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Goku is a bad character
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27 / M / Mor Dhona
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14
Well, it's really just because Goku is your typical shonen protagonist. Since that's true, he's got special privileges - chiefly, he's always the most powerful of the protagonists, no matter what, except for that short time when Gohan was an SSJ2 before Goku. Other than that Goku is always the most powerful character. Even after being incapacitated with a normally fatal heart virus for the Androids arc, and Vegeta spent a day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku was -still- more powerful.

Chalk it up to talent and protagonist privileges - not really a good message, but superhero movies aren't much different.

It's typical of shonen protagonists, though.

Let's look at.... Naruto.

Despite supposedly being less talented than Sasuke, like him Naruto shows an uncanny ability to pick up and learn new techniques and abilities. Rasengan? His dad spent years developing it, and he picked it up in, what, a week? His mentor never perfected Sage Mode, but Naruto sure did so in a fraction of the time his mentor was alive. There are other characters with such abilities and talent, but Naruto just happens to stand out the most since he's the protagonist and is supposed to be "not very talented," but able to overcome his lack of talent through hard work. Granted Sasuke has an easier time, but he's just about the only one (or rather every Uchiha, since they're pretty clearly Kishi's favorite characters - that or they just make good antagonists).

Even in Kill la Kill
MASSIVE SPOILERS



In short... yeah, such characters are dull and annoying from a more adult perspective, but kids love them as escapist power fantasies, and given shounen anime / manga are aimed at teenage boys...
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29 / M / College
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Posted 2/20/14
dragon ball z all together suck's dosent matter what guy it is there all overpower
xxJing 
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30 / M / Duckburg
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Posted 2/20/14
I have no qualms with your argument. I have not read through it though. What Goku is though is just childish innocence prevailing over all. As a plot point that is all he is. It's the same thing with Luffy from One Piece.
Dragon
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Posted 2/20/14

Bearbudah wrote:

then how about you blackline his crap then? Just because I'm not asking him nicely to take his trolling and shove it up someplace dark, shouldn't turn attention around on me.


I removed your direct insult against another user, though I left your question intact. I've also removed direct attacks against you in this thread, but deleted the posts completely since those were just attacks without a point to them.

His post was borderline, I felt, while yours (and the others I removed) were beyond it. Like I said - everyone feel free to disagree and have a good discussion, just please keep nice.

Hope that clears things up.
Sogno- 
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14

EspeoangeTieler wrote:

i didnt read the whole thing jsut wanted to say that the spirit bomb only actully worked once




i'll be honest, i haven't seen every single episode of DBZ (I have of Dragonball, however), because I didn't really need to see all of them to know what was gonna happen lol. But I liked all the characters for the most part. I was only ever annoyed when by Gohan when he was a kid lol, for some reason he was kinda annoying. I think because he cried a lot lol.

Posted 2/20/14

Genbu89 wrote:

Well, it's really just because Goku is your typical shonen protagonist. Since that's true, he's got special privileges - chiefly, he's always the most powerful of the protagonists, no matter what, except for that short time when Gohan was an SSJ2 before Goku. Other than that Goku is always the most powerful character. Even after being incapacitated with a normally fatal heart virus for the Androids arc, and Vegeta spent a day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku was -still- more powerful.


Exactly. Also Future Trunks is still the best character in DBZ IMO
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24 / F / Johnstown, PA, USA
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Posted 2/20/14
If a breeder were to approach an Ardennais and look for the qualities of an Anglo-Arab, of course the draught horse would look bad in comparison.
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14
DB is a typical action shounen manga; a model for many action shounen. As the MC, Goku will get all the author's blessings, and he is a factor that decides the outcomes of the battles. I don't really hate him, but what I don't like is the lack of character developments for others. Vegeta is fun and interesting character. He is arrogant but hard working, but because of the plot, he will never shine. He has the limits.

Goku-liked characters can be found in both shounen and seinen, but they are more prominent in shounen because young people like those characters. When people grow up, they will find those characters are dull and unrealistic, and they will lean more toward Vegeta-liked characters.

Right now the closest copy of DB is Bleach.

I forgot to mention another feature that other series inherited from DB is that the good guys never die. That might be not true since in OP, the author killedd off Ace and White Beard, in Bleach, the Captain Commander and his vice captain died, and in Naruto, Neji, Jiraiya, and the Third. However, do people really care about the ones that died in OP and Bleach? They just poped up now and then, too less scene time to make people attach to them. In Naruto, only Neji's death can actually cause an impact; we didn't see Jiraiya's body so his death cannot be confirmed.
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24 / M / CR Forums
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Posted 2/20/14

Bearbudah wrote:



You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Dragonball Z is the second half of the Anime of the Manga of Dragonball. All of the problems you've stated about Goku are true, but only in Dragonball Z, which takes place AFTER Goku had all his character development.

By the time Dragonball Z Takes place, Goku has already become a complete character. All the trials and tribulations he previously went through during the course of Dragonball have made him the Hero. The reason Goku is removed from the majority of Arc's following is due to this. Goku has already grown up from Kid to Adult, Akira Toriyama believed Goku was finished as a character, ergo he aged him up and gave him a kid. Vageta, Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo. THEY have room to grow, and they do so through Dragonball Z.

Despite the endless jokes, Krillin's very first death was rather harsh. Goku going into a rage, and nearly getting himself killed in the process. THAT was character development. I grew up watching Dragonball, and grew up with Goku. I wouldn't be such a huge fan of Dragonball Z if I didn't start with Dragonball. Goku had his development, the reason he died in the Cell games was to give Gohan his own development.

Goku is equivalent to Parents in a Slice-of-Life Teen Drama anime. He's not allowed to be around his kids, because he would fix all their problems before we had a plot. Look at Madoka Magicka! Madoka has problems? Asks her mom for help, SHIT SOLVED, GO ON HOME AND EAT SOME CAKE-E.

Akira Toriyama's writing style isn't "Create plotholes, blahblahblah" but "write by the seat of your pants"
Toriyama is known for his conclusive arc endings, and open story endings. When Freeza died, Dragonball Z could continue or end. When Cell died, DBZ could continue or end. When Demon King Piccolo, Red Ribbon Army, Majin Buu, ANYTHING happened, it could pick one of those two options. Toriyama didn't think ahead, he thought as he went along. This is part of what made Dragonball so huge a Manga. It had imagination, fun, and characters we grew up with.

I see you have problems with Goku's character as presented in Dragonball z.

I argue that his character is amazing in Dragonball, and you should be watching and judging that instead.
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20 / M / Nowhere Islands
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Posted 2/20/14
^ This. Dragonball had all of Goku's character developement. Toriyama also initially didn't intend to have Goku appear in the Majin Buu saga but due to fans, he wrote him in again.
Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14
He's an incredibly flat character for sure. He lacks depth.
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26 / M / Michigan
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14
Actually it's confirmed by Toriyama that by the end of the series Gohan is the strongest in terms of powerlevel. If any character is just being handed power its him. Just throwing that out there.

If you notice though after Frieza, Goku doesn't actually beat anyone other than Yakon in Babidi's lair (Yes, he won against Kid Buu but only with the spirit bomb which wasn't made of his energy but the earths.) and is used as a way to buy time for the others, is completely even with his opponent, or gets utterly destroyed.

You mentioned the gravity training and how much Vegeta did compared to Goku to become super saiyan. But it was never about the training. Vegeta was strong enough but lacked a trigger, he wanted it simply out of desire. Note that all SSJ transformations were acquired by either desperation or indignation. Vegeta achieves the form through sheer frustration at his original inability to achieve it, especially when Goku already had. I read a long time ago in an official DBZ magazine that in order to achieve SSJ one must be full of rage but also have a clear heart and have an actual need for it, which is why SSJ was so difficult and rare to get for so long in DBZ history.

Also keep in mind Goku has always been privileged in the sense that he has access to way more training opportunities with great teachers he gets to train under King Kai, Grand Kai, and training in Other World was what allowed him to obtain the Super Saiyan 3 form. Meanwhile Vegeta trains all by himself most of the time on earth.

For much of the android saga Vegeta is actually stronger this can be seen in the fight against android 19. Goku doesn't surpass Vegeta until they train in the hyporbolic time chamber and Goku comes up with the idea of staying in SSJ form as if it were his base form doing this allowed him to fully unlock the potential of SSJ 1 because it no longer strained their bodies as it used to. Had Goku not thought of this, he would not have been nearly as powerful. Unfortunately for Vegeta and Trunks, neither of them thought of it and hit their wall while Goku overcame his. Thus they were inferior to Goku once again. After Cell Goku is training in the other world while Vegeta is training on earth. Advantage Goku again.

Also as far as Goku's actual character development watch DB, he already is a complete character. DBZ is about the others.

I'm done for now, sorry for the long read.


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28 / F / Elkhart, Indiana
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Posted 2/20/14
I have always like ANY other character in DBZ more than Goku. He is pretty good in Dragonball though because he isn't so overpowered.
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25 / F / New Jersey, USA
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Posted 2/20/14



Yup. I like characters like him.
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20 / M / England
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Posted 2/20/14

Genbu89 wrote:

Well, it's really just because Goku is your typical shonen protagonist. Since that's true, he's got special privileges - chiefly, he's always the most powerful of the protagonists, no matter what, except for that short time when Gohan was an SSJ2 before Goku. Other than that Goku is always the most powerful character. Even after being incapacitated with a normally fatal heart virus for the Androids arc, and Vegeta spent a day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku was -still- more powerful.

Chalk it up to talent and protagonist privileges - not really a good message, but superhero movies aren't much different.

It's typical of shonen protagonists, though.

Let's look at.... Naruto.

Despite supposedly being less talented than Sasuke, like him Naruto shows an uncanny ability to pick up and learn new techniques and abilities. Rasengan? His dad spent years developing it, and he picked it up in, what, a week? His mentor never perfected Sage Mode, but Naruto sure did so in a fraction of the time his mentor was alive. There are other characters with such abilities and talent, but Naruto just happens to stand out the most since he's the protagonist and is supposed to be "not very talented," but able to overcome his lack of talent through hard work. Granted Sasuke has an easier time, but he's just about the only one (or rather every Uchiha, since they're pretty clearly Kishi's favorite characters - that or they just make good antagonists).

Even in Kill la Kill
MASSIVE SPOILERS



In short... yeah, such characters are dull and annoying from a more adult perspective, but kids love them as escapist power fantasies, and given shounen anime / manga are aimed at teenage boys...


Off topic, but where could I find a larger version of your display picture?

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