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Post Reply Sub the Opening/Ending of Anime + Songs (Idol Anime)
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Posted 1/13/14

TiggsPanther wrote:Except that home video releases do (mostly) include song-subs. So getting lyric rights isn't impossible, otherwise even the home releases wouldn't have them. And as the company involved in acquiring any of the content in the first place, ultimately it is CR's responsibility as to whether they are or are not able to secure the lyric rights.

And even if the rights aren't even an option at all, this is acceptable (just about...) for OP/ED themes. But for a music-heavy show, ultimately is is CR's choice to effectively stream an incomplete version of the show.

Now, I do plan to give Wake Up Girls a go this week. And I'll even give it a go on CR. But I have a standby already to go in case the official version isn't fit for purpose.


The industry sees home video releases and simulcasts as two different things. Copyright owners are more willing to license out their works to home video releases since that is what they are use to doing.

Simulcasting is still in its infancy and there are still investors and producers that are not 100% convinced that Crunchyroll's model will work. Because of this, it is harder for Crunchyroll to negotiate.

You make it sound like Crunchyroll does not even try to get permission to subtitle songs, but that isn't the case. CR staff have said in the past that CR tries to get permission to sub songs for every show they simulcast, but are rarely able to strike a deal because of the copyright owners not wanting to compromise. Companies that produce the content are afraid to take any risks with this new business model that Crunchyroll has come up with.

Hopefully, as Crunchyroll keeps on growing, the production companies that hold the copyrights will open up to allowing translations of their music.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/13/14

-Chris311- wrote:

You make it sound like Crunchyroll does not even try to get permission to subtitle songs, but that isn't the case. CR staff have said in the past that CR tries to get permission to sub songs for every show they simulcast, but are rarely able to strike a deal because of the copyright owners not wanting to compromise.

I'm not saying they don't try, I'm just stating that they don't succeed. And, as a result, release an incomplete translation.
And, somehow, an incomplete translation is supposed to be OK?

Maybe it's just me but it genuinely breaks me out of the flow of a show. You reach the opening theme of a show and it's like "And now, time to sit through something you're not being permitted to understand!" It has been known to kill my desire to keep watching. Or to move to the computer, fire up a fansub, watch the fully translated credits, and then return to CR on my TV.

And I get fed up of having to use "other means" just to get a better product. Surely it would be better all around if the legal option was the better product.
Crunchyroll is almost there. it has a large library. it has multi-platform apps. You can just select any available show and (networking allowing) have it just start. No farting about searching for torrents. No waiting for a download to complete. But this is one thing that it cannot compete on. And that's a shame.
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Posted 1/13/14 , edited 1/13/14


Well, apparently it is okay as CR keeps simulcasting these types of shows.. They still get enough viewers to warrant licensing more idol anime for simulcast, even with incomplete subtitles.

As long as people continue to watch the shows, CR is going to continue to license them.

Why punish those those who can still enjoy the show without the songs being subtitled? IMO, having the show without translated songs is still better than not having the show at all.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/14/14
Well, for some of you clearly "getting it at all" is better than "not getting it at all". For some of us, though, "partial experience" isn't really that much better than "no experience".

It's the same argument people give here in the UK when some shows aren't viable for a Blu-ray release owing to audience size and production costs. "Surely DVD-only is better than not getting it?" Usually said by people who are happy with the status-quo.

The thing is, especially in this case, if CR (and other streamers) keep capitulating over song-subs, the short-term "advantage" is that Well, at least the shows are still coming out in some form. But, in the long term, nothing will change as, after all, the shows are still selling.

And the real problem is that the only way I can see even a chance of things changing is that if lyrics rights became A Sticking Point In Negation.
Crunchyroll ultimately could try to do something to change things but, yes, they'd have to throw the currently-content members under the bus to do so.

And, ultimately, as long as there are people out there who think that "good enough" is good enough, things will never improve.
The Wise Wizard
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56 / M / U.S.A. (mid-south)
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Posted 1/14/14

TiggsPanther wrote:

The thing is, especially in this case, if CR (and other streamers) keep capitulating over song-subs, the short-term "advantage" is that Well, at least the shows are still coming out in some form. But, in the long term, nothing will change as, after all, the shows are still selling.

You seem to believe that these companies, many of which had to be convinced to license their titles for streaming in the first place, would now bend their policies in order to continue that marginal income.

You also overlook the matter of CR not being the only streaming outlet. If CR adopted a "censoring and subtitles for all music or no license" policy, one of two things would result: No simulcast anywhere, or a license elsewhere under the same terms that existed, In the worst case, studios could always stream on Daisuki, which is owned by studios, and thus certainly isn't going to buck their policies.

These companies really don't need streaming in order to survive. It is a nice marginal income, but at this point it is still something they can do without.
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39 / M / Surrey, UK
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Posted 1/14/14
Funny, I thought that piracy/fansubs is what the industry could really do without.

Streaming sites (including but not only Crunchyroll) could easily supplant fansubs to the point where hardly anybody at all wants to use them.

Instead, issues (including, but not limited to songsubs) give a convenient reason for people to keep relying on fansubs. And, therefore, keeping the fansubbers and the cappers and uploaders Japan-side busy.
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Posted 1/14/14 , edited 1/14/14

TiggsPanther wrote:

Well, for some of you clearly "getting it at all" is better than "not getting it at all". For some of us, though, "partial experience" isn't really that much better than "no experience".

It's the same argument people give here in the UK when some shows aren't viable for a Blu-ray release owing to audience size and production costs. "Surely DVD-only is better than not getting it?" Usually said by people who are happy with the status-quo.

The thing is, especially in this case, if CR (and other streamers) keep capitulating over song-subs, the short-term "advantage" is that Well, at least the shows are still coming out in some form. But, in the long term, nothing will change as, after all, the shows are still selling.

And the real problem is that the only way I can see even a chance of things changing is that if lyrics rights became A Sticking Point In Negation.
Crunchyroll ultimately could try to do something to change things but, yes, they'd have to throw the currently-content members under the bus to do so.

And, ultimately, as long as there are people out there who think that "good enough" is good enough, things will never improve.


No one here is saying that unsubtitled songs are "good" enough. I am merely pointing out that the alternative of not even streaming the show doesn't solve anything either. How could Crunchyroll change things when they have no control? Crunchyroll is on YOUR SIDE, so I am not sure why you keep posting like as if Crunchyroll is against your idea of translating songs in anime. As I already mentioned more than once, Crunchyroll would LOVE to translate the songs. Crunchyroll does not have the power to change anything at this point.

Let me put this into perspective. Lets say that you are tired of paying $3 a gallon for gas and would much rather pay $2 a gallon for gas. Which do you think is a better idea? Complaining to franchise owner of your local gas station, or writing a letter to your congress representative?

The amount of money CR makes for the anime studios is only a small fraction of their total revenue. As I said already, legal simulcasting is still in the infancy stage, and we are lucky just to even have what we currently have. Is it everything we want? Of course not. Will it get better in the future? As long as more members keep signing up for paid subscriptions, Crunchyroll will be able to offer more and more features. Maybe even one day they will prove to be a big enough asset to the anime and music studios in the Japan that they have a greater influence on what they can do.

If you don't like the idol anime not having the songs translated, don't watch them. Meanwhile, the people who would prefer to watch the show without translated songs vs not watching the show at all, can still enjoy the show on CR.

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Posted 1/14/14

TiggsPanther wrote:

Funny, I thought that piracy/fansubs is what the industry could really do without.

Streaming sites (including but not only Crunchyroll) could easily supplant fansubs to the point where hardly anybody at all wants to use them.

Instead, issues (including, but not limited to songsubs) give a convenient reason for people to keep relying on fansubs. And, therefore, keeping the fansubbers and the cappers and uploaders Japan-side busy.


The anime industry makes most of their money from Japanese sales. They barely make any money outside of Japan.

Fansubs are made for people who the anime studios never even planned on selling anime to in the first place, so fansubs have little effect on their bottom end.

The reason fansubs started was because people outside Japan couldn't buy anime even if they wanted. The only option at the time was spending a lot of money on importing anime titles and learning Japanese.
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Posted 1/15/14
Well, it seems like Wake Up Girls has the insert songs translated. Although not the OP (same track?) and ED.

Still, at least they were allowed to sub the actual in-episode content - which is what matters. It would have had a different feel without them.
Although, in this particular case, seeing that the actual girls did a "live action" promo specifically for CR, I suspect that this is a slightly non-standard case.

Aah well. Non-standard or not, it got it right.
People who like song-subs can see them. People who are indifferent can see or ignore them at will. And people who dislike subtitles... probably aren't on CR? ;-)
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Posted 1/16/14

-Chris311- wrote:

You make it sound like Crunchyroll does not even try to get permission to subtitle songs, but that isn't the case. CR staff have said in the past that CR tries to get permission to sub songs for every show they simulcast, but are rarely able to strike a deal because of the copyright owners not wanting to compromise. Companies that produce the content are afraid to take any risks with this new business model that Crunchyroll has come up with.

Maybe they did when they were starting up, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case anymore (at least for OP/EDs). My interpretation is that they see it as not being worth the time / money to get the extra license.

Obtaining permission to sub music would be quite difficult for many series, but there are other times where it shouldn't be that hard. For example, Media Factory has their own record label which they use to distribute the music for their series. For Media Factory simulcasts CR would be dealing with the same party (or at least a branch of the same party) so I'm sure they would be able to get the rights if they tried.

That being said I actually prefer having no OP/ED subs so I'm glad my money isn't being wasted on music translations.
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Posted 1/16/14 , edited 1/16/14
Or it could be that Media Factory is one of those copyright holders that do not want to license out translations for the songs they own, or they ask for an exorbitant amount of money for the licenses making it too expensive for CR too afford. (IE, not worth their money, which is not the same thing as saying that CR does not want to translate the songs, it just means that they don't want to have to pay an unfair fee to do so). Media Factory was hesitant just to allow the shows to be streamed in the first place.

Lets say that you really love donuts, but the closest donut shop is 1 hour away and the donuts cost $50 per dozen. If you never buy donuts, that doesn't mean you don't like donuts, that just means you don't want to drive for 1 hour to buy very expensive donuts. The donut shop would be happy to sell you donuts, just as long as you drive to their shop and pay their price. Its the same with obtaining licenses. Some copyright holders will build a donut shop closer to your home and offer cheaper prices, and some just couldn't be bothered with making their donuts more accessible to more people as they feel that their donuts are only good enough for the people that can afford them.

I'll lean towards believing what CR staff has said.
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Posted 1/16/14 , edited 1/16/14
I don't know about donuts.... (OK, I do, but I have places nearby)

But...

Well, looking at my recent Anime purchases, some of them being US or Australian releases, at a higher prices and with international shipping costs attached, I am a firm believer in paying extra to get a full quality product when one isn't available.
(Some titles are DVD-only here in the UK. once again, down to business cost. Once again, doesn't make the available product "good enough" for everyone)

And, personally, it's not that I don't believe that the CR staff are lying. more that I think that the system is broken and the conclusion in wrong.
Music is every bit as much a part of the overall product as the art and dialigue. Yet it has to be negotiated separately for different release types? it just seems illogical.

Right or wrong, CR are competing with fansubs here. And, personally, I'd rather a legal service I'm paying for gave me a better experience than a "free" illegal download.
Is there really something wrong with wanting the legal product to not be incomplete?
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Posted 1/17/14
I never said there was anything wrong with what you are wanting. I even agreed with you that having the songs subtitled is better. You seem to be going in circles and avoiding, or just ignoring, the points I have made.


You have absolutely every right to ask for a better product, but your demands are being directed to the wrong organization. As I said earlier, you can't expect your local gas station to be able to lower the price of gasoline, you have to complain to the people that have actual power to do something. The problem is that these Japanese companies are scared to change things. Many of them are on the brink of bankruptcy (several of them have gone bankrupt in the past few years). They want to just continue doing what they know works for them, and any kind of new content delivery system (like Crunchyroll) is going to be looked at as just a "side" project to expirement with for now. Only when this type of business model can really prove to be a big money maker will the studios be more open with their licensing. But for now, their number one priority is protecting their assets rather than sharing them.

Contact the studios that license out their content explaining to them that you would enjoy their products a lot more if the songs were made available with a translation in your favorite anime show.

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Posted 6/7/14 , edited 6/7/14
I Think that if Crunchyroll posted information links to the companies so that we may email them our interest in having said songs subtitled and had these links up on the main page as a kind of campaign to get these rights included the companies will listen. However it will require large amounts of emails asking for these rights to be made available and/or make the cost of getting the rights (for streaming purposes only) more down to earth.

I think that this may be the best solution in changing the status quo.
hopfully in the near future this may happen!
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