of science and magic refusing to mix and how working together creates better solutions. (Remember how Touma hears the magical side of things regarding Index, but only until hearing the science side was he able to help Index.)

@Rito2Ru

No. The events of each don't spoil too much of each other. Except for Railgun S2 and the third arc of Index S1 which are the same, except Railgun S2 is a better quality version and is told mainly from Misaka's side of events. But Railgun S2 contains all of Index S1 third arc's story, while the third arc of Index S1 does not contain all the scenes of Railgun S2. As for Railgun being more popular... well it's mostly true, the anime of Railgun is done better than Index. But it also focuses on the fan favorite Misaka, while putting the more hated as annoying Touma as more of a side character.
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Posted 9/29/13

Rito2Ru wrote:

So based on what Girioni and Stark said, they're both part of the bigger plot but Index is the main one.

But is Railgun the more popular of the two? That's the impression I'm getting from some people.

And does it matter which I watch first?

I would say the Index anime suffers a bit from the compartmentalized nature of it's arcs. Light novels come out a few times a year, so it's not as big of an issue when each book has self-contained plots, with varying sets of characters. But I can understand that anime watchers who don't love it would criticize the anime for jumping around every 3-6 episodes. There are still obviously arcs in the Railgun anime, but it's a smaller set of more consistent characters with a single overarching arc behind the smaller ones. So I think people respond better to the consistency in Railgun for the anime. I personally like Index better than Railgun overall. Though, Railgun S has the most in depth portrayal of my favorite Index arc, so the first part of Raigun S might be my favorite set of episodes.

You could start with either series. Watching at least up to the end of Index 1 ep 6 would give you all the necessary back story for Touma if you wanted to start with Railgun. And as people have said, past Index episode 9 overlaps with the first part of Railgun S.
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Posted 9/29/13

windsagio wrote:
It could be a totally upbeat story about how someone overcomes the stupid test saying they're level 0 and developing powers anyways, and it would be infinitely more interseting than the by-the-numbers action/adventure we ended up getting. THAT's the story I want to read, about the level 0 without any special Deus ex Machina powers overcoming and thriving despite the system. That would be something interesting and special.

There will be a big Deus ex Machina.
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Posted 9/30/13 , edited 9/30/13
Logically I think Touma should died when he fought the Samurai girl in the anime. He has no super reflexes or speed, yet he can knock out someone like Accelerator with one punch?

Railgun only really interested me with the clone saga. Almost everything else bores me. I've only watched bits and pieces of Railgun because I would be so disinterested with its "slice of life" sections.
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Posted 9/30/13
Personally. I think they are all well done and bring a lot of different elements to the overall story that I think are fun to watch as well as interesting.

I have no problem with any of them. Out of all of them, Index is my favorite cause well, Index is hilarious as a character. I can't wait for Index III!
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Posted 9/30/13

windsagio wrote:

These shows, while I enjoy them, annoy me to no end. They just could have been something special, and end up being only a fun ride.

The world they reside in is one of the most subtly dystopian I've seen in anime, and it's kind of great for that. It's a beautiful safe post-needs society that only worships knowledge and power, and which is willing to sacrifice ANYTHING for those goals. The juxtaposition and the irony of the world makes for a really strong setting, especially at the start of the various series...

Because it seems that it's going to be about the powerless in a a society that worships power and gives benefits for power even if it's a worthless one. And that's what you think you're going to get with Touma at the beginning of Index. Nobody knows he has a power, so he's subject to subtle discrimination and feels powerless... But they can't do that of course, so they give him a super-power trump card that negates all others, as is proper for any manga/anime/light novel hero. He can't be heroic despite being powerless, they have to give him a perfect counter (I like to compare him to Bink from Xanth, for those who are old and geeky enough to remember that, except Bink's power is kind of played for laughs, while Touma's is treated totally seriously'. They traded in the possibility for an interesting story for a dime-a-dozen action/adventure.

Railgun is, to me, in some ways worse... because they have the characters right there, and sometimes spend time looking at them. Saten and Uihara are a million times more interesting than the 'generic tsundere super-powerful action chick', and the things you see with them have potential for a real story (the best thing in all of the series is the stuff about Saten dealing with the issues she has with being powerless, although even that reinforces the deep injustice of the world, as they get browbeaten for 'cheating'). It's great that they address the idea, and it's well done with amazing characterization, but it also hurts.... I'm always left with what could have been when they spend another 10 episodes using their super powers and shooting megalasers at each other.

~~~

In short, goddamn what shows they COULD have been. We're left with only 'really fun and very generic'.


(There now I feel better getting that off my chest :D)


I partially agree with you on Railgun. Saten has ten million missed opportunities. However, Uiharu did prove herself as a low-level esper with great promise.
On Index, I completely disagree. I think Toma should be treated as the antithesis of a vertical society and the series did a fantastic job of doing so. Touma proves that those with great power that don't use it properly are not unstoppable by someone "weaker". It also deviates from a standard concept: if you don't have enough power, get more and learn how to use it. Touma shatters that theory by not gaining more power and instead uses what he has access to like a young Japanese supernatural MacGuyver kind of thing. Touma proves that power is not everything and that is what makes the story compelling.
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Posted 9/30/13

windsagio wrote:

AND AGAIN I DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST DARK AND BLEAK.


...I'm sorry, I just wanted to express my opinion for those who felt it should have been just dark. You aren't the first (or most extreme) person I have met who feels that way. I did read that post, by the way- the "you" was not referring to just you in particular.

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Posted 9/30/13

meowmeow418 wrote:



I partially agree with you on Railgun. Saten has ten million missed opportunities. However, Uiharu did prove herself as a low-level esper with great promise.
On Index, I completely disagree. I think Toma should be treated as the antithesis of a vertical society and the series did a fantastic job of doing so. Touma proves that those with great power that don't use it properly are not unstoppable by someone "weaker". It also deviates from a standard concept: if you don't have enough power, get more and learn how to use it. Touma shatters that theory by not gaining more power and instead uses what he has access to like a young Japanese supernatural MacGuyver kind of thing. Touma proves that power is not everything and that is what makes the story compelling.


The thing with touma is it would have been more meaningful (I think) if they'd just given him no special powers and made him smart/brave/strong enough to win anyways... maybe a little unrealistic for the world, but it's certainly a much better narrative. By giving him 'cheat' powers the writer is (imo) confirming the limitations of the world, because obviously a powerless person COULDN'T win (to the writer).
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Posted 9/30/13 , edited 9/30/13

The thing with touma is it would have been more meaningful (I think) if they'd just given him no special powers and made him smart/brave/strong enough to win anyways... maybe a little unrealistic for the world, but it's certainly a much better narrative. By giving him 'cheat' powers the writer is (imo) confirming the limitations of the world, because obviously a powerless person COULDN'T win (to the writer).


Isn't that because a person with no powers CAN'T win? All Accelerator needs to do to kill somebody is give them a pat on the back. So the nullify abilities power is made to give him parity with people that are capable of destroying cities, and even then his greatest power is Plot Armor. A left hand that voids abilities? Don't use an ability, use a gun.



At least to me, Touma appears to be a super confident, incredulously lucky guy that shows up at all the right times to save the day deus ex machina style.

At least he has the proper attitude, right? "I can't die and I achieve everything I want, Evil people abound? I'm on my way!"

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Posted 9/30/13

Nobodyofimportance wrote:
Isn't that because a person with no powers CAN'T win? All Accelerator needs to do to kill somebody is give them a pat on the back. So the nullify abilities power is made to give him parity with people that are capable of destroying cities, and even then his greatest power is Plot Armor. A left hand that voids abilities? Don't use an ability, use a gun.



It's all up to the writing then. If you design the world around the concept I'm talking about, power sets like accelerators would never exist in the first place (and he got jobbed so hard on that fight it's almost impossible to grasp. Hand or no, Touma had no chance except ham-handed (lol a pun) writer's fiat.)

Take away Touma's powers and take out or tune down the level 5s and you have a similar but more convincing vibe.
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Posted 10/1/13


It's all up to the writing then. If you design the world around the concept I'm talking about, power sets like accelerators would never exist in the first place (and he got jobbed so hard on that fight it's almost impossible to grasp. Hand or no, Touma had no chance except ham-handed (lol a pun) writer's fiat.)

Take away Touma's powers and take out or tune down the level 5s and you have a similar but more convincing vibe.


Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read the light novels or don't understand what you want, but if you take away the level 5s and Touma's powers, you lose .... everything. I mean, you could make his power plot protection, this Xanth show seems like it hit gold there, but without super strong powers what you're left with is some overarching system that controls a large number of people with the same level of ability. Then Touma is bottom rung and at the mercy of everybody. He can't do anything, because a person with an ability to a person without one is like an accelerator to a person with an ability. I feel like the setting or story would either go to pieces, or be such a despair filled angst fest it wouldn't be fun anymore. Touma's basically a glorified tour guide anyways.

I like index being fun and colorful, the ridiculousness contrasts well with the human experimentation, system that methodically murders, plots and conspires thing they have going. The epic powers are the icing on the cake, the fireworks that make it bright and dazzly. Index seems to have showboating down pat, which I think is good.

I respectfully disagree with your main point. Outside of touma's powers needing revision, which I agree with.

So, I guess what I want to know is, what do you want?
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Posted 10/1/13
I happen to really like Index/Railgun - the anime is my favourite light novel adaption series
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