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Ugh, another God discussion
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Posted 1/29/08

Faeleia wrote:
This guy is saying what I hve ALWAYS been saying about atheist vs Christianity threads. There is actually little to no grounds to a fight, because the tool that atheists use, having no anchor of idea of 'God', they use the next closest to an idea of God which is man-made god - science and logic. Christians and other religions use faith, which is believing in a doctrine given no particular manifested evidence.

Faith cannot exist with logic, because logic aims to prove everything to explain it with the human mind. Faith, once having the need to be tested and experimented, is not faith. 'Religious' people who try to test God to see if tithing or donation will actually reproduce the effect of being 'blessed' are simply people lacking faith. These people seek the blessings instead of the blesser. They go after the gifts without realising the gifts and the giver are one. That's why faith is difficult to place.

It's difficult to argue with Christians, because even some of them have lack of faith, or faith placed in the wrong things, like material goods, external things. Therefore, not all Christians represent the religion that they have subscribed to, because when you've believed wrongly, as scientists will tell you, when you alter the materials put to experiment, the results will differ. What matters is the compounds and make-up of the substance, not the outward appearance. Supposedly, real faith is given from God. Those who can believe and believe even without actual manifestation into the physical world does not mean that they have no proof at all. For my own experience, believing and taking that step to believe has caused me to change inwardly. The changes start from inside. Change of personality, THEN it starts to manifest into outward changes, healing, positive health, blessings.

A good way to tell a true Christian who has understood at least the main gist of what God has truly given up Jesus for, will prove themselves in their fruits. The way they speak, act, and think would reflect what their heart is like. An unbelieving heart will sooner or later reveal itself through actions out of inward abundance.

Science is all about calculations, proving with methods devised by humans themselves. Their grounds is the work of man, proving with man's ways. Man and God are not the same, similarly, the 'tools' we use aren't on equal planes. One will never find the other using one's tools. Therefore going round and round about the mulberry bush will not solve things.

The universe is bigger than man. It is impossible to prove one versus one. 'Out of the mouth of two to three witnesses shall every word be established', as it is written in the Bible. Even the Bible recognises things like justice and fairness in accounts. Without an establishing party to confirm which side is right, without a judge to litigate, the dispute remains unsolved. That is, unless God personally appears (which he says he would after all has heard of the gospels, which is after a period of earthquakes, famines, nations rising against nations) mere man cannot prove things of God.

That's why, when these two do not exist on the same plane, is the term 'leap of faith' established. Please try to understand what the true meaning of that phrase means. Christians who choose to believe in God will be able to know that God does not lie, but they have to first take that leap of faith to believe (ie. casting away their doubts and cares to God) and follow Jesus (focus on Him, not his blessings) and blessings will be added to the believer.


Nothing personal against you, I just like to criticize.
::Warning, intense corrosive satire ahead::
Here's an idea, how about all religious advocates go take their leap of faith...from a cliff or something, that will solve a lot of problems. =)
Faith...Logic, seemingly polar opposites, but they actually cannot exist without one another. Faith cannot exist with a logic to interpret what it is we should have faith in. And vice versa logic cannot exist without our faith in logic itself. Maybe they are two sides to the same coin, we can only see one side at a time and are blind to the other side, but the side we cannot see is still there, no?

lol this brought an image into my head that I would like to share with everyone:
Imagine two hungry fools looking at a coin, they need this coin to buy food. One fool sees the 'heads' side, we will call him the heads-fool. The other fool sees the 'tails' side, we will call him the tails-fool.
Heads-fool states to tails-fool,"You're an idiot, this coin obviously only has a heads side."
Tails-fool replies to heads-fool,"You're the one that's an idiot, it obviously only has a tails side."
And so these two fools argued for two thousand years, totally forgetting what the coin was initially for, and starved themselves to death.

Also Faeleia, I have tried to show that the idea of God or gods are present in people's minds and the choice to believe those ideas make that God or those gods real to the believers. I believe we have also commented on how such a belief can influence 'perceived reality'(that's a whole other debate, I wont do into that now).

Most of us know this, but we still argue. Why? It's not so logical is it? Why not try having a little 'faith' in the argumentative nature of us human beings? =)

PS: not to mention I've found these arguments quite rewarding, both in my persuasive skills and in my insight into the actual topics being argued. It's always nice to see(or try to see) things from another's perspective.
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Posted 1/29/08

Faeleia wrote:


tobydiah wrote:

How do some of you insult each other about how the other doesn't know what they are talking about? You can't really prove or disprove god's existence with logic. Then someone can say that you can't believe something until it can be proven even if it can't be disproved. But religion also tends to believe in god(s) based on their faith and belief. Not logical evidence. And you can't really argue which if more valid: faith versus logic. You really can't prove either side of that debate either since logic is merely another function of the human mind to make sense of things and to seeking the truth. Logic being on a different page as faith, you can't really form a conclusive argument against faith since it's something abstract to our comprehension. So, do claim that god exists or do we claim that he doesn't? Or do we claim that we shouldn't believe in god unless we have proof? We really can't have a solid claim on either so I don't know why people are getting heated about it and telling each other off.

The people giving religion a good name are the people who don't tell off or belittle the ones that don't believe.
And the non religious people giving atheists and agnostics a good name are the ones who disagree yet respect the views and beliefs of those with religious faith.
Then there are those who look down on and insult the other, merely fueling more hostility between the two sides.

Btw. You guys can't argue using definitions and lingual loopholes to make the other person wrong. It's obvious that sometimes it's obviously not what they mean yet you're twisting their words around to suit your argument.


This guy is saying what I hve ALWAYS been saying about atheist vs Christianity threads. There is actually little to no grounds to a fight, because the tool that atheists use, having no anchor of idea of 'God', they use the next closest to an idea of God which is man-made god - science and logic. Christians and other religions use faith, which is believing in a doctrine given no particular manifested evidence.

Faith cannot exist with logic, because logic aims to prove everything to explain it with the human mind. Faith, once having the need to be tested and experimented, is not faith. 'Religious' people who try to test God to see if tithing or donation will actually reproduce the effect of being 'blessed' are simply people lacking faith. These people seek the blessings instead of the blesser. They go after the gifts without realising the gifts and the giver are one. That's why faith is difficult to place.

It's difficult to argue with Christians, because even some of them have lack of faith, or faith placed in the wrong things, like material goods, external things. Therefore, not all Christians represent the religion that they have subscribed to, because when you've believed wrongly, as scientists will tell you, when you alter the materials put to experiment, the results will differ. What matters is the compounds and make-up of the substance, not the outward appearance. Supposedly, real faith is given from God. Those who can believe and believe even without actual manifestation into the physical world does not mean that they have no proof at all. For my own experience, believing and taking that step to believe has caused me to change inwardly. The changes start from inside. Change of personality, THEN it starts to manifest into outward changes, healing, positive health, blessings.

A good way to tell a true Christian who has understood at least the main gist of what God has truly given up Jesus for, will prove themselves in their fruits. The way they speak, act, and think would reflect what their heart is like. An unbelieving heart will sooner or later reveal itself through actions out of inward abundance.

Science is all about calculations, proving with methods devised by humans themselves. Their grounds is the work of man, proving with man's ways. Man and God are not the same, similarly, the 'tools' we use aren't on equal planes. One will never find the other using one's tools. Therefore going round and round about the mulberry bush will not solve things.

The universe is bigger than man. It is impossible to prove one versus one. 'Out of the mouth of two to three witnesses shall every word be established', as it is written in the Bible. Even the Bible recognises things like justice and fairness in accounts. Without an establishing party to confirm which side is right, without a judge to litigate, the dispute remains unsolved. That is, unless God personally appears (which he says he would after all has heard of the gospels, which is after a period of earthquakes, famines, nations rising against nations) mere man cannot prove things of God.

That's why, when these two do not exist on the same plane, is the term 'leap of faith' established. Please try to understand what the true meaning of that phrase means. Christians who choose to believe in God will be able to know that God does not lie, but they have to first take that leap of faith to believe (ie. casting away their doubts and cares to God) and follow Jesus (focus on Him, not his blessings) and blessings will be added to the believer.


These arguments, when not hostile and not filled with emotion instead of logic, do have a purpose. I have no problem with someone believing in God so long as it does not fly in the face of science (i.e. the world is only a few thousand years old). I do feel that science is the best system we have of understanding the world and that there is no reason to accept one God over another if evidence is lacking for all, but you are both right: God can neither be proven nor disproven by logic/science (actually, some can if they violate the law of identity, but we'll leave that out), so it doesn't matter which side attempts to use it for that purpose - everyone sounds stupid.

I would like people to reach that point of uncertainty, though, not blindly believe in what they've been taught. Some of us can't just believe in something without evidence, some can, and some are deeply conflicted over it. It doesn't matter as long as the thought isn't superficial.

I may sound hostile myself at times, but this is when logic is being misused or religion is attempting to control behavior. It is not my purpose to destroy religion, though I'll admit that thought is not unappealing to me.

Faeleia, you spoke in a previous post of atheists who throw out comments to sway believers, but consider a few things. If these believers are "strong enough" in their faith, these comments (often ignorant themselves) will have no effect. If they do have an effect, consider it to be just one stepping stone on a path towards self-knowledge and clarity, whether it ultimately leads to the rejection of God or a return to religion.

Lastly, I would like to point out that this is most assuredly not one-sided as you portray it. The religious do the same thing to atheists and members of other religions, even telling them that they will be tormented forever. Furthermore, many people are raised to believe in God from an early age, which cultivates tradition rather than faith and takes away, to some extent, one's choice. While some are probably raised to reject God as well, they are far, far fewer. Religion, then, seems more subtle, dangerous, and controlling in the way it is perpetuated, especially since it often attempts to dictate how we should live our lives.

I mean only to demonstrate that, between the most popular religions of the world and atheism, the latter is far less of a threat. As I essentially said before, I don't care if someone lives his life according to his religion (provided he doesn't try to control me or impose a bias upon his children that basically eliminates choice) - I just want him to have truly tested his faith.
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Posted 1/29/08

emm0548 wrote:

and you will never understand in a logical or scientifical point of view since not all facts are true... things are not what it seems...
and science cannot and will not prove anything, they will only stay as theories never proved...


Well, the definition of proof is tricky, but your point is valid and is precisely what I would like to convey to others. Science and religion are both systems of understanding. I value the former because feelings are too easily manipulated, too fleeting to form a reliable system. Maybe what you feel is genuine, but it constitutes neither physical evidence nor logical proof of something more. I don't know what it is that you experience, but it is quite possible that I would reject it even if I felt it myself, as I am fully aware that my strong feelings have been wrong before. One problem with faith through feelings is that it never encounters proof one way or another, so people continue to believe and be certain of it.

But it is just a choice. If it gets you through life, especially if it makes you happy as well, I say do as you wish. I just don't want people telling me what I must or cannot do without properly justifying it. The default is freedom; those who wish to take it away, be they members of religion or law, must demonstrate that it is necessary.

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Posted 1/29/08

Regulus133 wrote:


emm0548 wrote:

and you will never understand in a logical or scientifical point of view since not all facts are true... things are not what it seems...
and science cannot and will not prove anything, they will only stay as theories never proved...


Well, the definition of proof is tricky, but your point is valid and is precisely what I would like to convey to others. Science and religion are both systems of understanding. I value the former because feelings are too easily manipulated, too fleeting to form a reliable system. Maybe what you feel is genuine, but it constitutes neither physical evidence nor logical proof of something more. I don't know what it is that you experience, but it is quite possible that I would reject it even if I felt it myself, as I am fully aware that my strong feelings have been wrong before. One problem with faith through feelings is that it never encounters proof one way or another, so people continue to believe and be certain of it.

But it is just a choice. If it gets you through life, especially if it makes you happy as well, I say do as you wish. I just don't want people telling me what I must or cannot do without properly justifying it. The default is freedom; those who wish to take it away, be they members of religion or law, must demonstrate that it is necessary.



yeah i know what you mean...but the time when i was questioning about God? it turned out that from then on... i never belived in religion... any religion in fact... but i still belive in God and in Christ... but i dont have to go to a religion do i?

and i dont like people forcing me to do something that i dont like... because the more they try to convince you.. the more you move away from it... because you would feel strangled...

one of my gf's friends became atheist because of logic, philosophy.. because the professor proved that there is no God... so as he said ( its because of belief still ryt? atheists still belive in something.. it just so happened that they beilve in logic and intellect than in God) but months or i think a year after that happened... he really felt empty... i dont know what he really felt or what he was thinking... i am not him... but still people respected him...

it was his choice to go against God because of his belief but he then realized...without people always telling him what to do... he came back... he felt emptiness without Gods love...(wierd huh? but that is the mystery about it.. w/c can never be explained like every nerve in the human anatomy)

and that was his choice... his freedom... and i also respect ur ideas.. after all... just like you i also questioned...no, try to find the truth about him...

but:

God will never be proved... thats why it is called faith... among science and logic...everything will fail... those earthly things will dissapear but he is always there... and unless you know that and understand without using logic or any human ideas about it..
you will experience what i and others have experienced... :)

just dont close ur mind... keep it open/willing to accept things beyond ur reach... maybe ul end up like me...or maybe not..

but whatever you find... i hope ul truly be happy..
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Posted 1/29/08

emm0548 wrote:

one of my gf's friends became atheist because of logic, philosophy.. because the professor proved that there is no God... so as he said ( its because of belief still ryt? atheists still belive in something.. it just so happened that they beilve in logic and intellect than in God) but months or i think a year after that happened... he really felt empty... i dont know what he really felt or what he was thinking... i am not him... but still people respected him...

it was his choice to go against God because of his belief but he then realized...without people always telling him what to do... he came back... he felt emptiness without Gods love...(wierd huh? but that is the mystery about it.. w/c can never be explained like every nerve in the human anatomy)

and that was his choice... his freedom... and i also respect ur ideas.. after all... just like you i also questioned...no, try to find the truth about him...

but:

God will never be proved... thats why it is called faith... among science and logic...everything will fail... those earthly things will dissapear but he is always there... and unless you know that and understand without using logic or any human ideas about it..
you will experience what i and others have experienced... :)

just dont close ur mind... keep it open/willing to accept things beyond ur reach... maybe ul end up like me...or maybe not..

but whatever you find... i hope ul truly be happy.. :)


Well, as has been said in this thread already, it is impossible to disprove God unless you define it with contradictions like loving everyone but sending some to eternal torment with no chance of escape.

I feel empty as well. Very empty. I used to believe in God, but I encountered more than enough reason to drop that belief. With that loss, I also faced the collapse of certainty in anything in existence, and that was a terrible blow to my little world. You tell me to be open, but it is precisely because I am open-minded that I feel empty, since I cannot settle upon anything. I've managed to dig a bit of a hole to live in, but I have yet to decide whether it is worth living for. Suicide has crossed my mind a number of times, but I'm not quite at that point. The next few years may decide it for me as I move from the world of education and being taken care of to the world of working at least five days a week to make barely enough money to live on. It's a depressing thought, but maybe I'm at the best point of my life right now.

At any rate, this faith ideal means nothing to me. That same "logic" could be used to believe in anything, so it can't make me happy. I wouldn't even be able to choose what God to accept anyway.
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Posted 1/29/08

Regulus133 wrote:


emm0548 wrote:

one of my gf's friends became atheist because of logic, philosophy.. because the professor proved that there is no God... so as he said ( its because of belief still ryt? atheists still belive in something.. it just so happened that they beilve in logic and intellect than in God) but months or i think a year after that happened... he really felt empty... i dont know what he really felt or what he was thinking... i am not him... but still people respected him...

it was his choice to go against God because of his belief but he then realized...without people always telling him what to do... he came back... he felt emptiness without Gods love...(wierd huh? but that is the mystery about it.. w/c can never be explained like every nerve in the human anatomy)

and that was his choice... his freedom... and i also respect ur ideas.. after all... just like you i also questioned...no, try to find the truth about him...

but:

God will never be proved... thats why it is called faith... among science and logic...everything will fail... those earthly things will dissapear but he is always there... and unless you know that and understand without using logic or any human ideas about it..
you will experience what i and others have experienced... :)

just dont close ur mind... keep it open/willing to accept things beyond ur reach... maybe ul end up like me...or maybe not..

but whatever you find... i hope ul truly be happy.. :)


Well, as has been said in this thread already, it is impossible to disprove God unless you define it with contradictions like loving everyone but sending some to eternal torment with no chance of escape.

I feel empty as well. Very empty. I used to believe in God, but I encountered more than enough reason to drop that belief. With that loss, I also faced the collapse of certainty in anything in existence, and that was a terrible blow to my little world. You tell me to be open, but it is precisely because I am open-minded that I feel empty, since I cannot settle upon anything. I've managed to dig a bit of a hole to live in, but I have yet to decide whether it is worth living for. Suicide has crossed my mind a number of times, but I'm not quite at that point. The next few years may decide it for me as I move from the world of education and being taken care of to the world of working at least five days a week to make barely enough money to live on. It's a depressing thought, but maybe I'm at the best point of my life right now.

At any rate, this faith ideal means nothing to me. That same "logic" could be used to believe in anything, so it can't make me happy. I wouldn't even be able to choose what God to accept anyway.


because ur smart all the time... you try to comprehend everything to your knowlegde.. you try to put something absolute in ur mind... something that you know...all of us know can never be proven...sometimes being too smart leads to destruction of self..

its ok... im like that before... you dont know how many scars ive had because if thot of suicide...

just remember...without God... without the higher being all of us are just nothing... thats why people tend to find God...if who or what he is... its ok that ur trying to find the truth...im not saying that it is wrong... but you feel the emptiness urself.. unless u surrender to that and belive that there is God... you can find peace...

besides there is only one God...just different ,means on how to worship him... the people just dont realize that because it is nature of a human being to compete...

i just hope u will go thru the right path... im not saying what path is that... its something you have to find urself...
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Dusterbayala wrote:

Now, please don't go and say things such as, "you don't know what your talking about" or "you've never been a believer" or any such nonsense... as i HAVE been a believer, in fact i was a very STRONG believer, However, the more about science i learned and the more about the other cultures in the world, and other religions, i've decided that I personally Don't believe in any ONE god.. I don't exactly believe in happenstance either. I also don't copmletely buy into Evolution, or creative design. I think that there's more knowledge out there, and once i find that knowledge, i will be enlightened to what the Truth is... even though many philosophers don't believe that anyone can know the one Truth, but the many truths... (i hope you understand what i mean)



I understand what you mean =3 and yeah, it's a fair similar story for me.

Not sure what you're saying with the rest of your post, but I'll answer to the Catholic part. I'm pretty sure we follow basically the same Bible, as I've also read or been read to, the part of Moses and the 10 Commandments. I guess they respect Saints and also worship Mary because they are people among us who have been blessed by God over others, they've been chosen by the almighty being, (they don't really worship Saints so much I reckon), and essentially, it is still God that is the basis of their worship.

But hey, maybe theres some underlying reason for it, like strengthening the Pope's power over people or something, or it could be just some major bullshit fed to people to make it more interesting, who knows?
The beliefs and morals from Catholic and Christian (any of it's branches) are basically the same anyways.
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Posted 1/29/08

emm0548 wrote:

because ur smart all the time... you try to comprehend everything to your knowlegde.. you try to put something absolute in ur mind... something that you know...all of us know can never be proven...sometimes being too smart leads to destruction of self..

its ok... im like that before... you dont know how many scars ive had because if thot of suicide...

just remember...without God... without the higher being all of us are just nothing... thats why people tend to find God...if who or what he is... its ok that ur trying to find the truth...im not saying that it is wrong... but you feel the emptiness urself.. unless u surrender to that and belive that there is God... you can find peace...

besides there is only one God...just different ,means on how to worship him... the people just dont realize that because it is nature of a human being to compete...

i just hope u will go thru the right path... im not saying what path is that... its something you have to find urself... :)


Well, I don't know if "all of us are just nothing without God" is a meaningful statement. You'd have to get into what it means to actually be something and what it means to be nothing. Being created, having eternal life... these don't make us any better than we would be if we weren't created and were only around for a few decades. I've come to the conclusion that God itself does not provide the sort of absolute I require. If it is, for example, the stereotypical Christian God who says murder is wrong and so on, I have to question where he derives that authority. Some would say it's from his omnipotence, but then that's just "might makes right." Others would say it's because God is goodness embodied, but that doesn't really answer the question since it doesn't define goodness. And if you say that God is not what Christians say, is in fact "everything" in a sense, then that doesn't help me find a way to live my life happily. And, no matter what sort of being it is, its love doesn't change the life I dread to experience.

Some are Kierkegaard, some are Nietzsche... and some want to be both but can't be either.
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Hmm, I can't answer as detailed this time, since the homework from yesterday is still not done >.>


excalion wrote:

Ok..how about I dont need to be a Satanist to object to being a Satanist? o.o


I guess that's a better example ;3 Still, when he says you can't know about being a Christian he's right. Objecting to it is another thing.


excalion wrote:

ahojcookie wrote:

excalion wrote:
Christians think Christian teachings are based on God.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one who stated that god does
exist, simply because he/she/it/whatever exists in the mind of people? I admit I didn't read through the whole thing though. Anyway, if so, then it's perfectly reasonable for a Christian to believe so.

Yes except what might be reasonable for them isn't exactly reasonable for me.
While I did stress the existence of the idea of God in people's minds. I guess what I forgot to stress is if its only in your mind, then its true for only you, its not universally true. Basically:
If Christians think their teachings are based on God, then its true for Christians their teachings are indeed based on God, but its not true for anyone else.
Very very simplified version of what I'm trying to say:
If you believe something, then you believe something is true, then that thing is true for you, and only you.(and others who believe the same thing of course)
I know that sounds really obvious but I dont know why so many people fail to see that.


"Yes except what might be reasonable for them isn't exactly reasonable for me." And the same goes for the other way around.

I don't disagree, still his reasoning is different than yours and is not wrong coming from his perspective. That's what you guys were on about, right? Who's right and who's wrong? ;3


excalion wrote:
It is entirely possible to have a problem without suffering. Suffering is a mentality, problems are a physical happening. If I'm not clear, I'll try to rephrase.
A person can have problems happening all around him, but he can still be immune to suffering due to a happy-go-lucky mentality. In fact, Buddhism emphasizes on problems, and also emphasizes on the immunity to suffering by thinking that nothing was yours in the first place.
Therefor, problems =/= suffering.


Lol, okay, from a buddhist point of view. I thought you were argumenting from an atheist's point of view? There are problems that won't cause suffering depending on your mentality, but they will at the latest when concerning your physicality.


excalion wrote:
Unfortunately most Christians actually believe than CAN understand God and his teachings, if not completely then to a degree. If they didn't claim as such, there would be no Christianity (except for a book *probably fiction* depicting what happened thousands of years ago) And most of them dont care about the actual teachings as much as they care about the entities God and Jesus, for it is from the conceptualization of these entities that their teachings hold any power in the first place.


I still disagree with that, they believe to know that God is infallible maybe, but not that they understand why he is doing things the way he does. That one "quote" I mentioned says all about the Christian mentality on that matter. Every believer in any holy book will tell you it's open for intepretations.Entities are mysterious beings to humans.


excalion wrote:
Arrogance: The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption. Closely related to the act of arrogating.

Narrow-minded: Having restricted or rigid views, and being unreceptive to new ideas

Yes by what he said he meant, it would be more defined as narrow-minded, but being narrow-minded is a trait of being arrogant. If you read his posts and his comments about my character, you will see that arrogance more accurately describes that he is actually calling me.


Well, you are the one that posted the things he told you out of the original context. One more thing I'd like to add: I'm arrogant, but not narrow-minded. I have not yet read a definition of arrogance including narrow-mindedness.


excalion wrote:

ahojcookie wrote:

excalion wrote:

Dark_Flubba wrote:
But we care for everything we do or we wouldn't do it. So therefore we are all fools and some more so than others.

I never refuted what you said, I just said it really doesn't matter. Now can we stop talking about this pointless technicality?


Heh, sounds bitchy. Actually it was not a bad point imo.


Well how we got to this was with his first response he called me an 'ignorant retard' to which I responded that indeed we might all be ignorant retards. To that he replied "some more than others" obviously refering to me. The point I was trying to make here is that in the end it doesn't really matter, and argueing this moot point will not further the conversation.


Okay. But once more, that's what you get for posting bits of conversation out of their original content.


excalion wrote:
Actually, before you jump down my throat, I jumped into Gabcom's thread to make a whimsical claim on Christianity, I wasn't bashing anyone in particular, just stating my deductions on what Christianity could be. If there is any fault in that, it was that I did not back them up by sufficiently showing the 'why'. To which I later corrected by copy/pasting quotes of myself from other threads on this forum.(Upon request)

Directly answering your question though:
Idk, how come most of the religious followers seem to get off on telling atheists we're gonna go to hell?



Sorry, if you felt I jumped down your throat, I might have not pointed out clearly enough that this wasn't directed at you, but at most of the atheists I saw posting on threads pertaining Christianity or other religions. I noticed that you are a newer member. We've had a lot of debates about religion and such on CR a while ago though. I said what I said, because I noticed there's a new wave rolling in with the extended discussion section. I had a whole paragraph reserved for Faeleia too, but as I wasn't sure anymore if I had confirmed that particular incident for myself, I decided to drop it ;3

However, about your "answer" to my question...I don't know about other atheists, but as I not believe in hell, a Christian could not possibly insult with that line. Maybe that's just my arrogance though.
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ahojcookie wrote:
However, about your "answer" to my question...I don't know about other atheists, but as I not believe in hell, a Christian could not possibly insult with that line. Maybe that's just my arrogance though.


Gah I'm too tired to address everything you said, but I will take the time to point out that:

1. Buddhism isn't necessarily a religion, you can be atheist and Buddhist at the same time.
2. I suppose I must correct myself, I meant Narrow-mindedness is a possible trait included in being arrogant.
3. Defining certain things as "good" and "bad" because God willed it so is a way of saying they can understand God.

And technically, I'm trying to prove that I am right in claiming that we are all wrong. (Highly paradoxical) and he is trying to prove that he is right in that he is right.
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^3. No that's just what he told them, supposedly. The "whys", why is xy good or bad? Well, that's either intepretation or they will tell you "because the bible says so". No one claiming to understand shit here
2. Although I find it hard to believe that you can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time, wiki said otherwise =_= However that one exaple you used, it sounds like that particular teaching includes the belief in something like an universal good...Or rather, assuming loss shouldn't cause suffering, because it wasn't yours in the first place implies you were given it. By a deity most likely? Oh well, buddhism is really an unknown topic to me...

If that's the purpose of your thread, the title is misleading ;3
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ahojcookie wrote:

^3. No that's just what he told them, supposedly. The "whys", why is xy good or bad? Well, that's either intepretation or they will tell you "because the bible says so". No one claiming to understand shit here
2. Although I find it hard to believe that you can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time, wiki said otherwise =_= However that one exaple you used, it sounds like that particular teaching includes the belief in something like an universal good...Or rather, assuming loss shouldn't cause suffering, because it wasn't yours in the first place implies you were given it. By a deity most likely? Oh well, buddhism is really an unknown topic to me...

If that's the purpose of your thread, the title is misleading ;3


=.= how many times do I have to explain.

The purpose of this thread is nothing but to reply to someone without being more and more off-topic in another different thread about something else. Damn >.<
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Lol, that's the purpose of your thread? Sorry, but threads are supposed for discussion. Why bother making a thread about your replies to a certain CR member, you could have done that via private message o_0? I don't want to sound mean, but I guess it's okay to report this, because it has no purpose related to the forum.
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"The purpose of this thread is nothing but to reply to someone without being more and more off-topic in another different thread about something else. Damn >.<"


Use PM's

Good discussion and all but you should learn to post threads.

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emm0548 wrote:

one of my gf's friends became atheist because of logic, philosophy.. because the professor proved that there is no God... so as he said ( its because of belief still ryt? atheists still belive in something.. it just so happened that they beilve in logic and intellect than in God) but months or i think a year after that happened... he really felt empty... i dont know what he really felt or what he was thinking... i am not him... but still people respected him...

it was his choice to go against God because of his belief but he then realized...without people always telling him what to do... he came back... he felt emptiness without Gods love...(wierd huh? but that is the mystery about it.. w/c can never be explained like every nerve in the human anatomy)

and that was his choice... his freedom... and i also respect ur ideas.. after all... just like you i also questioned...no, try to find the truth about him...

but:

God will never be proved... thats why it is called faith... among science and logic...everything will fail... those earthly things will dissapear but he is always there... and unless you know that and understand without using logic or any human ideas about it..
you will experience what i and others have experienced... :)

just dont close ur mind... keep it open/willing to accept things beyond ur reach... maybe ul end up like me...or maybe not..

but whatever you find... i hope ul truly be happy.. :)


Well, as has been said in this thread already, it is impossible to disprove God unless you define it with contradictions like loving everyone but sending some to eternal torment with no chance of escape.

I feel empty as well. Very empty. I used to believe in God, but I encountered more than enough reason to drop that belief. With that loss, I also faced the collapse of certainty in anything in existence, and that was a terrible blow to my little world. You tell me to be open, but it is precisely because I am open-minded that I feel empty, since I cannot settle upon anything. I've managed to dig a bit of a hole to live in, but I have yet to decide whether it is worth living for. Suicide has crossed my mind a number of times, but I'm not quite at that point. The next few years may decide it for me as I move from the world of education and being taken care of to the world of working at least five days a week to make barely enough money to live on. It's a depressing thought, but maybe I'm at the best point of my life right now.

At any rate, this faith ideal means nothing to me. That same "logic" could be used to believe in anything, so it can't make me happy. I wouldn't even be able to choose what God to accept anyway.


That emptiness is not uncommon. It's the feeling of being lost. Jesus came to guide the lost sheep. But that won't make absolute sense until the moment when he has personally called his sheep. His messages sound the same to both who listen, but only one who has been delivered will be able to understand the multiplicity of his meanings into a compound phrase.

I shan't go further, because I believe there will be a time when that phrase 'lost sheep' would mean much much more than what you think it means now. (Not to take a stab at one's intellectual level - it's hardly about intelligence) but yeah. Your God takes care of me, actually, whether you believe it or not.
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