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Goku is a bad character
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14

but kids love them as escapist power fantasies, and given shounen anime / manga are aimed at teenage boys...

Yes this is true, I am overthinking it :)
The whole point of me watching the series again was to finish what I never got around to see as a kid.
(Denmark only bought license and dubbed up until the end of the Frieza saga)


I argue that his character is amazing in Dragonball, and you should be watching and judging that instead.

Currently watching GT and I was thinking exactly that, because he just seems to fit a child's character so much better.
I'm definitely considering to buy the original anime version of the Dragon Ball series (before Z)


Actually it's confirmed by Toriyama that by the end of the series Gohan is the strongest in terms of powerlevel. If any character is just being handed power its him. Just throwing that out there.


I knew this already, but in terms of the average flow of power increasement, Goku will always be the strongest, and Vegeta a close runner-up
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Posted 2/20/14
As a Gokuist, I find this thread offensive
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Posted 2/20/14

Bearbudah wrote:



I argue that his character is amazing in Dragonball, and you should be watching and judging that instead.

Currently watching GT and I was thinking exactly that, because he just seems to fit a child's character so much better.
I'm definitely considering to buy the original anime version of the Dragon Ball series (before Z)


Indeed. GT is far too network and managment creation, and has too little in common with anything. It's actually been cannon-disowned by now. Dragonball Online is the official continuation.

The first season of Dragonball is solid and sold for a good price. I wish I owned all of them, the final arc of Dragonball is my favorite within the entire series, and I used to feel bad about not having seen the entire arc back as a kid....but then I rewatched it and said "Wait...I DID see the entire arc! I just never finished the filler episodes following the arc!"

Nothing says Character Development than the systematic murder of your entire supporting cast! Really, Vageta and Nappa just copied a previous(and second most popular) arc.
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14

Falcon132 wrote:

Actually it's confirmed by Toriyama that by the end of the series Gohan is the strongest in terms of powerlevel. If any character is just being handed power its him. Just throwing that out there.

If you notice though after Frieza, Goku doesn't actually beat anyone other than Yakon in Babidi's lair (Yes, he won against Kid Buu but only with the spirit bomb which wasn't made of his energy but the earths.) and is used as a way to buy time for the others, is completely even with his opponent, or gets utterly destroyed.

You mentioned the gravity training and how much Vegeta did compared to Goku to become super saiyan. But it was never about the training. Vegeta was strong enough but lacked a trigger, he wanted it simply out of desire. Note that all SSJ transformations were acquired by either desperation or indignation. Vegeta achieves the form through sheer frustration at his original inability to achieve it, especially when Goku already had. I read a long time ago in an official DBZ magazine that in order to achieve SSJ one must be full of rage but also have a clear heart and have an actual need for it, which is why SSJ was so difficult and rare to get for so long in DBZ history.

Also keep in mind Goku has always been privileged in the sense that he has access to way more training opportunities with great teachers he gets to train under King Kai, Grand Kai, and training in Other World was what allowed him to obtain the Super Saiyan 3 form. Meanwhile Vegeta trains all by himself most of the time on earth.

For much of the android saga Vegeta is actually stronger this can be seen in the fight against android 19. Goku doesn't surpass Vegeta until they train in the hyporbolic time chamber and Goku comes up with the idea of staying in SSJ form as if it were his base form doing this allowed him to fully unlock the potential of SSJ 1 because it no longer strained their bodies as it used to. Had Goku not thought of this, he would not have been nearly as powerful. Unfortunately for Vegeta and Trunks, neither of them thought of it and hit their wall while Goku overcame his. Thus they were inferior to Goku once again. After Cell Goku is training in the other world while Vegeta is training on earth. Advantage Goku again.

Also as far as Goku's actual character development watch DB, he already is a complete character. DBZ is about the others.

I'm done for now, sorry for the long read.




While it's true that Goku loses to the Pillsbury Doughbot (thanks Team FourStar!), the implication is that it's only because he's sick. Said doughbot just tanks his watered-down attacks until Goku tires out and gets mauled. If he were at full strength, he probably would have trounced 19, as evidenced by Vegeta (who is always or almost always weaker than Goku when they're both healthy) doing so.

Can you do work very well with the flu?

Like I said, it's because Goku is the main protagonist (though Toriyama tried to shift that honor to Gohan, fans didn't like it), so he gets all kinds of special talent and privileges. Vegeta (etc.) works his ass off, but never catches up, not because he isn't trying hard enough or because he doesn't want it enough (in Vegeta's case, it's a downright obsession until practically the end of the series), but simply because he isn't the main protagonist.

It's really not the best message to tell people - that talent and privilege will always best hard work and willpower - but it's not far from the truth.


MrRandomGuy123 wrote:

Off topic, but where could I find a larger version of your display picture?



I found the image on Know Your Meme's Kill la Kill gallery. I think the artist's handle is "Not A Hazard," since that's the signature on it.
Posted 2/20/14
Doesn't matter he is still the most popular character in the Univerese (I'm not a Dbz fan)

Plus Naruto is the most overrated anime in the history and still doesn't matter because thats not gonna change anything
so Your argument is invalid Sir
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Posted 2/20/14 , edited 2/20/14
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Posted 2/20/14
mahn you should totally watch bojack unbound. it happens right after the cell games and it focuses on how strong Gohan came to be (until chi-chi screwed him up with school). also goku only gets like 4 mins total screen time
Posted 2/20/14
i like Kid Goku a lot, Adult Goku is just meh.....
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Posted 2/20/14
TL;DR: shonen protagonists are horrible characters, and the protagonist effect does nothing but shit all over the more interesting secondary characters.
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Posted 2/20/14
You make some good points, the only thing I would argue though, is that some of Vegeta's downfall are his own doing. The androids are the perfect example, he had Cell beat, completely overpowered him, but his own arrogance allowed Cell to win. That is a recurring theme with his character, he is strong, but his arrogance causes him to suffer defeat. Furthermore, when it comes to the subject of why Vegeta had such a hard time becoming SS, it is because Vegeta, did not have the strong emotions that Goku had. Has you pointed out it is strong emotions that lead to SS, but Vegeta didn't have these, he killed his closest companion, Napa, without any emotion, this lack of emotions means he has to do things the hard way. Vegeta still has one of the greatest lines though, when Krillin says " I thought only someone pure of heart could become an SS." Vegeta's response of "My heart is pure, pure evil." Just great. I don't completely agree with your opinion, but think you did a good job laying out your argument.
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Posted 2/21/14 , edited 2/21/14

You make some good points, the only thing I would argue though, is that some of Vegeta's downfall are his own doing. The androids are the perfect example, he had Cell beat, completely overpowered him, but his own arrogance allowed Cell to win. That is a recurring theme with his character, he is strong, but his arrogance causes him to suffer defeat.

Yes indeed. It is in fact only at one of the final episodes that Vegeta finally acknowledges that he will never be stronger than Goku.

It's ironic because I think I read somewhere that Toriyama's least favorite character is in fact, Vegeta, but at the same time he's probably the most relatable character in the series that isn't overly filled to the brink with good intentions and he has petty emotions just like humans.
Whether that's true or not, the fact that Vegeta ends up being the most human-like character is just amazing.
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"Year-end cleanup. Closing threads with no activity since 2014."
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