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Post Reply Sub the Opening/Ending of Anime + Songs (Idol Anime)
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22 / M / South Africa
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Posted 1/10/14
So, im kinda sad that you guys do not sub the opening/ending of the anime's, aswell as songs normally found in idol anime.

CR Just picked up Wake up Girls! and Sonico The Animation, aswell as No-Rin, and they all sort of Idol anime that will probably have insert songs added into the episodes... Yet I can't enjoy the songs if there are no subs to go along with it, I want to know what im listening too and the lyrics, as lyrics can tell a different story.

Also, why not just sub the opening/ending of Anime aswell? It really can't take that long, also will build a better name for CR if they can sub everything in an episode.

Its kinda stupid I have to resort to fansubs (as they sub the insert songs + Opening/Ending) For the Idol anime and some anime that I enjoy singing along too.

So my suggestion would be to sub the opening/ending + insert songs.. Even hire new staff for that, It will honestly build a better name for CR subs, aswell as chase some fansubs away.

Also, Karaoke is <3.
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30 / M / Dallas, TX
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Posted 1/11/14

DeathyZA wrote:

Also, Karaoke is <3.


Karaoke effects are a wasted effort in my opinion, but that's not directly related to this issue.

Like getting subtitled videos available for the shows' dialog, CR requires the proper rights from the original copyright holder of the music to be able to create and provide a translation of the song lyrics. In many cases, these are either not available or cost prohibitive for CR to acquire. There have been a few cases where song subs have been shown on videos, such as Usagi Drop, but those are rare.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/11/14 , edited 5/17/15
Hond on. What?

Wake up Girls, a show about people singing, lacks subs for the singing? Please tell me you're joking.

Seriously, an anime about a singing group is totally pointless if the songs aren't subbed. Looks like yet another of this season's shows going onto my "Other Queue".

Very little of this season I'm watching via CR. Either through regional lockout or inferior subtitles. "Legal" is nice, but "Done Well" is infinitely more important.
Posted 1/11/14
apparently it has to do with complications of acquiring licensing from the songs from the record company. idk the full details, just paraphrasing what i remembered
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Posted 1/12/14 , edited 5/17/15
I understand that the licensing of music subs is complicated, even if I don't like it...

I just fail to understand why they pick up music-heavy shows without licensing the music. I am not going to watch a show about an idol group unless I'm 100% guaranteed of seeing at the very least the meanings of what the songs are.

I can (barely) tolerate the lack of opening/ending song-subs. I put up with it as pure convenience. But on shows like Kokoro Connect and *Monogatari the character/arc specific themes really are as much a part of the story as the spoken dialogue is.

Hell, I'm glad I first saw Bakemonogatari on Blu-ray. As if I didn't already know the ending theme there is a certain scene partway trough the series that wouldn't've meant as much to me without that point of recognition.
But at the very least, show with constant insert songs should have the lyric licenses sorted out. Otherwise would basically lose the subtitles for minutes at a time of vocal content actually voiced the the characters in the show, during the actual episode.
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22 / M / South Africa
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Posted 1/12/14
Seems like ill be sticking to FanSubs for the idol anime's. If Fansubs can translate the Insert songs and opening/ending. Then why can't CR? licensing my ass. You seriously need to get a license just to sub? If CR gets an anime, then they should hold the full license to add all subs including opening/ending and insert songs.

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Posted 1/12/14

DeathyZA wrote:

Seems like ill be sticking to FanSubs for the idol anime's. If Fansubs can translate the Insert songs and opening/ending. Then why can't CR? licensing my ass. You seriously need to get a license just to sub? If CR gets an anime, then they should hold the full license to add all subs including opening/ending and insert songs.



Problem is, it's the music company behind the artists who hold the licensing for the music. So it is a separate license as, I can only assume, they'd need final say on the translation.

Having said that, for some shows getting that license should be a no-brainer. Even if it is an additional cost.

Idol anime or anything else with a high insert song component, especially when sung by the characters, needs those subs. As they are a part of the story.

The increasing trend of the OP/ED effectively being the characters speaking their minds/hearts also means that these are as much a part of the show as the dialogue.

Yes, it might cost extra. But the simple fact of the matter is that people will seek out fansubs to get the lyrics.
Now for the theme songs, it might just be nabbing a single episode. So that they have a copy knocking around. I have a few one-offs downloaded just for this purpose. But for character or insert songs? Without the translated lyrics, they simply can't compete with fansubs. "Legal" doesn't cut it when "complete" is out there. But "Legal and Complete all in one" would be perfect.

But, yeah, especially for idol shows such as these, without translated lyrics they are an incomplete and, therefore, inferior translation.
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28 / M / San Antonio
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Posted 1/12/14

DeathyZA wrote:

Seems like ill be sticking to FanSubs for the idol anime's. If Fansubs can translate the Insert songs and opening/ending. Then why can't CR? licensing my ass. You seriously need to get a license just to sub? If CR gets an anime, then they should hold the full license to add all subs including opening/ending and insert songs.



Yes, you seriously need a license to sub. You also need one for each language the show gets translated into as well. This is how the industry works.

The reason Fansubbers can translate the songs is because they ignore copyright laws.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/13/14

-Chris311- wrote:
Yes, you seriously need a license to sub. You also need one for each language the show gets translated into as well. This is how the industry works.

The reason Fansubbers can translate the songs is because they ignore copyright laws.


So, it boils down to this...

If an unofficial product is superior (by default(*)) to a legit one, doesn't that show a problem with the system at large?

And on a more serious note, if people then don't bother watching the legal streams of music-heavy shows, don't both CR and the Japanese licensors ultimately lose out? Because if not enough people watch them, surely that's wasted expense on the licensing and other work?
You never know, the extra cost involved in getting the music rights could cover (or at least be mitigated by) the additional income form ads/subscribers.

* - "By default" meaning that CR could do it with extra effort required to work within the system that fansubbers, by their very nature, sidestep entirely.
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28 / M / San Antonio
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Posted 1/13/14


It isn't always about money. A lot of times the company that owns the rights to the music just flat out refuse to license it for translation.

It isn't a problem with the system, as the system works when the copyright owners are willing to work with distributors.

But when the copyright owners refuse to work with the distributors, or ask for an exorbitant amount of money, the customers trying to do the right thing get screwed.

It's the same reason why Netflix has lost a lot of TV shows and movies over the couple years. Do you really think that Netflix wanted to give up their entire Starz library? Hell no, they desperately wanted to keep the Starz titles and offered as much money as they could to renew the contract, but Starz counter offered with a proposal that Netflix could not even come close to affording. If Starz had agreed to Netflix's offer, we would be enjoying a lot of great Starz movies. The system didn't fail Netflix, it was entirely Starz's fault.

It's also why Hulu still forces you to watch commercials even with a paid subscription, and why the Pirate Bay founders are wrongly accused of being just as dangerous as terrorists and rapists.


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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/13/14

-Chris311- wrote:

It isn't always about money. A lot of times the company that owns the rights to the music just flat out refuse to license it for translation.


True, but it breaks down in this case seeing that the same shows that lack song-subs on streams do get song-subs for home-releases. So it is less of a "flat refusal" and something, evne if it's not necessarily financial, specific to online streaming.



It isn't a problem with the system, as the system works when the copyright owners are willing to work with distributors.

But when the copyright owners refuse to work with the distributors, or ask for an exorbitant amount of money, the customers trying to do the right thing get screwed.


Which itself, to me, points out a problem with the system that effectively rewards piracy.

To me, if a pice of music is a part of a show or film it is an intrinsic part of the show or film. Only selectively allowing rights and effectively setting a high bar for subtitles lyrics for music is just inexcusable.

Granted, I have a slightly odd perspective on this. My girlfriend is moderately deaf. Trust me, watching Empire Records with a deaf person when the songs don't get subtitled, even when the characters are singing along puts this all in a different perspective.

Paraphrasing my sig, "If it can be heard, it needs to be read".

And back to the point of this thread, in idol-based shows the music is every bit as much a part of the episodes as the dialogue is. If CR can't do the songs, why even pick up the shows? Do the full experience or just dont' bother. (Ditto for overly censored shows)
The Wise Wizard
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Posted 1/13/14

TiggsPanther wrote:

If CR can't do the songs, why even pick up the shows? Do the full experience or just dont' bother. (Ditto for overly censored shows)

You do realize this is a rather self-centric view, don't you?

Some people appreciate listening to the music, whether they can read the lyrics or not. Some people actually will watch programs for the story, not the (sometimes badly censored) nipples and crotch shots.

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Posted 1/13/14

TheAncientOne wrote:

You do realize this is a rather self-centric view, don't you?


Actually, no I don't. Not really, anyway.
If a song is part of the story, it needs to be there.
If someone's singing, it doesn't make any sense to not know what they're singing about.

And because so many opening and ending themes these days are basically form the character's point of view, they're a part of the show. That's the point I don't get.Only doing an incomplete translation. It defies all logic to me.

Experiencing song lyrics, and comtimessinging along, to me are a rather important part of the experience. I can't separate them form the rest of the show.


Some people appreciate listening to the music, whether they can read the lyrics or not. Some people actually will watch programs for the story, not the (sometimes badly censored) nipples and crotch shots.



Censorship's slightly different, too.

As a general rule, it's not that I particularly want to see the nipples or crotch shots, it's that the effects used are glaringly out of place. They dohn't blend in, they stand out. They practically scream "I am added after the fact".

And in the case of So, I Can't Play H there is at least one example of a shot that, although crude, really was a vital plot point. Something in episode one that didn't quite make sense to me when i saew it on CR made perfect sense when I grabbed an uncensored version. It completely changed a character's motivation ina certian scene and, although still makign him out to be a massive perv, made him out to actually be quite clever and observant.

I do "watch programs for the story". But that means I like to take in every aspect, audio and visual, good and bad. Missing lyrics, clumsy censorhip and overly vague translations all have one thing in common. They actually break me out of a story in a very jarring fashion.
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Posted 1/13/14 , edited 1/13/14

TiggsPanther wrote:

Which itself, to me, points out a problem with the system that effectively rewards piracy.

To me, if a pice of music is a part of a show or film it is an intrinsic part of the show or film. Only selectively allowing rights and effectively setting a high bar for subtitles lyrics for music is just inexcusable.


Again, that isn't a fault of the system. The system is not what is causing the music to be a separate piece, nor is the system the cause for the exorbitant amount of money demanded by the music copyright holders. The copyright holders can choose to include the music translation as part of the shows licensing or they can choose to sell the license at a reasonable price. The system allows for that.

What you are wanting is a system that takes rights away from copyright holders and forces them to do whatever the distributors want.


Granted, I have a slightly odd perspective on this. My girlfriend is moderately deaf. Trust me, watching Empire Records with a deaf person when the songs don't get subtitled, even when the characters are singing along puts this all in a different perspective.


This issue of not providing subtitles for music in a movie or show isn't new. There are plenty of shows that I have seen on Netflix and on TV where they do not caption the songs. They sometimes display music symbols and then show the name of the song. More often I see this when it is a non english song. Sometimes you don't even get the name of the song, but instead a more generic "Spanish music starts playing" message.



Paraphrasing my sig, "If it can be heard, it needs to be read".


I agree with you 100%, but what I am doing is trying to help direct your attention to who actually controls what gets subtitled and what does not. Crunchyroll has no control over it, so directing your anger at them isn't going to solve anything. You should be directing your anger at the companies that produce and own the songs you want subtitles for as they are the ones who ultimately have control over what people can do with them.


And back to the point of this thread, in idol-based shows the music is every bit as much a part of the episodes as the dialogue is. If CR can't do the songs, why even pick up the shows? Do the full experience or just dont' bother. (Ditto for overly censored shows)


Crunchyroll won't pick up a show if they feel that there won't be enough viewers to make money off of it. Since Crunchyroll has already simulcasted multiple idol anime, that means the demand is there for people who want to watch idol anime without the songs being subtitled.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/13/14

-Chris311- wrote:

What you are wanting is a system that takes rights away from copyright holders and forces them to do whatever the distributors want.


Nah. Just what the viewers want.

To give a slightly less flippant answer, though...

Whether it's foreign-language material or English-HOH subs, viewers generally want to be able to get a full experience via the subtitle track.

Ultimately, not everyone cares about where the decent subtitles come from, just that there are some. but this is just a symptom of the greater problem. Between the licensors and the distributors, noone can come to a decent compromise. Which either results in the viewers getting screwed over, or the viewers screwing them by just finding a more convenient (and less legit) version.

Ultimately, that way, the licensors and distributors both lose out. Not everybody will go grab a torrent but that doesn't mean that people will put up with a substandard product. It just means that some people will keep the moral high ground and just avoid a show that doesn't work for them. But the end result is the same. Less people pay. Less money gets paid.

All I see is two sides wanting a better deal, but ending up worse off.


Sometimes you don't even get the name of the song, but instead a more generic "Spanish music starts playing" message.


That's exactly what Empire Records does, I just was trying to keep my Grand Novel down to a manageable and vaguely on-topic length. ;-)

But yeah. Whenever we watch Empire Records, it really gets on Roiben's nerves. As she can't make out all of the lyrics, if no-one sings along there's no-one to lipread and the subs give the ever-so-unhelpful "Soulful Music Plays".

Then contrast the movie "Push".
First time I watched it with Roiben and put the subs on, t got to a point where we were happy enough to see (WHAT NEW YORK USED TO BE PLAYING)

And then, suddenly the lyrics popped up on screen. Now that is the way to do it.




Paraphrasing my sig, "If it can be heard, it needs to be read".


I agree with you 100%, but what I am doing is trying to help direct your attention to who actually controls what gets subtitled and what does not. Crunchyroll has no control over it, so directing your anger at them isn't going to solve anything. You should be directing your anger at the companies that produce and own the songs you want subtitles for as they are the ones who ultimately have control over what people can do with them.


Except that home video releases do (mostly) include song-subs. So getting lyric rights isn't impossible, otherwise even the home releases wouldn't have them. And as the company involved in acquiring any of the content in the first place, ultimately it is CR's responsibility as to whether they are or are not able to secure the lyric rights.

And even if the rights aren't even an option at all, this is acceptable (just about...) for OP/ED themes. But for a music-heavy show, ultimately is is CR's choice to effectively stream an incomplete version of the show.

Now, I do plan to give Wake Up Girls a go this week. And I'll even give it a go on CR. But I have a standby already to go in case the official version isn't fit for purpose.
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