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Lolicon PSA - An in-depth analysis
Rohzek 
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Posted 2/8/14
I see where Chris Hansen is coming from. And I agree a lot with the Youtube video by Douchebagchocolate (btw, if you haven't watched his series on the original Neon Genesis Evangelion vs. the Rebuild series, I highly recommend it. He has excellent analysis).

What is and isn't moral is very much subjective in a lot of ways (I would argue not entirely though). It's a pretty simple question, but a very deeply philosophical one.

For sure, no one is being harmed in any way, shape, or fashion. The individual is merely attracted to a cartoon character who is well underage. Nevertheless, is the basis for all morality simply that which harms others is wrong? I can see that criteria as very useful for a political philosophy. However, personal morality tends to go a bit further. For example, when a lost child is crying in the middle of a city square and you happen to pass by, you have two options: help the lost child find his/her parents, or walk away. You don't harm the other individual, either choice you make. But I think most of us would agree that helping the kid find their parent(s) or getting a cop to help would be the just and moral thing to do.

I think I have established (however bleakly) some basis for moral realism (which runs counter to the idea that morality is 100% subjective). Furthermore, no one is calling for legislation against this kind of entertainment. And quite frankly, I think it would be the wrong way to approach the issue. Nevertheless, I think it is worth while for Chris and others like Douchebagchocolate to ask the rest of us (the consumer) to pause for a moment and really consider the issue, AND to think to ourselves for a moment if liking such things is really okay.

Now some have suggested that this is an issue on par with violent video games. That's an interesting point. I've played Dishonored over four times now in various ways. I've killed many people in this game very much indiscriminately. For sure, I'm not gonna go out and start killing people in real life. Should I still feel moral guilt though? Honestly, I don't think I should, and I don't actually. So maybe I'm being a hypocrite here. I'm asking others to feel some sort of shame for indulging in something that would be totally wrong in real life, while I don't hold myself to the same standard when it comes to taking a life.

I feel there is some sort of difference, although I can't point it out exactly. Hopefully, psychology would be able to shed more light some day. Maybe its because I just don't see how it is simply possible for someone to feel aroused by sexualized fictional children, and not feel the same way about real world children. That's not to say that it will result in a real world sexual assault, but still the idea of someone thinking like that is a bit disturbing. And there is something to be said for entertainment mediums influencing their audiences. It doesn't mean the audience is gonna turn into a bunch of criminals. It does leave a lasting impression however.
Posted 2/8/14
This is such a presumptuous thread, I don't even know where to start.


So, if I like watching a loli anime (like Lucky Star), that must mean I'm sexually into children? What kind of failed logic?

People like you who want to censor art are the most annoying. Art is art, real life is real life. What I write in my fictional works has nothing to do with real life. If I like writing about rape, I shall do that, I don't need people like you to judge me whether I find rape in real life acceptable.
xxJing 
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Posted 2/8/14
Wow, never realized this was such an issue. I don't enjoy much loli stuff myself, only loli thing I ever really enjoyed was Kodomo no Jikan, but I would rather writers not have to live in fear about how they are going to write a character, it limit's their creativity. I'd prefer that everything existed as an idea, and that people analyze why some ideas are not very practical in a real life setting.

Also I can almost guarantee you that banning loli stuff will have almost no effect on child molestation. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of actual child molesters don't even watch anime.
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31 / M / Waste lands of NY.
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Posted 2/8/14
This thread just got weird with loli rape
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Posted 2/8/14
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with being attracted to younger women. It was common in many societies for women to be married off at ages 12-16. I'm not saying that that's a good idea, but rather, we should give the same respect to younger women that we do to everyone else. It isn't right to make someone feel worthless if one's body isn't "the right shape". Take me for example: Oftentimes when I'm watching an anime, I find myself more attracted to smaller, younger women with more mature personalities than to older, voluptuous women with childish personalities. Does that make me a pedophile? I don't think so.



That being said if you are attracted to prepubescent girls you have a problem and should seek professional help.

I also think that in any art form it's easy to tell between what's smut and what isn't.

Someone also said this earlier but I'd like to reinforce it: What kind of profound knowledge would one hope to gain from a man who calls himself Douchebag Chocolate?
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Posted 2/8/14 , edited 2/8/14

GayAsianBoy wrote:

This is such a presumptuous thread, I don't even know where to start.


So, if I like watching a loli anime (like Lucky Star), that must mean I'm sexually into children? What kind of failed logic?

People like you who want to censor art are the most annoying. Art is art, real life is real life. What I write in my fictional works has nothing to do with real life. If I like writing about rape, I shall do that, I don't need people like you to judge me whether I find rape in real life acceptable.


There is a huge differences between lolis in anime and lolicon. Lolicon by definition features the explicit sexualiztion of prepubescent girls. There is no problem with no lolis in anime. We only have a probably when you are saying it okay for children to be sexually assaulted because its only fantasy. Lucky Star does not even come close to crossing this threshold. Examples in mainstream anime include a 10 year girl being groped/assaulted against her will and joking that she is no longer pure as a running gag in Bakemonogatari. I think part of the problem is people don't properly define what lolicon is, sexualizing and sexually abusing fictional anime children.
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Posted 2/8/14

chrishansen wrote:


GayAsianBoy wrote:

This is such a presumptuous thread, I don't even know where to start.


So, if I like watching a loli anime (like Lucky Star), that must mean I'm sexually into children? What kind of failed logic?

People like you who want to censor art are the most annoying. Art is art, real life is real life. What I write in my fictional works has nothing to do with real life. If I like writing about rape, I shall do that, I don't need people like you to judge me whether I find rape in real life acceptable.


There is a huge differences between lolis in anime and lolicon. Lolicon by definition features the explicit sexualiztion of prepubescent girls. There is no problem with no lolis in anime. We only have a probably when you are saying it okay for children to be sexually assaulted because its only fantasy. Lucky Star does not even come close to crossing this threshold. Examples in mainstream anime include a 10 year girl being groped/assaulted against her will and joking that she is no longer pure as a running gag in Bakemonogatari. I think part of the problem is people don't properly define what lolicon is, sexualizing and sexually abusing fictional anime children.


Pfft. She wanted it all along.

Image is an actual spoiler if you aren't up to date
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Posted 2/8/14 , edited 2/8/14

chrishansen wrote:


GayAsianBoy wrote:

This is such a presumptuous thread, I don't even know where to start.


So, if I like watching a loli anime (like Lucky Star), that must mean I'm sexually into children? What kind of failed logic?

People like you who want to censor art are the most annoying. Art is art, real life is real life. What I write in my fictional works has nothing to do with real life. If I like writing about rape, I shall do that, I don't need people like you to judge me whether I find rape in real life acceptable.


There is a huge differences between lolis in anime and lolicon. Lolicon by definition features the explicit sexualiztion of prepubescent girls. There is no problem with no lolis in anime. We only have a probably when you are saying it okay for children to be sexually assaulted because its only fantasy. Lucky Star does not even come close to crossing this threshold. Examples in mainstream anime include a 10 year girl being groped/assaulted against her will and joking that she is no longer pure as a running gag in Bakemonogatari. I think part of the problem is people don't properly define what lolicon is, sexualizing and sexually abusing fictional anime children.


Perhaps or perhaps the definition has never been that clear, and people who accept the 'lolicon' label for themselves as anime fans do not define it as you do. Rather like Otaku, which has very derogatory connotations of ' unhealthy loser with no life' in Japan but is seen as a badge of honour by some north american anime fans.

As a general rule of thumb I'm against censorship and any effort by one to appoint themselves the guardian or judge of another's thoughts and feelings. That said. if all you're trying to do is provoke thought and engage in dialogue, carry on! Free Speech applies to you too. Just as everyone else here is free to express their opinons about your opinion or just simply ignore you. Isn't freedom great?

Posted 2/8/14
'Sigh'

The problem with bringing up any sort of moral issue on an internet forum (or in normal discussion, for that matter), is that you will invariably be met with a set of responses that subjectivize the topic in question - either out of self defense or some sort of moral relativism - making any sort of headway practically impossible.

I will say that, for the most part, I agree with the YouTube video. But you will be hard pressed to convince average people that ideas can be volatile. In my experience, most subscribe to an (almost dualistic) theory that ideas have no bearing on reality. Most will seperate 3D and 2D very sharply- or at least claim that they do. This is the flip side of the common topic "Can anime make you a better person?" Most people answer "no." Likewise, they will respond the same here when addressing a topic that is close to the inverse.

I'd say this is dealing with an internal moral issue rather than an external one - as mentioned in the video, most lolicons aren't translating that mentality into real life. Since it's an internal issue, i'd say raising awareness is about all one can do. That seems to be the nature of freedom in this modern day and age. If its not "directly" hurting anyone, then most people won't give one iota about the issue. You can force people not to be bad, but on the flip side, you can't really expect people to go beyond the letter of the law. Its a blessing and a curse, i'd say.
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Posted 2/8/14
Isn't this just another "video games turn people into murderers" supplement?
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Posted 2/8/14
so... why is this BLATANTLY OBVIOUS troll post still around, again?
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Posted 2/8/14 , edited 2/8/14
hmmm too long to read it all.

All I know is that there was a 10 year long study of 11,000 children that showed that video games and television do not affect children behaviorally or emotionally.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11/18/games-definitely-dont-harm-kids-says-huge-study

I can conclude from this that having underage fictional cartoon characters depicted in sexual ways does not turn people into child molesters.

Please show me your source that proves that loli's and lolicon makes people want to sexually assault children.

Another thing I want to point out is that the majority of all child molestations are not done by pedophiles. Pedophilia is technically a sexual orientation like being homosexual, and is not a choice. These people want to have legitimate loving relationships with the person they are in love with, they don't want to hurt and scar them by raping or molesting them.
Rohzek 
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Posted 2/8/14 , edited 2/8/14

aidenraine wrote:

so... why is this BLATANTLY OBVIOUS troll post still around, again?


As trollish as it might be, I think it is a topic worth discussing.
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Posted 2/8/14

Rohzek wrote:


aidenraine wrote:

so... why is this BLATANTLY OBVIOUS troll post still around, again?


As trollish as it might be, I think it is a topic worth discussing.


it's a dead horse that's been beaten many times before, and any discussion never goes anywhere. the one group insists that since loli goes against their moral beliefs, which are obviously the only correct ones, that anyone who likes it is a pedophile child molester that should be thrown in a mental institution. the other group thinks those people need to lighten up. it always turns into some kind of flame war. it's a topic better left in the graveyard.
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Posted 2/8/14

Rena-Ryuuguu wrote:

hmmm too long to read it all.

All I know is that there was a 10 year long study of 11,000 children that showed that video games and television do not affect children behaviorally or emotionally.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11/18/games-definitely-dont-harm-kids-says-huge-study

I can conclude from this that having underage fictional cartoon characters depicted in sexual ways does not turn people into child molesters.

Please show me your source that proves that loli's and lolicon makes people want to sexually assault children.

Another thing I want to point out is that the majority of all child molestations are not done by pedophiles. Pedophilia is technically a sexual orientation like being homosexual, and is not a choice. These people want to have legitimate loving relationships with the person they are in love with, they don't want to hurt and scar them by raping or molesting them.


Well, I don't think that it's ok to be sexually attracted to someone that is not mature enough to have or understand sex. I mean, would you have enjoyed sex at age 8? I wouldn't.

As for the evidence, I'd say it would vary from person to person. For some people, loli anime would have no effect on them, but for others, it would. I believe it would be better to use personal judgement on these things rather than call for social action.
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