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Russia invades Ukraine
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29 / M / wherever my work...
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Posted 3/2/14
I'll tell all ya'll what. It's going to get as bloody as this guy:



It's already a bad situation as it stands now, and it's already cost lives. All sides have already begun to flex their power, and it's only a matter of time at this point. When it goes down, it's not going to be a good day for someone. You're also talking about two powers with enough nukes to make us extinct 500x.
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(´◔౪◔)✂❤
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Posted 3/2/14
Mm never heard of it
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20 / M / USA
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Posted 3/2/14 , edited 3/2/14


I agree that the phrase "We have our own problems" has become somewhat of a cop out. But it is true. And while I believe in standing up for those who cant stand up for themselves and helping those who truly need help, I don't believe in picking and choosing who you help. If you help one race,religion,sex you have to help the others.There are way too many people who need help. Not only is it physically and economically impossible to help everyone in need But do to human nature we as humans are extremely biased. The way I see it is for any nation or person to even have the most remote chance of making a difference and helping those in need they have to take care of there own problems first.
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40 / M / End of Nowhere
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Posted 3/2/14

Mithos_Y wrote:

It may be part of Ukraine, but a large Russian population with a significant deployment of Russian military assets there makes Crimea de facto Russian territory. Given that the Ukraine government changed from pursuing Russian-appeasement policies to being anti-Russia literally overnight, I'm not at all surprised Putin is doing what he's doing. If the West was concerned about the growing Russian influence in Ukraine, they should have acted years ago instead of waiting for it to hit the boiling point like it did recently.

I don't say this lightly, but unless there's new developments I don't consider this to be an act of aggression on Russia's part. If there is a military deployment by the west in Ukraine (or god forbid Crimea) then that would categorically be an act of aggression.


So the fact that there is a large contingent of Americans in Yokosuka as well as the entire US 7th Fleet, does that make Yokosuka defacto American territory? USFAY is in fact the largest US naval installation west of Pearl Harbor, but I think Japan would have issues if the US tried to call it their own territory. As would any country who is simply hosting a foreign country's military.

As for Ukraine shifting overnight, in fact that is not how it actually happened. Ukraine for years has been following a path of slowly getting closer to Western Europe and was on the verge of signing an association agreement with the EU. The entire crisis was instigated back in November when then word filtered out that Ukraine was not going to sign the association agreement. The Ukraine government backtracked and said they were still on pace to sign it, but that was largely a smokescreen. Protests have been going on since the end of November 2013. It has just exploded onto the world stage since December when then President Yanukovych signed an agreement with Russia. Since then the protests have turned very bloody as then president President Yanukovych signed into law a number of laws that restricted both the rights to protest as well as allowing the police to open fire on protesters.

As for why the West has not done a lot, they cannot do a lot short of war. But neither was Russia. Both the US and Russia, as well as Great Britain (And France and China in separate agreements) agreed not to use threats or force or military powers against the territory or political independence of the Ukraine. That was in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances where in exchange for Russia, UK, and US agreements not to threaten Ukraine, they gave up their nuclear arsenal. Then the third largest in the world. In using military troops in the Crimea, it is Russia that is arguably violating the treaty, not the US.

Russian troops on the ground outside of their military bases would constitute the use of force against Ukraine. As it violates Ukraine's territorial integrity. And I would note, Russia was not exactly ready to protect Pro-West protesters when they were getting actively shot and killed, but is willing to violate a treaty when they claim those of Russian descent are "threatened" even though there has been no violence against them. Not to mention Russia was quite adamant about telling the West, and the US in particular, to stay out of the Ukraine when it was only Pro-Western demonstrators being killed.

Russia is, like China in the South China Sea, holding to a double standard. And frankly it is Russia that is in violation of Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. They can say it is for protection, but that is what aggressors always say. In the end it is Russia that is in a treaty violation.

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24 / M / Fairyland
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Posted 3/2/14
The way I see it, Russia is perhaps preventing Ukraine from becoming another Egypt and Syria. Who knows what would've happened had they not deployed in troops? Mass extremists doing what the hell they want and fighting the oppositions, maybe, recent history can tell. The US are frankly powerless against Russia - politically and financially
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23 / M / Beyond The Wall
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Posted 3/2/14


Real Life Fallout Coming Soon to a country near you
Sogno- 
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Posted 3/2/14
i just hate to see a country split and people getting hurt because they can't agree on something, whether they are Ukrainian or Russian they are still humans with their own thoughts and feelings.

as far as Western involvement, idk, it's always that question of, do we have a right to intervene in another country's affairs, or can we turn a blind eye to how this conflict affects others? it is always this way with these things because the world's a lot smaller than it used to be.
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22 / M / Sol
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Posted 3/2/14 , edited 3/2/14

jpc1278 wrote:



I agree that the phrase "We have our own problems" has become somewhat of a cop out. But it is true. And while I believe in standing up for those who cant stand up for themselves and helping those who truly need help, I don't believe in picking and choosing who you help. If you help one race,religion,sex you have to help the others.There are way too many people who need help. Not only is it physically and economically impossible to help everyone in need But do to human nature we as humans are extremely biased. The way I see it is for any nation or person to even have the most remote chance of making a difference and helping those in need they have to take care of there own problems first.


Has any country in the history of the world ever been truly problem free? Believing that a country can overcome every economic, racial, and cultural issues is even more idealistic then what I was sprouting earlier. For example, to prevent excess inflation a capitalistic economy requires (I think) needs at least 5% unemployment. This means that the USA will always have a lower class no matter what, if the entire economic system of the country is transformed it would likely mean the States were invaded by another country with the hold that corporations have over the current government. The only cure for Cultural and Racial issues is to exterminate all differences, as long as their is variation there will be conflict. People are scared of differences and have a terrible inferiority complex, they need to feel dominate, they need to feel better to compensate for their own inadequacies.

There will always be problems and if by some miracle a group of people create a utopia where race, culture, and class is no longer an issue. Do you really believe that they would risk the stability of this utopia by interacting with the outside world that is still in chaos? No, they would close themselves off and forsake their brothers and sisters in favor of everlasting peace and prosperity.
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20 / M / USA
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Posted 3/2/14

soullesswatcher wrote:


jpc1278 wrote:



I agree that the phrase "We have our own problems" has become somewhat of a cop out. But it is true. And while I believe in standing up for those who cant stand up for themselves and helping those who truly need help, I don't believe in picking and choosing who you help. If you help one race,religion,sex you have to help the others.There are way too many people who need help. Not only is it physically and economically impossible to help everyone in need But do to human nature we as humans are extremely biased. The way I see it is for any nation or person to even have the most remote chance of making a difference and helping those in need they have to take care of there own problems first.


Has any country in the history of the world ever been truly problem free? Believing that a country can overcome every economic, racial, and cultural issues is even more idealistic then what I was sprouting earlier. For example, to prevent excess inflation a capitalistic economy requires (I think) needs at least 5% unemployment. This means that the USA will always have a lower class no matter what, if the entire economic system of the country is transformed it would likely mean the States were invaded by another country with the hold that corporations have over the current government. The only cure for Cultural and Racial issues is to exterminate all differences, as long as their is variation there will be conflict. People are scared of differences and have a terrible inferiority complex, they need to feel dominate, they need to feel better to compensate for their own inadequacies.

There will always be problems and if by some miracle a group of people create a utopia where race, culture, and class is no longer an issue. Do you really believe that they would risk the stability of this utopia by interacting with the outside world that is still in chaos? No, they would close themselves off and forsake their brothers and sisters in favor of everlasting peace and prosperity.


Well said. Used my own words against me. At least we had enough class not to flame each other.
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22 / M / Sol
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Posted 3/2/14 , edited 3/2/14

jpc1278 wrote:


soullesswatcher wrote:



Has any country in the history of the world ever been truly problem free? Believing that a country can overcome every economic, racial, and cultural issues is even more idealistic then what I was sprouting earlier. For example, to prevent excess inflation a capitalistic economy requires (I think) needs at least 5% unemployment. This means that the USA will always have a lower class no matter what, if the entire economic system of the country is transformed it would likely mean the States were invaded by another country with the hold that corporations have over the current government. The only cure for Cultural and Racial issues is to exterminate all differences, as long as their is variation there will be conflict. People are scared of differences and have a terrible inferiority complex, they need to feel dominate, they need to feel better to compensate for their own inadequacies.

There will always be problems and if by some miracle a group of people create a utopia where race, culture, and class is no longer an issue. Do you really believe that they would risk the stability of this utopia by interacting with the outside world that is still in chaos? No, they would close themselves off and forsake their brothers and sisters in favor of everlasting peace and prosperity.


Well said. Used my own words against me. At least we had enough class not to flame each other.


I agree, the biggest problem with debates over the internet is the false belief that there has to be a "winner". There are rarely "correct" opionions when it comes to debates, they are simply different. Instead of going into a debate with the mindset of "winning" we should prioritize "understanding" and building/editing our own personal beliefs while simultaneously attempting to explain your own viewpoints, so the other person in question can do the same thing.
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20 / M
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Posted 3/2/14 , edited 3/2/14

soullesswatcher wrote:

I don't understand, why does Russia feels the need to keep sustain a "buffer" zone. It isn't like the EU is interested in invading Russia, I think they finally learned their lesson after Hitler. Why not supply the rebels with weapons (like another certain country) in order to get into the new regimes good graces. What is the point of busting in guns blazing to suppress the general populace and show how big of a dick you are. People are going to start thinking that you're trying to be America and....... wait, this is starting to make sense now.....



Russia cares about having Ukraine ( or at least being on good terms with them) Because they are a major exporter of natural gas, which they send through pipelines to Europe ( they provide about 40% of Europe's natural gas). However, their pipes run through Ukraine, so if those pipes go down, Russia loses a huge amount of income. Also, shots have not been fired yet, so they didn't go guns in blazing, and they have not stopped traffic in and out of Ukraine.

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Posted 3/2/14
I hope it doesn't evolve into something too messy.
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26 / M / Canada
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Posted 3/2/14


I have no interest in drawing this out into a debate, but I would like to note two things. First, thanks for pointing out the Budapest Memorandum to me. I didn't know such an agreement was signed, That being said, I read it over and would like to point out the clauses that allow the signatories to use military force in the event of self-defence. That's arguably what Russia is doing given the large number of Russian nationals and Russian military assets in Crimea. It should also be noted that Russia hasn't explicitly attacked Ukraine yet, and according to this Budapest Memorandum would be justified in doing so in the event of Ukrainian provocations.

That example about American troops in Japan is a good analogy you brought up. If the Japanese government collapsed and a new group comes to power on the wave of anti-American rhetoric, then the USA would be perfectly justified in deploying additional military to ensure the protection of their troops.

I don't like being in a position where I'm defending Putin, but this is not an act of military aggression and the West should not get involved. Canada has done the smart thing by ruling out military intervention.
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19 / M / Maryland
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Posted 3/3/14
At this rate, this should probably be moved to extended discussion

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738

Well anyways, Russia has given Ukraine an ultimatum, and it seems like Ukraine has no intention of stepping down.
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19 / M / Netherland
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Posted 3/3/14
I read on my smarthphone that Russia has given Ukrain until 5 AM to leave the peninsula or they will take measures against them and China said they understand why Russia is doing this. --> USA and EU have said they will take sanctions against Russia if they do not remove their soldiers.

I just have a bad feeling about all this...
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