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Nice guy vs Jerk?
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M / Various
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Posted 2/10/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:



I do believe this post pretty much hits the nail on the head. Fully agree.





Must be nice up on that pedestal, eh? This comes across to me as an elitist type of attitude that basically says "Just change yourself into what I (general use not specific) am and you'll be fine". Sorry but I'd rather be how I am rather than become some prep or jock or whatever you're implying guys should become. Shallow traits like confidence, attractiveness, etc only go so far and are just that shallow. What should matter are deeper traits like being there for the person. Not every one is hardwired to be sociable, nor should they be expected to be to be deemed datable. So far speaking from experience, females do indeed pick the jerks then end up whining about how they got hurt to the 'nice guys'. Its not disrespectful because no one is saying they're forced into it but that they choose it (though admittedly there are exceptions like with everything).


Yes it is nice being up on a pedestal. Of course, I didn't just grow wings and fly up here, or get dropped from the sky onto it. I had to claw my way up with much tears, sweat, sometimes blood and grief in between. Yes, I am saying that if you don't like the results of what you are getting now, change yourself, because the rest of the world isn't going to change in order to provide you with those results. If that makes me elitist, so be it. Like I said WOMEN MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES, if you're not their choice, then maybe you should change/improve yourself so that you become their choice, instead of whining about how you're not getting picked for the starting lineup. You call traits like attractiveness and confidence shallow, but somehow those are the traits deemed important and they seem to matter, quite a bit actually. You are right in that deeper traits, like loyalty, should matter more, and they are more important in the long run, but before you can even get to the point where such traits become relevant, you first need to get into the game. Yes, not everyone is hardwired to be sociable, but you can learn to be sociable. Besides, it's not a bad thing being sociable, and no, it's not a requirement to be sociable to be deemed "datable" but it sure helps in expanding the pool of people that are willing to date you. Oh, and women don't "choose" to date jerks either, they choose to date people they are attracted to and with who they have a connection. In my experience, women go through 2-3 boyfriends before they find one for the long haul. This means they date at least 2-3 "jerks" before they find their "nice guy". Not surprisingly, these "jerks" also happen to become some other girl's "nice guy".

Also, the guy you completely agree with (and I agree with him too), is basically saying the same thing I am. I'm just being a bit more directive about it.
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Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/10/14


And this is where the 'stupidity' of this logic comes into play. Will funny, attractive, or confident in their own skin understand them when they're emotionally torn down? will they be loyal to them and stay by their side? will they understand them? No, these are shallow traits that do nothing on a deeper level. Did I ever say that these traits aren't possible in a 'nice guy'? No, however nice guys usually do have them vs a 'jerk' that doesn't or doesn't care enough to develop them. The idea that someone should have to become some elitist/popular/social douche annoys me to no end, so we're even in that regard. And you're right shallow traits do get you so far cause then you end up tearing the girl/guy apart and the 'nice guy' is the one that has to piece them back together only to be forgotten when the next jerk comes around. I don't expect the world to fall on my lap, I'm not an elitist after all, but I do see the weight in someone being there for others emotionally and loyal to them thus by all logic gaining affection in return. Again I go back to the idea that not everyone is socially hardwired thus not everyone can on with their lives without awkwardness, not everyone is on this confidence pedestal. The quoted person wasn't just saying 'take a shower' they were saying to change your entire self to some idiotic notion of 'attractive' or 'popular' which I despise. I fall for someone it isn't because of how they look or act, I fall for them based on deeper traits (loyalty, caring, similar interests) not "oh that girl has double d's in her shirt" or "she's totally full of herself".



Congrats? You get to be an arrogant tool that sold himself out (not per se an insult just what that pedestal means), I'll stay down here with the muggles and not look down on people cause I have a massive ego. Of course none of that matters since again all of those are shallow traits. The attitude that you're better than others and is the way everyone should be is what makes you elitist. Indeed they do and I'm allowed to have an opinion on how idiotic/illogical that choice is, never did I say females (or any gender) should be forced to be with nice guys. I said that nice guys should be valued more than jerks or seen as better for the reasons I've mentioned before. How society or others view traits does not adjust whether they are 'shallow' or 'deep', a shallow trait will always be shallow regardless of how many fall for it. Again your whole thing is 'change yourself to what we, the popular, see as desirable', well to h3ll with that mentality. I am who I am and I won't change that simply to get into a female's good graces. The guy that you lean on when you're hurting and pieces you back together (the nice guy most of the time) is the one that should earn the love/desire, not the tool that treats you like sh!t and acts like you're just a time waster.

And no the guy I agree with is saying to be how you are and if women don't like it then fine, not to change yourself into the fantasy image.
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Posted 2/10/14
Yeah, I do tend to ramble. And it was slightly dystopian at that. So I'll be super condensed:

Make yourself a better man, because you should. I explicitly stated that it wasn't to get married or people to hop into bed with you. I'm not sure why CrimsonEX thought I was advocating being what everyone wants (if he was referring to me), because actually I'm advocating being the complete opposite. That's the issue of contention that you're taking advantage of here. Exhibit good qualities because you wanted them and developed them yourself, and when women ignore you for it as a complete side-effect of that development, understand that you're battling deeply embedded hypocritical behavior that you cannot win against. This is not a bad thing, because it tells you it never would have worked between you anyway.

For the people who ask "Why should I do that kind of work if I'm still single in the end?" This advice is not meant for you. It's for people who don't want excuses, who understand that you do what you can, and after that you can't do anymore. There is no more correct and comfortable state of strength, and in this case, no more advantageous and just plain ballsy decision if you're going to be single anyway.

I once had a gorgeous, relatively "intelligent" girl tell me that any man who didn't like country music "was simply out." The only way to fight that kind of arbitrary neurosis is to man up and be yourself. If you fail, it's because you had guts and integrity without any excuses. I'll take that kind of failure any day, and I understand (but don't really care) that that is probably not a popular outcome.
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Posted 2/10/14

Nobodyofimportance wrote:


aeb0717 wrote:

Who are those "nice guys/good guys" and "bad boys/jerks" of which you speak? I've yet to meet a guy who I can honestly say fits the stereotype of either. I've always been under the impression that such things only truly apply in fiction, since actual people are multi-faceted. I'd rather die a spinster than deal with either a guy who honestly views himself as one or the other, or a guy who manages to be one-dimensional. Being unabashedly strange, it's not like I mix well with most people, anyway. Maybe I should become the crazy cat lady who lives down the lane from some poor kid? Then again, I'm allergic. Damn. Mutant plants?


Llama?


Fine, but also shinobi llama.
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Posted 2/10/14


Ha. 'The guy you lean on when you're hurting and pieces you back together is the one that should earn the love/desire'. Hilarious. The world owes you nothing bud, if you are who you are then enjoy being entitled. You're saying you won't change to get on a female's good graces, but really all you're doing is you're desperately giving yourself up to them by "being with them" so that one day, they'll see what a great guy you are. Your arguments lead me to believe that you still haven't passed that phase 'nice guys' went through in middle school. This argument will literally go nowhere because you have a childish mentality of all guys being divided into 'nice guys vs jerks' but that's not how the world works. People are dynamic, way more complex than you are imagining. You're desperate and entitled, that's all I see in you, and the worst part is the lack of willingness to look at yourself in the mirror, acknowledge your downfalls, and working on improving them. If you're talking about deep traits, you lack one of the most important ones in maintaining a relationship. So good luck buddy.
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Posted 2/10/14

xCrimsonEX wrote:



And this is where the 'stupidity' of this logic comes into play. Will funny, attractive, or confident in their own skin understand them when they're emotionally torn down? will they be loyal to them and stay by their side? will they understand them? No, these are shallow traits that do nothing on a deeper level. Did I ever say that these traits aren't possible in a 'nice guy'? No, however nice guys usually do have them vs a 'jerk' that doesn't or doesn't care enough to develop them. The idea that someone should have to become some elitist/popular/social douche annoys me to no end, so we're even in that regard. And you're right shallow traits do get you so far cause then you end up tearing the girl/guy apart and the 'nice guy' is the one that has to piece them back together only to be forgotten when the next jerk comes around. I don't expect the world to fall on my lap, I'm not an elitist after all, but I do see the weight in someone being there for others emotionally and loyal to them thus by all logic gaining affection in return. Again I go back to the idea that not everyone is socially hardwired thus not everyone can on with their lives without awkwardness, not everyone is on this confidence pedestal. The quoted person wasn't just saying 'take a shower' they were saying to change your entire self to some idiotic notion of 'attractive' or 'popular' which I despise. I fall for someone it isn't because of how they look or act, I fall for them based on deeper traits (loyalty, caring, similar interests) not "oh that girl has double d's in her shirt" or "she's totally full of herself".



Congrats? You get to be an arrogant douche that sold himself out (not per se an insult just what that pedestal means), I'll stay down here with the muggles and not look down on people cause I have a massive ego. Of course none of that matters since again all of those are shallow traits. The attitude that you're better than others and is the way everyone should be is what makes you elitist. Indeed they do and I'm allowed to have an opinion on how idiotic/illogical that choice is, never did I say females (or any gender) should be forced to be with nice guys. I said that nice guys should be valued more than jerks or seen as better for the reasons I've mentioned before. How society or others view traits does not adjust whether they are 'shallow' or 'deep', a shallow trait will always be shallow regardless of how many fall for it. Again your whole thing is 'change yourself to what we, the popular, see as desirable', well to h3ll with that mentality. I am who I am and I won't change that simply to get into a female's good graces. The guy that you lean on when you're hurting and pieces you back together (the nice guy most of the time) is the one that should earn the love/desire, not the douche that treats you like sh!t and acts like you're just a time waster.

And no the guy I agree with is saying to be how you are and if women don't like it then fine, not to change yourself into the fantasy image.


So, anybody that works his/her ass off to become more successful has automatically sold him/herself out, and they are elitists because they think they are better than everyone else? Well, I guess that means anyone who's more successful than you is an elitist. Well, so be it, honestly I'd rather be an elitist douche than an entitled whiner. It seems you misread the intent of my post, just as you misread the intent of the post that you agreed with (looks like he clarified it bit more, saving me a bit of analysis). You don't need to change yourself, at all. It really doesn't bother me if you want to simply maintain the status quo, honestly, it's not my problem. However, if you're gonna complain about how you're not getting the love or attention you feel you deserve, maybe you should look to yourself first, before blaming all those "shallow women" who will only give those "shallow men" the time of day. It's all about presentation, you don't need to change the content. Not a public speaker, fine, publish an article in the local paper. Not a fighter, join an advocacy group. I'm not saying be someone else, I'm saying be a better version of yourself, and act in a manner that gives others the best presentation of yourself. Can't do that? Well, then crap, I guess you're stuck with waiting for that person that is willing to overlook your lack of good presentation and is willing to stick with you long enough to notice all your deep traits. As for your "lean on when hurting" and "pieces you back together" bit. Really? You think women are that weak? Or that all they have is a guy/boyfriend to do that? Yes, being someone's significant other means being a large part of their support network, but hopefully you're not their only support network (that's just unhealthy in a relationship). Yes, you pick up the pieces when she's falling apart, but her friends pick up some pieces too, so does her family, but ultimately she puts herself back together, because she is her own damn person, you are simply there to support her.
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Posted 2/10/14
*tips fedora*
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Posted 2/10/14

BlackMan35 wrote:



Ha. 'The guy you lean on when you're hurting and pieces you back together is the one that should earn the love/desire'. Hilarious. The world owes you nothing bud, if you are who you are then enjoy being entitled. You're saying you won't change to get on a female's good graces, but really all you're doing is you're desperately giving yourself up to them by "being with them" so that one day, they'll see what a great guy you are. Your arguments lead me to believe that you still haven't passed that phase 'nice guys' went through in middle school. This argument will literally go nowhere because you have a childish mentality of all guys being divided into 'nice guys vs jerks' but that's not how the world works. People are dynamic, way more complex than you are imagining. You're desperate and entitled, that's all I see in you, and the worst part is the lack of willingness to look at yourself in the mirror, acknowledge your downfalls, and working on improving them. If you're talking about deep traits, you lack one of the most important ones in maintaining a relationship. So good luck buddy.


I tried to put it in nicer terms, but this works too!
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Posted 2/10/14
Of course I tend to be a really nice guy. Being a jerk aren't my style. Many girls I've seen likes to date guys who can be jerks cause they're fun. But as theories goes, most jerkish guys relationships with a girl won't last a long time. Girls date nicer guys too. Of course the relationships between the two can last even longer, but getting a girl when you're nice does take a lot of work. Despite most girl meets up with a nice guy trying to do the very best he could to enhance the bond. Eventually, the girl sends the guy into the friend zone, and yes.. It also takes a lot of work escaping the friend zone. And It happens to me back when I was in high school. Had a crush on a girl. however, gets put to the side. The best quote I've seen about this. "Bad boys ain't no good, but good boys ain't no fun" Bad dudes can cause trouble, or even cheats. However, good dudes may be nice, but most girls loses interest cause they're boring. And I've also seen a lot of girls dating guys who can act like jerks. However, acts nice. In other words, They tend to date guys who's "Balanced". Yes. Personality Is huge. As well as confidence. To me.. I remain who I truly am. It's not about how boring you are for a nice person. no matter how boring you are, there's still a chance to shine. Even if we have lack of confidence, we're willing to do our best to have plenty of confidence as we can. All a girl needs, is a true friend. A true friend that cares, heals, and always willing to be by there side. Once that happens, When us and the girl we're with are very close. For sure. Eventually she'll fall In love with us. Although, most of us may have a crush on the girl we've became best friends with. All we have to do is to continue doing are role. And hopefully luck will come to us.
Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/10/14
I prefer being a jerk.
If she can't see through my facade, she's not worth my time.
Besides, I hate putting up a nice guy act.
The nice guy act is for sleazy douchebags.
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Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/10/14
.. if being a jerk is his true self, so be it.

by the way, we can't be really sure if Mr. nice guy would be that nice till the end.

or worse he might transform into the biggest jerk that ever walk on the planet -___________-
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Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/10/14
http://imgur.com/gallery/RmAjE

This comic reminds me of this whole argument.
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Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/10/14

Then I'll take it off of your words and make them my own but still I stand by the sentiment I read out of it. I don't see the need for any person to try to alter themselves to look better to others on a shallow level.



@BlackMan35
Did I ever say that the world owes me anything? No, but being there for someone and helping them piece themselves back together because you actually care, that should by all logic gain you far more than being a jerk (or looking pretty, etc). I don't expect to simply walk into a room and get attention because of who I am. Do you think a jerk (attractive, rich, confident, etc) is entitled to affections just for being that way? No, in fact by being a jerk he deserves to not get the affections. Your completely wrong as I've moved into the "I don't really give a sh!t" phase though I still will debate/argue the illogical nature of it. How I am isn't a 'phase' its how I am and no 'jerk' is not the natural setting, if you are one then you choose to be one just like I choose to be the opposite. And no I realize that its not as simple as 'nice vs jerk' however if you'll look to the title of the thread you'll notice it says "Nice guy vs Jerk?" thus I played within these bounds, this argument will go nowhere because ppl like you view their way as the only way or that everyone should just be like you and thats not acceptable. Again I point you to the title of the thread as to why I'm not expanding the possibles. Please do us both a favor and stfu in regards to what I do or don't see in myself, okay? You don't have a clue what you're talking about in that regard and that doesn't have any effect on this discussion, so as I said stfu. As far as relationships go, if I find someone out there then great and if not then oh well, like I said I'm more apathetic than desperate or whatever.

@antx0r
Did you toss away your own wants, style, hobbies, sense of self in order to become how you are? If so then yes I'd say you're a sell-out, in that you sold out who you were to become someone that you though others would want. By definition elitist means you consider yourself above others or better than them. The difference between you and others above me (whatever that means) is that you are trying to say that your way is better than mine, essentially trying to lay the idea that it is the 'right way' and any others are inferior. I'd rather be a muggle than an arrogant tool so we're even. Entitled implies I expect something from nothing, that I expect women to just simply like me, however thats not the case. I see it as being there for someone being worth far far more than simply some shallow trait. Then by that logic I guess all women should get implants + various other plastic surgeries cause its the same basic principle just transferred from one gender to the other. You seem to really have this idea that I think women are weak when the situation is quite the opposite. Everyone has a breaking point and/or needs time to let out their feelings or to let down their guard, even the most emotionally strong person will need this regardless of gender, the one you turn to when you're in that weakened state and who helps you out of it should logically get some affection since they obviously are showing they care about you (instead of blowing you off like its none of their concern).
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Posted 2/10/14
I had good results by being the Nice Jerk
Posted 2/10/14 , edited 2/12/14
Omg I lost myself there for a min
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