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Why S.A.O. was B.A.D. and you should still watch G.G.O. (with pictures)
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Posted 3/12/14

aidenraine wrote:


Well_Spoken_Man wrote:

Remember people, that if you declare on this forum that you enjoyed any part of SAO, the anime brownshirts are going to come and bash you for having the audacity to enjoy something they believe is without merit.


I enjoyed SAO! all 25 episodes and the extra special! bring it on, haters.


Yeah same here, I'm a fan all the way

it's okay if there are haters, that means more views for SAO, haters are gonna see the next season

It's like Bieber, he wouldn't be so famous if it wasn't for all the haters
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Posted 3/12/14
Why my video sucks, and you should read this post anyway. ELECTRIC BOOGALOO!

Ever see something and think "I could do that?" Because that's what I did when I saw PodTaku, and now I know why I'm not famous. Videos are hell to make. I'm sticking to text from here on out.

The spoiler tags only contain quotes. The post was geting really long.



My target audiance here was actually a specific group of people that I know had already seen SAO, hated it, and had some things to say about it's fans. My goal was to explain why the things they complained about happened in Kawahara's writing process. I admit I only posted it on CR without looking into what the community here thought to boost views.

I'm sorry that I was so thoughtless. Right joke, wrong audiance.



In the first SAO story, Kirito is characterized as a loner, and his big development is opening up to Asuna and learning to trust other people. The side stories undermined that characterization, and, to my mind, derailed the character. I won't tell you not to enjoy them, but I think presenting them after the original story (as in the books) to keep the original characterization of Kirito intact in the first story is the better way to go. (if you're going to include the side stories at all) Now, doing that creates a whole can of worms in pacing, but there you go. It was a hairball to adapt, I'm sure.

Some of the shorts were better than others. Some of them were pretty good, actually. All of them messed with Kirito's characterisation.

Another issue was Kirito solving people's problems too easily. See any analysis of Superman comics for why this is a bad thing. A lot of scenes that could have been dramatic had much of their tension taken out by Kirito never being in any danger at all during most of the side stories. (I'm looking at you stand-still-and-get-wailed-on-while-taking-no-damage-scene)

ALO gets a lot of hate, so I'll try and keep my criticisms of it brief. It made the arbitrary decision to let Kirito keep his powers from the first game, which only exacerbated the "Kirito is never in danger" problem. (As an aside, this problem is not solved in GGO, only put on the back burner.) In addition to that, it gave Asuna little to no power to effect the plot, and when she tried she mostly failed. Despite this, she still got occasional screen time, which served only to hammer in the message that she was currently helpless.

Aside from never being in danger, Kirito also had a disproportionate impact on the community of ALO given how long he spent there in the second arc. Given that he still had his powers, it's to be expected that he would for reasons elaborated on in the show and book, but it's not good world building to establish a setting and then let your protagonist's actions reshape it at a stroke.

/reasons



IM SORRY see my other comments. T_T

Mauno wrote:



I have nothing to add, I just thought the Parody comment was an excellent way of putting it. XD



I am glad you enjoyed that bit. XD The reason I got into Lit. was because I got tired of blue curtains and decided to take the reigns.



RIGHT!?
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Posted 3/12/14 , edited 3/12/14

panzerbear wrote:
/reasons

There you go! That's what I was hoping for when I watched the video.

Once again, I apologize for getting so heated. As I said, you unfortunately managed to strike just the wrong chord with me & then I was kind of a lost cause from there.

And I do agree, videos are hecku hard to make. I'm cool talking in them if someone else is doing the producing, but otherwise I'm sticking to my blog haha.


aidenraine wrote:
I enjoyed SAO! all 25 episodes and the extra special! bring it on, haters.

QFT.
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Posted 3/12/14 , edited 3/12/14

pandrasb


Same here, only I'd prefer the haters (hyper-critics) to stick to their little holes and talk amongst themselves. Can't wait for GGO but got plenty of other anime to hold me over till then
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Posted 3/12/14
One month to go till SAO/GGO? I hope so
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Posted 3/12/14

Giotto_Tsuna wrote:

I like SAO, but I dislike the ALO Arc especially Sugou molesting Asuna


she didn't exactly get molested but almost, thank god kirito was there right?
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Posted 3/12/14
anyways sao didn't absolutely suck i loved the first half, the second half was ok but it could have been way better
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Posted 3/12/14

stoner789 wrote:


Giotto_Tsuna wrote:

I like SAO, but I dislike the ALO Arc especially Sugou molesting Asuna


she didn't exactly get molested but almost, thank god kirito was there right?


Going by the definition of molestation, I'd say she most definitely did. Where it might have led to... yes, thank God Kirito was there.
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Posted 3/12/14 , edited 3/12/14
During my time on the forums, i think the post I've seen most is..."SAO's first half was good, but the second half sucked."
Or some variation of that phrase lol
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Posted 3/12/14

panzerbear wrote:
In the first SAO story, Kirito is characterized as a loner, and his big development is opening up to Asuna and learning to trust other people. The side stories undermined that characterization, and, to my mind, derailed the character. I won't tell you not to enjoy them, but I think presenting them after the original story (as in the books) to keep the original characterization of Kirito intact in the first story is the better way to go. (if you're going to include the side stories at all) Now, doing that creates a whole can of worms in pacing, but there you go. It was a hairball to adapt, I'm sure.


I agree that the story is about Kirito being a "loner" and that Asuna was influential in changing his outlook, but disagree the side stories detracted from the main plot much, at least in my experience. There's plenty of MMO players that play solo and party up when the occasion calls for it.

How does Kirito wanting a better sword from Lisbeth detract from him being a solo player? It does not to me, he is still conflicted about being part of a guild and only goes with Lisbeth because of his ability to help her procure the rare item for the sword. In the case of Silica and the PKers, you mean to tell me that feeling sorry for and wanting to help someone being bullied is NOT character development? Just because he did not ignore her does not mean he's not conflicted inwardly about trusting others still. It simply means he has a heart and was moved by what happened to her enough to want to help. Kirito did not want to be a loner, really, it was his beater title, which he took on to save others from an inquisition on beta testers mind you, that made him an outcast more than him desiring not to party with others. Heck, he did join a guild a few months in and it ended in devastation due to him hiding his level because of his trust issues and beater stigma. His character is more complex than most denizens of the web give him credit for.


panzerbear wrote:
Some of the shorts were better than others. Some of them were pretty good, actually. All of them messed with Kirito's characterisation.


You say messed with his characterization, but I'd say expanded upon his characterization to reveal more about his true nature. He was hiding from himself in his guilt over his selfish actions. Him interacting with others and not solo playing allows for others, primarily Asuna, to help him realize he need not beat himself up over the past and should move forward. That's why I think his interactions with Lisbeth and Silica work to advance his character and not detract from it.


panzerbear wrote:
Another issue was Kirito solving people's problems too easily. See any analysis of Superman comics for why this is a bad thing. A lot of scenes that could have been dramatic had much of their tension taken out by Kirito never being in any danger at all during most of the side stories. (I'm looking at you stand-still-and-get-wailed-on-while-taking-no-damage-scene)


As to the stand still and get wailed on while taking no damage scene, I assume you mean the PKers, right? They explain exactly why it appears like he's taking no damage. His level is so high, i.e. he spent countless days soloing his level up far above the average players, that when he gets hit by the average players his HP regenerates faster than it decreases. This moment is supposed to be a joke more than a tense stand off as it is saying the PKers are ignorant and pathetic scum. They are so focused on outwitting and outnumbering their prey they failed to realize his level was far above their own and their attacks are useless. It is a social commentary on the PKers being blinded by their selfish ambition and not supposed to be a tense moment for Kirito to survive.

I pretty much agree with your criticism of the ALO portion though. It went too far into fantasy tropes and lost a lot of the grounding from the first half at times.
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Posted 3/12/14
Kirito's characterization is just a mess, as is Asuna's.

He's supposed to be a loner who learns to work with others, but all the other folks like him from the start, especially the ladies (which matches, he's nothing if not a self-insertion fantasy). Instead he just comes off as an ass who occasionally does nice things if you're pretty enough. He's all over the goddamn place.

Asuna's is more straightforward, but worse. The only positive skills she has that aren't just housewifery are setups to make her more desirable a match for Kirito. She singlehandedly demonstrates why most of the 'strong female characters' that geeks like to write and/or refer to are utter sexist trash. All of her 'strengths' are just to make her man look better.
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Posted 3/12/14
windsagio puts it pretty well.

I would add that Kirito's relationship with Asuna is what makes the side stories confusing to their development.

In the first story, Kirito is not ready to open up to people, and his romance with Asuna gets him to open up. This is a two way development; the romance gets him to open up, and opening up allows him to experience the romance.

In the short stories, he opens up to people. If this is the case, what is transpireing between him and Asuna? He's opened up to people before, so why does opening up to her lead to romance? For that matter, why does it take romance for him to open up to Asuna? What makes their romance special in light of the side stories?

I can't stop people from liking it for the aesthetics, but it's just not a strong character arc when presented in chronological order.
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Posted 3/12/14 , edited 3/12/14

windsagio wrote:

Kirito's characterization is just a mess, as is Asuna's.

He's supposed to be a loner who learns to work with others, but all the other folks like him from the start, especially the ladies (which matches, he's nothing if not a self-insertion fantasy). Instead he just comes off as an ass who occasionally does nice things if you're pretty enough. He's all over the goddamn place.


I could say the same thing of Shiroe from Log Horizon, but I don't believe either he or Kirito is as simple as you make him out to be. Both are conflicted characters who prefer solo play, but that does not mean they are loners in the truest sense of the word. They both like people, but cannot necessarily trust people. Nor does everyone like them.

Kirito has enemies as does Shiroe because people are envious of their abilities. Kirito has family reasons why he does not readily trust others, in addition to being singled out as a beater and his negative guild experience. He has to mask his level and identity as a beater to keep from being targeted, just as Shiroe has to act behind the scenes to avoid his enemies who view him as the "villain in the glasses." Shiroe also has many ladies who want him without much reason why explained to the audience. So if Kirito is a self-insertion fantasy character, then so also is Shiroe; and most any other character in anime with women who fawn over them without clear motives for that matter.


panzerbear wrote:
I would add that Kirito's relationship with Asuna is what makes the side stories confusing to their development.

In the first story, Kirito is not ready to open up to people, and his romance with Asuna gets him to open up. This is a two way development; the romance gets him to open up, and opening up allows him to experience the romance.

In the short stories, he opens up to people. If this is the case, what is transpireing between him and Asuna? He's opened up to people before, so why does opening up to her lead to romance? For that matter, why does it take romance for him to open up to Asuna? What makes their romance special in light of the side stories?


Oh, but Kirito does open up to people at first. He helps Klein and even offers to party with him to survive, but Klein declines knowing it will be too much to look after him and all of his allies. There's limited resources and time is of the essence, so with that decision Kirito sets out to level up quick; regretting it later.

Kirito then meets Asuna midway through episode 2, they hit it off over eating bread. He sees a part of himself in her, they have similar playing styles and skills. That is the spark of their relationship toward romance, and they subtly advance their relationship up through the first boss fight. The times he's with Lisbeth and Silica are completely in line with his character. Remember he does not choose to be a loner out of not wanting to interact with others, he does so because he has to avoid giving away his status of being a beater.

He can interact with a girl and not intend to pursue her romantically, it happens everyday. He needs help getting a sword and goes to a blacksmith, who happens to be Lisbeth. They share a crazy adventure together, but Kirito already has feelings for Asuna so he rejects Lisbeth's feelings for him. She developed those feelings for him while they were in a dire situation and he helped calm her. What's so wrong with portraying Lisbeth's unrequited love? That was a life and death situation for her and it feels natural she might fall for him after he helped her escape alive; it is more believable moment for me than most anime present with characters falling for others for silly reasons.

In the case of Silica, Kirito is like a big brother to her. He even says she reminds him of his sister. He is only thinking of protecting her not falling for her, regardless of how she may feel. It makes sense she would like him if he helped her revive her partner, does it not?

As to his romance with Asuna and him opening up to her, a lot of it is her opening up to him. He was fine with being open with her, she knows he's a beater and does not care. However, she had a different goal than him at first, work with a guild to get out ASAP. Kirito did not want to do that given the stigma around his actions in the first boss fight. They go their separate ways, but fate brought him back to Asuna on the front lines. So really, it is Asuna who has to mature to the point of being open with Kirito and learning to trust him more than the other way around.
Posted 3/12/14
I didn't like SAO, and yes to me it did suck...But for people to call it the worst anime ever is just ridiculous. There are plenty worse anime out there.

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Posted 3/12/14

buldieb wrote:


stoner789 wrote:


Giotto_Tsuna wrote:

I like SAO, but I dislike the ALO Arc especially Sugou molesting Asuna


she didn't exactly get molested but almost, thank god kirito was there right?


Going by the definition of molestation, I'd say she most definitely did. Where it might have led to... yes, thank God Kirito was there.


yea well at least it wasn't rape then, ieee now that molestation isn't quite the same as rape, its more of sexual harassment in an extreme manner usually forced
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