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The Holocaust Question
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22 / M / Delaware
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Posted 1/20/14
This is the dumbest forum I've ever seen... even on CR.
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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/21/14
To say that this is the Dumbest Forum Even is a Misnomer.

1 - This is a Thread in a Forum - The Forum itself is Extended Discussion

2 - While the Topic may be full of Misconceptions, this thread still servers to remind people that the Holocaust Really did happen.

The reason I say that this thread does serve a purpose is because of all the ignorant fools out there who keep denying that it ever happened or are too young to really believe that it really did happen.

And yes, I am shaking myself while typing this!

Hitler was Austrian, not German and he took advantage of the people of Germany, ruling them in two ways.
One was with false promises (political brainwashing) and the other was through fear. Then there were the greedy, power hungry fools who just wanted power of their own.

The reason I say fear is because if you wear found not to be a supporter of Hitler, several things happened. Others were supposed to shun you. They were not to acknowledge you at all. You could be arrested and kept in a concentration camp. You could be deported to other parts of the world.

I know this first hand because me and my sisters are first generation Americans. Our mother is from Germany as is her mother.

We never knew our Grandfather as he never married our Grandmother. We were always told that he died of an unfortunate accident during training maneuvers before our mother was born. This was before the United States became involved in the World war. My mother was born in May of 1938.

Later, I forget how much later, we also heard that he had died on the Russian Front. We never knew what to believe.

But one thing was sure, if anyone ever used the word "Nazi" our mother would lecture them on the differences between a German soldier and a Nazi. Just because someone is German does not make them a Nazi. There are two types of Nazis, there is the Political Party, then there is the Nazis who were the Elite soldiers, the direct supports of Hitler. The rest were just every day common soldiers who were following orders whether they liked it or not.

Both in Civilian life and in the Armed forces, there was fear because one never knew who was a spy. That is to say a Nazi dressed to look like them or just someone loyal to the Nazis.

When my Grandmother (we all called her Mutti) died, I found out from one of my sisters who had recently found out from one of our Aunts that our Grandfather had supposedly survived the war, married and had a daughter. I have tried to find any information I could on him, but I have not been able locate much of any information.

But some of what I have been able to find out has been disturbing to say the least.

Our mother was the direct result of the Nazi Breeding Program.
Our Grandfather was a Commanding officer under Hitler - He was one of 100 Recipients of the Gold Star

Our Grandmother and Grandfather met in 1937 at a dance which is where she got pregnant. She did keep in contact for a long time with his mother. From what I understand, they never did get married because back then, soldiers save their money to use for their promotions.

From what I've been told Mutti never did support what Hitler was doing and she refused to Sieg Heil. This caused her to be shunned and made it difficult for her to get by. Later on she married a Polish Colonel and this was the last straw as the family was put in a concentration camp, then later on deported to Miami, Florida.

My family came here about a month after the disaster of the SS Flying Enterprise - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Flying_Enterprise

This was just before my mother's 14th birthday when they were deported. But the area where we now live our Grandmother chose it because it reminds her of the Swiss Alps.

There is much I could tell you of the stories of life over in Germany during the War and things that both our Grandmother and especially our mother had to endure, but I won't because much of it is way too personal and painful to put out there.

As it is, growing up here in the United Stats in the late 60's & early 70's was really painful. Because the war was still fresh in everyone's minds and me & my sisters had strong German accents because of our mother. We used to get bullied a lot, called names including "Nazi" and I would get beat up a lot for no reason by more than one kid at a time. We also had to have Speech therapy class because back then it was unacceptable to have a German accent as a child here in the States.

Thinking back to my past is really painful for me.

Also to think of what Hitler did to Germany and what it might have been like had our family never had to leave Germany. All the things that might have been or could have been.
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20 / M / Cardiff,Wales
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Posted 1/22/14
Let me try to answer since I love everything WW2 related.

Firstly you have to take into consideration that this issue is a much heated topic and is still debated up until this day, the general consensus is that the Holocaust did occur to the extent that the media portrays it today. Around 50,000-55,000 (+/-3000) Nazis took part in the extermination of the Jews and thus only those Nazis can be held responsible if the Holocaust did indeed happen the way that we have generally learn it in Educations systems across Europe. However before we go into further details I'll lay out when the Holocaust occurred. So historians all over the earth usually split the Holocaust into multiple phases or parts, from Persecution to Ghettoization to Genocide. That is how it's split up, we begin with the Prosecution that started when Hitler came to power as a chancellor in January 1933, Ghettoization began in 1939 and the Genocide itself occurred between June 1941 to 1945. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the Genocide did indeed occur, eyewitnesses, documents, testimonies and statements given by SS staff, so I don't doubt that it happened myself, however I do not think the Holocaust played out the way we learn it today, I don't think someone who is as intelligent as the Nazi high command would do something like that without a more meaningful purpose. Whatever the purpose maybe, I hate how the media always says 'Germans' when referring to anything relating to WW2, they really need to ante up their game and change it to 'Nazi German' when talking about the Holocaust and German for almost everything else, since there were more Germans than Nazi Germans. Also there were not all that many full on Nazis in the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe or the Kriegsmarine.
But to sum it all up, yes the Holocaust happened, but no there must've been another meaning to it than the simple 'ethnic cleansing' that we were taught.
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52 / M / In
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Posted 1/22/14
It happen nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise. The numbers don't matter the act alone is proof of evil. These people were no threat to Germany none at all. I go on Yourtube and the Neo-Nazi's and the Holocaust deniers and Nazi apologest and sorry to say but a lot of Muslims say Well Stalin and Moa did worst well yeah they did but that doesn't make the Holocaust any less a tragedy.
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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/22/14
Back during that time in the world, things were far different from how they are now.

People were different, they thought differently, there was no internet, no instant gratification where everything you want is at your fingertips as it currently is today. There were no computers, instead, computer was a human job description. science hadn't yet evolved as far as it has today and a lot of advanced science (what little they had) which is common place these days would have been top secret back then.

So when you're saying someone "as intelligent as the Nazi high command would do something like that without a more meaningful purpose"

You are basically thinking of them in modern day terms without truly understanding how people lived and thought back then.

Yes they had a higher purpose. It was for Hitlers vision of the future of Germany and the Aryan race. In Berlin, you can still find remains of the Construction of The Avenue of Splendours which was never finished which also consists of an underground highway (never finished). Hitler's city was supposed to be Germania or Welthauptstadt Germania as it was later to be known as.

In their eyes, Hitler's vision of Germany was what mattered and the fact that they considered themselves the Master Race.

When you take and mix Nazi spys in with the populace or even the common soldiers, this creates fear which in turn creates loyalty least one get's accused of treason and losses one's life.

There was no cell phones, no internet, no Twitter, no Facebook, no MySpace or anything else which people could have used back then to thwart such Nazi Spies.

Back then, fear was a real thing which could be used to control people. Also it was very easy to manipulate people using what has come to be called the propaganda machine, just feed the people false promises, then just lie to them outright and even tell them what they want to hear. They had no way of knowing or finding out the truth as information traveled slowly those days and could be control by governments.

But as you say, there were the German people, then there were the Nazis

But remember, there were two groups of Nazis, one is the Political Party and the other is Hitler's Elite Soldiers who were his direct supporters.


aGreekSudanese


You're 17, there's a lot in life you may not understand yet and you have a long life ahead of you (hopefully).
People don't need any reason to do the things they do. Some people do things just because they feel like it. Some because they just enjoy the feel of power, others just because they can get away with it. There are all kinds of reasons for doing things, but the biggest reason is you don't need a reason to do anything.

If you want to get a general idea that may help you deal with understanding some of this, then I have an idea which may be a bit hard for you. But in the end, you will have a better understanding and hopefully you'll also appreciate what you have even more.

You may not be able to do it now, but maybe this coming summer would be a good time for you to try this.

I assume you're in a city?

Get out of the city a find a small town where you could stay for say a month and I mean a small, spread out town. During this time period, forget about any Television, no computer, no cell phone, no game console, no microwave oven, no fast food such as McDonalds or other fast Food restaurants. No frozen or ready made dinners from a can.

Use a radio for your entertainment and news. you can use a recorder (no ear buds or head phones) with old radio shows on it seeing as a lot of those shows are no longer aired any more.

During this time, you would be expected to live as someone from back then would have. Preparing your own foods, listening to the radio for your news. Go for walks to get fresh air, maybe go to see a movie at the theatre or go fishing. you could get yourself a job for the duration while you're there, maybe even extending your stay for the entire summer. If you do get a job, make sure it's not one that uses computers or cell phones or other modern conveniences. Diners, restaurants, possibly a hardware store, a garage or even farming would be good sources of work.

I guarantee by the time you go back to your regular life using the cell phone & internet along with everything else that you will have an entirely different outlook on life and hopefully you'll be able to view the Holocaust differently.

-

Now there is one other thing which could also have an direct standing on Hitler's behavior.

He was obsessed by what some would call the occult. Germany has some well documented historical UFO sitings and not just sitings, but witnessing of battles between UFOs. These sitings were not in modern times either as they were long ago. There are historical paintings of these incidents and there are historical records too.

So Hitler was mainly fascinated with anything to do with mythology that would lead to any source of new power. Which is why his henchmen searched old sites around the world for what ever they could find in this regard.

I'm sure you heard of the "Bell"

Hitler had his scientists working on a supposed Antigravity device as word would have it, possibly a new type of propulsion device. But all reports say that the bell disappeared along with everyone there. It was highly radioactive too and one of the ingredients in it was mercury.
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52 / M / In
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Posted 1/22/14


ummm I don't even.....WHAT?????? can you sum it up?

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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/23/14

uncletim wrote:

ummm I don't even.....WHAT?????? can you sum it up?



Basically I was just providing some outline for CR member aGreekSudanese of two things....

That you can't apply modern view points (his own life experience) towards the past, cause things were vastly different back then which also affected how people thought about things.

Two, while they did not really need a reason for doing what they did, in their point of view they did have their reasons. Reasons none of us can agree with.

The Holocaust is one thing that none of us can justify and it was very real.

Hitler brought about his own downfall through his own madness.
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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/23/14 , edited 1/23/14
Last night I had a hard time sleeping because I worried about how I worded my previous post.

I'm not always very good with words or with people either but I do know what I'm doing and what I want to get across even though I may be misunderstood at times.

I feel one of the reasons people have a hard time accepting the Holocaust as having happened the way it did along with everything else under Nazi Germany is because of how much the world has changed and how interconnected it has become.

These days people almost constantly have their cell phones with them and you see them talking almost all the time, even while driving, eating in a restaurant, or what ever else they may be doing. Plus don't forget texting and using the computer.

People have forgotten what the world was like back then and can't even comprehend a world with out any modern conveniences.

So because of this they have a hard time understanding how any of this could possibly have happened.

My family is from Germany and I have heard plenty of stories of what went on during the war over there. An allied bomb dropped in my mothers back yard when she was little.

So of course I advised aGreekSudanese to take some time away from any modern conveniences some he could better understand what happened from a different frame of mind.

Cause these days, everything is taken for granted and young people can't understand why things played out the way they did.
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20 / M / Cardiff,Wales
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Posted 1/23/14
@TimesPast
Not to be offensive or rude in any way shape or form, but I don't need to take a 1 month vacation without any technology to understand the way people thought and lived back throughout the 30s and 40s. I already know how they acted and thought since I devote a lot of my time spending learning about WW2 and I don't think my age has anything to do with the understanding of the Holocaust.
There is no logical reason to believe or think that Hitler and the rest of the high command wanted to exterminate an entire 'race' purely for the sake of 'cleaning' the Reich and to continue to develop their 'Aryan race'. I am no Nazi apologetic, but there clearly was another reason for the Holocaust to have occurred. I respect other people's opinions, but they should acknowledge my opinion as well.
'Cause these days, everything is taken for granted and young people can't understand why things played out the way they did.' That's pretty stereotypical of you and a little insultive as well, given the fact that you know nothing about me (Except maybe what is written on my profile page).
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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/23/14
I apologize if that is the way I came across as that is not the way I meant it and yes, I don't know you as the only real way to know someone is to get to know them is in person.

As you say, there is no logical reason.

Hitler himself is someone who the world would have been better off if he never existed.

Studying about something and experiencing are two different things entirely. While studying can give you an understanding of something, it's the experience itself that tends to give one more of an appreciation and hopefully a better understanding of what ever one may have been studying. By saying this I am not trying to be insulting and I am sure you yourself can think of instances where you can apply this to things you have learned in the past. If so, then you should be able to understand why I said that.

I had just meant that if you had decided to take up the challenge of going without modern conveniences for a short period of time, it might give you a better understanding of your studies. In other words, a different outlook.

When I say people take tend to take things for granted. This is literally true. Try getting people you know to go a week without texting or without using their cell phone or their computer. This is something most people would struggle with because they are so accustomed to the lifestyle.

I guess "LifeStyle" is a word I should have used previously to prevent any misunderstanding.

Oh well, I really did not want for any of this to happen as I did not intend to offend anyone or stir anyone up either.

I'm not very good with words or with saying what I mean to say correctly so one can properly understand what I wanted to say without misunderstanding.

I tend to hold back from posting in forums from fear of upsetting others or of getting flamed because of others not understanding me.

I am more of a social outcast and always have been as I have always struggled with Aspergers.

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone as that was not my intention.
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Posted 1/23/14
@TimePast
No need to apologize.
I want to talk about this some more:
'Hitler himself is someone who the world would have been better off if he never existed.'
I think that history benefited in some ways by Hitler's existence, I mean look at all the technological breakthroughs and all the cultural breakthroughs that WW2 allowed to take place, racial awareness was growing far larger in the U.S. and across the globe. Of course there are bad aspects to his existence such as the Holocaust etc. But if we consider short+long terms effects of his existence I'd argue that he benefited history more than he worsened it.
In regards to this:
'Studying about something and experiencing are two different things entirely.'
I agree with you, however drawing conclusions from historical information is still valid and since we can't literally 'relive' through the time (and not many want to really) we have to rely on the evidence we have at hand. I think by challenging pre-existing ideals and conclusions you can re-affirm in what you believe in or find a different/new opinion on that topic.
'I had just meant that if you had decided to take up the challenge of going without modern conveniences for a short period of time, it might give you a better understanding of your studies. In other words, a different outlook.'
Whilst it's true that it may give me a different outlook on the issue, I already discussed this issue with a lot of people since I talk to a lot of people and there is no real general consensus and each person has a different viewpoint about the topic as well (Talk to a lot of WW2 fans and WW2 Flight sim gamers etc.). To me it seems that way, but of course I can see why you'd think the way you think about it.
Again, no need to apologize, being a social outcast ,in my opinion can be a pretty cool thing, you have a unique viewpoint about different topics and a different insight on topics, I always welcome change and variation :)
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51 / M / United States
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Posted 1/23/14
It's not just the way I think about things as I grew up in a time before cell phones and the internet were common place.

I watched the First moon landing on a 26" Black & White Zenith console TV, Telephones still had cords on the hand sets and you still had the option of party lines which is where you share the same line with other households. I still remember the Urban Renewal Project which is when whole sections of some cities where demolished in the states for new construction.

There are a lot of things that have changed since I was young and I see it every day.

But yes, as you said, there are some positive things that did come out of all this. There is no disputing any of that. It's just a shame that the benefits had to come at such a high cost. Then again, war always brings about change and new technologies. Technologies which can be beneficial or harmful depending on how they are applied as the military usually gets prioritization with funding so they can develop what they need to get the job done.

As it is for years, I always used to get up in arms when I heard anyone call Germans Nazis and I still do to this day. I got the habit from my mother and I tell the the difference between a German and a Nazi. I always believed what I had been told about my grandfather too and always told people that my family never supported Hitler only to find out after my Grandmother died that my Grandfather was a Commanding Officer under Hitler. I don't even know his full name, only part of his name as I can't find any information on him other than that he was awarded the Gold Cross.

I'm just thankful I didn't live in those times.
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Posted 1/23/14

dankuuwut wrote:

I think that the world has a lot more uneducated retards than it has jews connected in conspiracy on a collective subconscious level to take over the world. But, of course, convincing them of that, is kind of like convincing the men wearing tin foil hats that they might belong in the cuckoo's nest. It ain't gonna happen.

But, I mean, look at it optimistically: At least they put jews at an extreme intellectual level, far beyond what any ordinary human is capable of. It's like the worst insult in history. In one hand it's hysterical, and in the other it's sad. It's kind of awesome.

Almost as awesome as this little piece of Norse religion: "The gods and goddesses assemble at a thing and debate how to solve the problem. The god Heimdallr proposes to dress Thor up as a bride, complete with bridal dress, head-dress, jingling keys, jewelry, and the famous Brísingamen. Thor objects but is hushed by Loki, reminding him that the new owners of the hammer will soon be settling in the land of the gods if the hammer isn't returned. Thor is dressed as planned and Loki is dressed as his maid. Thor and Loki go to Jötunheimr."

Only northmen high out of their minds on liberty cap mushrooms could possibly creature such an awesome religion, that is both hysterical and sad at the same time. And yes, I am comparing hallucinogen druggies to people whom perversely rejects historical evidence and advocates culturally inherited demigod-ism.





Syndicaidramon wrote:

There is no debate within the academic community whether the Holocaust really happened or not.
Just as how there is no debate within the academic community that the earth is round, that the moon-landing really happened or that evolution is real. Everyone agrees to it.

The only ones that does not agree, are ignorant fools (or idiots) who have no idea of what they are talking about.





1peace wrote:

First of all, I'm writing this while trying to control myself, because this is definitely the dumbest and most ignorant forum on this site. I, myself, am Jewish and am extremely offended by the idiocy of the person who started this forum. In fact MY GRANDPA'S FAMILY WAS KILLED BY A NAZI RAID IN POLAND! How dare you even suggest the holocaust didn't happen! I can give you my Grandpa's number and he'll explain to you what happened and why he moved to the US. There is no debate and there never has been! Human beings can do evil things, that's just the way life is.

How can you ignore the countless photos, videos, documents, and eye witness stories from people in concentration camps. I've met with a holocaust survivor named Zvi when I was young. He has an excellent book describing the events that happened to him backed by factual evidence. The name of the book is also his name "Zvi", I highly suggest you read it.

I'm glad to see that most people replying to this forum are not so ignorant. And yes, Hitler's intention was purely racist and wanted to utterly destroy my people. Hopefully one day you'll open your eyes and stop fooling yourself into believing lies.



A lot people forget that the number of Holocaust victims is estimated at 11 million people.. 6 million being Jews and another 5 million that everyone seems to leave out.
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20 / M / Cardiff,Wales
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Posted 1/24/14 , edited 1/24/14

crazysouthsider wrote:
A lot people forget that the number of Holocaust victims is estimated at 11 million people.. 6 million being Jews and another 5 million that everyone seems to leave out.

A lot of people also seem to forget the number of other civilians that died horrificly, e.g. over 10 million Chinese civilians died and if we factor in famine and desease caused by war that number is at 15 million. People are far too fixated on 6 million Jews that died during the Holocaust, yes it was genocide and it was brutal, however neglecting the lives of countless of other millions is just wrong in my opinion.
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37 / M / Houston
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Posted 1/25/14
An interesting note, the primary group of people decrying the actual, factual occurrence known as The Holocaust....are Muslims. Apparently Jews are the sworn enemy to this most unholy of cults (Islam). Muslims are taught that Jews wish to destroy Islam. If this is true about Jews....then dammit, I might convert. (currently agnostic)

Yes, the Holocaust happened, period.
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