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How people see and handle biogtry these days
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22 / F / Winding Circle
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Posted 3/31/14
There is a similar thread on here, on racism, but this is also completely different. It's about having opinions.

It seems to me these days that people can't even have an opinion on something without being attacked verbally for it being the 'wrong' one. I suppose it's always been like that... but now...

People get on bigots for being bigots now, even if said bigots do nothing about their opinions, just state them civilly and leave it at that.

I believe that people can have their opinions, even if they are racist or sexist or whatever you want to call them. As long as they don't act on those opinions and bully people, threaten people, or attack people they are against. Yet, those bigots as they're called... are now being attacked (verbally) by those who want equality just for having the wrong opinions and not being open minded.

An example. Someone could say "Gay people make me uncomfortable." Nothing more, nothing less. And someone would tear into them about how gay people are normal and how they shouldn't be uncomfortable, bringing words like "homophobic" into the mix.

Let's look at that for a moment... People are usually uncomfortable with what is different. That's just how humans are. Most can get past that and find that it's not that bad after all. Others, can't. Is that wrong? No, it's not, but it can be a problem if they choose to act on that. I think meeting someone different, gay or of a different race or different in some other way is like culture shock. It's new and new things can be scary, but you have to try anyways, but you can't suppress that initial "oh my gosh" feeling. It's rational mind versus irrational mind. Everyone has an irrational side to them. They know that rationally the people in front of them are 'normal' but irrationality says that 'no they're not get away from them'. It's just a matter of if they can fight it or not and find out that their rational mind is correct.

Homophopic... or any words that have end in -phobia. Transphobia, xenophobia... I don't understand their use at all. They really refer to the hatred directed at homosexuals, transgenders, etc, but phobias are different than hatred. Phobias are irrational fears that cannot usually be controlled without a lot of struggle. So why is hatred called phobias? I suppose hatred does come from fear, but it also comes from jealousy and other things too. Also, think about it. Would you tell someone with arachnophobia to 'just get over' and expect it to happen instantly? Then why do people expect that of so called homophobes or any other of these 'fears'? It takes time, and yes, people do have to try, but just because people are uncomfortable doesn't mean that they aren't trying.

Am I the only one that finds it strange that if people of a different race besides white and they've had many run ins with white people that ended terribly it's okay for them to be scared of whites or hate them but if a white person has had the same thing happen with many people of the same race being rude and mean and such to them, and they are scared of the race or hate the race... they're racist and wrong.

I also find it ironic that people who are for equality and all that claim to be open minded but can be even more bigoted than the bigots they despise. I've seen people say that all white people have more privilege than any other race and shouldn't be miserable and won't hear a word about someone who was white and really grew up with next to nothing when the person complaining grew up with more, they're still privileged. Or they say that anyone who's uncomfortable with anyone that's different is a bigot, intolerable, and xenophobic... yet said person has admitted to working past being uncomfortable and found people enjoyable, their only problem is they still get uncomfortable initially which they hate.

Is anyone bothered by this?
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Posted 3/31/14 , edited 3/31/14

Ouzoathena11
Yet, those bigots as they're called... are now being attacked (verbally) by those who want equality just for having the wrong opinions and not being open minded.
An example. Someone could say "Gay people make me uncomfortable." Nothing more, nothing less. And someone would tear into them about how gay people are normal and how they shouldn't be uncomfortable, bringing words like "homophobic" into the mix.


This is the case indeed, and the answer as to why is quite simple. It's the same reason many atheists get all up in arms whenever religion is mentioned. Because it's something that is outdated, and irrational. Something that should've been eradicated a long time ago, and yet still keeps sticking around like a plague, pestering our society and bringing with it needless conflict and misery.

One can only go so long before one gets fed up with it. Before the cup runs over. And that's what's happened to those who verbally attack those who are close-minded and/or ignorant.
I agree it's not exactly the best way to tackle it -- after all, you'll rarely, if ever, persuade someone via hostility -- which is why you also see people trying to be calm, collected and reasonable about it. But even so, it's still understandable.




Ouzoathena11
Let's look at that for a moment... People are usually uncomfortable with what is different. That's just how humans are. Most can get past that and find that it's not that bad after all. Others, can't. Is that wrong? No, it's not, but it can be a problem if they choose to act on that. I think meeting someone different, gay or of a different race or different in some other way is like culture shock. It's new and new things can be scary, but you have to try anyways, but you can't suppress that initial "oh my gosh" feeling. It's rational mind versus irrational mind. Everyone has an irrational side to them. They know that rationally the people in front of them are 'normal' but irrationality says that 'no they're not get away from them'. It's just a matter of if they can fight it or not and find out that their rational mind is correct.


Yes, humans are usually uncomfortable with that which is different by nature. Like you say, it's a culture shock. But that's just it -- it's a culture shock. It's a reaction to something that is different and and foreign. This is where knowledge, empathy and understanding comes in. People need to learn about what they don't understand, like gay people, so that they can understand them and thus no longer fear them.
It is, as you say, irrational. But it CAN be beaten by rationality. You just have to make some effort. Being open-minded towards others and not being judgemental is a skill that can be trained. And you just have to train it as best as you can.

The verbal attacks are a way (maybe not the best way, but still a way) of reminding people of this fact. That from a logical point of view, there is nothing wrong with these people. And people must be reminded of that.





Ouzoathena11
Homophopic... or any words that have end in -phobia. Transphobia, xenophobia... I don't understand their use at all. They really refer to the hatred directed at homosexuals, transgenders, etc, but phobias are different than hatred. Phobias are irrational fears that cannot usually be controlled without a lot of struggle. So why is hatred called phobias? I suppose hatred does come from fear, but it also comes from jealousy and other things too. Also, think about it. Would you tell someone with arachnophobia to 'just get over' and expect it to happen instantly? Then why do people expect that of so called homophobes or any other of these 'fears'? It takes time, and yes, people do have to try, but just because people are uncomfortable doesn't mean that they aren't trying.


What you're saying regarding the use of the word "phobia" is indeed true, and it's a fault that many keeps pointing out. Like in this quote by Morgan Freeman:


Arachnophobia is a bit different than this, because an arachnid is something that you cannot converse with. So you can never know what their "true intentions" are. You never know where they are. Suddenly they can just creep up on you, or even bite you. There is no way of knowing because they cannot speak.
This is a rather important difference, because it is something that makes the gap for arachnophobes so much wider and deeper to cross than that of those who are "phobes" of something that can be much easier understood and conversed with.

Yes, just because they get uncomfortable, doesn't mean they're not trying. But alas, this is not a scenario that most people will really consider unless they are told about it. And really, if you're going to state such a controversial opinion on such a touchy subject, you should remember to mention such a crucial detail.
It can save you a lot of undue criticism and harshness.

Of course, that harshness shouldn't be there, like I said earlier. But it's a fact of life that we have to be aware of.
At least it's better than apathy...





Ouzoathena11
Am I the only one that finds it strange that if people of a different race besides white and they've had many run ins with white people that ended terribly it's okay for them to be scared of whites or hate them but if a white person has had the same thing happen with many people of the same race being rude and mean and such to them, and they are scared of the race or hate the race... they're racist and wrong.


This is not the case. At all. If you look up on any video, post, tweet, etc. of non-white people spouting racist bullshit, you'll see them getting tons of shit for it as well. Not as many people will react, because many white people are afraid of being labeled white-supremacists for pointing it out, but they still get tons of criticism.
Especially if you look at the relationship between the many chinese and many japanese people, you'll find that most people label it as racist.

If someone hate or have bigoted opinions of people of a different ethnicity, simply because of their ethnicity, then they are racist, regardless of what ethnicity they themselves are. They are also wrong.
Being scared based on past experiences is understandable, but it's none the less ignorant.




Ouzoathena11
I also find it ironic that people who are for equality and all that claim to be open minded but can be even more bigoted than the bigots they despise. I've seen people say that all white people have more privilege than any other race and shouldn't be miserable and won't hear a word about someone who was white and really grew up with next to nothing when the person complaining grew up with more, they're still privileged. Or they say that anyone who's uncomfortable with anyone that's different is a bigot, intolerable, and xenophobic... yet said person has admitted to working past being uncomfortable and found people enjoyable, their only problem is they still get uncomfortable initially which they hate.
Is anyone bothered by this?


Not the case with the majority of people. Please do not try to pass it off as such, because it is a strawman argument.
Regarding that last part, I have never heard of that happening, nor can I really imagine how that is even possible. If you spend enough time learning about something, you'll stop being weirded out by it, eventually.

If that is the case, however then they should not be bullied and get called names. Because if they know within that them getting weirded out is irrational and they try to get past that, then that is something to be commended for, and encouraged.
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22 / M / Fort Myer
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Posted 4/1/14
Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.
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Posted 4/1/14 , edited 4/1/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


May I ask why you don't agree with it?
How exactly does those conversations usually go?
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Posted 4/1/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


May I ask why you don't agree with it?
How exactly does those conversations usually go?


Just the way I was raised. Typically I'll state that I don't agree with it. Which results in me being called homophobic and the rest is history. I don't even bother choosing a side anymore. I simply state that I don't care one way or the other.
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Posted 4/1/14 , edited 4/1/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


May I ask why you don't agree with it?
How exactly does those conversations usually go?


Just the way I was raised. Typically I'll state that I don't agree with it. Which results in me being called homophobic and the rest is history. I don't even bother choosing a side anymore. I simply state that I don't care one way or the other.


I will apologize in advance, as I know this might come off as rude -- but certainly you DO realize that "the way I was raised" is the absolute worst, most un-intellectual and lazy reason that exists for anything, right?
I hope you're not seriously holding a belief -- much less one as important as this one -- just because that's the way you were raised. Because if so then one has to wonder about the extent to which you actually think about stuff...
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Posted 4/1/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


I think most people get upset because you're saying:
"I don't believe some human beings should have the same rights as I do because they aren't just like me."

There's a fair amount of people who believe that that's a very selfish thing to say/believe.
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Posted 4/1/14

mdmzero0 wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


I think most people get upset because you're saying:
"I don't believe some human beings should have the same rights as I do because they aren't just like me."

There's a fair amount of people who believe that that's a very selfish thing to say/believe.


I have nowhere near the same amount of rights as you or the average gay person. I gave those rights up when I joined the military.
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Posted 4/1/14
I was tired of a fb page being rude about people who are 'homophobes' and similar, and so I sent a very similar thing to my original post here, adding that I do try to get past it because my first instinct when I see someone different is to run the other way. I always fight that urge down, and I succeed and I feel guilty that I even have that urge, but when I explained all that... I was told that I was a class A bigot, also that I was xenophobic and intolerant.
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Posted 4/1/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:


mdmzero0 wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


I think most people get upset because you're saying:
"I don't believe some human beings should have the same rights as I do because they aren't just like me."

There's a fair amount of people who believe that that's a very selfish thing to say/believe.


I have nowhere near the same amount of rights as you or the average gay person. I gave those rights up when I joined the military.


Wow... I can't remember the last time I saw such a shameless display of intellectual dishonesty...
Certainly you understood that when he said "I" he didn't just mean you specificly...
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25 / M / Zuellni
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Posted 4/1/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:


mdmzero0 wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Nothing is more annoying than someone freaking out on you over things like gay rights. Yeah, I don't agree with it. No matter how civil I behave it usually ends with them yelling over me and telling me to kill myself or some such crap.


I think most people get upset because you're saying:
"I don't believe some human beings should have the same rights as I do because they aren't just like me."

There's a fair amount of people who believe that that's a very selfish thing to say/believe.


I have nowhere near the same amount of rights as you or the average gay person. I gave those rights up when I joined the military.


Ah, and were you drafted into the military? The world as you see it is this:

1) I was born straight, I have all my rights unless I give them up
2) I was born gay, I don't deserve any rights to give up.

Please, I implore you to inform me why someone who is a human being such as yourself doesn't deserve the same rights as you? Unless it's simple human jealous/greed and you want to feel more important/more deserving/have more rights than others so that you can feel superior.
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Posted 4/1/14
I liken the whole initial 'discomfort' with new things to taste palettes. When a child is developing their taste palette - it takes several experiences with a flavor (around 10 tries) before a kid starts to like it.

You'll find that in the whole of the UK, Londoners are the most tolerant of foreigners - and I think this is down to higher exposure to people of different cultures.

In terms of bigotry, there are people who talk without thinking about what they're saying and thus, just have an automated response to such issues i.e. gay rights, xenophobia.

And there are people who actually think and give a logical opinion and are thus, quite open-minded.

I try to carefully think my responses to any issue - I think its a polite thing to do and I always listen to other people's opinions.

When it comes to opinions that edge on discrimination by race or sexual orientation - it does test my patience but I generally try to be tolerant instead of being reactive. I certainly wouldn't like to be told I'm wrong when an opinion is subjective - all you can do is nudge a person along a gray scale.

Is this what they call growing up? XD
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25 / M / Zuellni
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Posted 4/1/14

Ouzoathena11 wrote:

I was tired of a fb page being rude about people who are 'homophobes' and similar, and so I sent a very similar thing to my original post here, adding that I do try to get past it because my first instinct when I see someone different is to run the other way. I always fight that urge down, and I succeed and I feel guilty that I even have that urge, but when I explained all that... I was told that I was a class A bigot, also that I was xenophobic and intolerant.


Overcoming your own personal faults should never be something worthy of insults. I don't believe it is. That being said, I do believe it is a fault to be intolerant of people who are different than you, but I support you in trying to change that, and I wish more people would.
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Posted 4/1/14
And this is why I simply tell people I don't give two fucks about gay rights. Last time I checked they aren't being shot with fire hoses in the middle of the street or being denied the right to vote. If your gay and in the military you can get married and earn BAH just like a regular couple. Maybe with some luck this intolerant bigot will get blown up and someone more intellectual and perfect will take my place.
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Posted 4/2/14 , edited 4/2/14

11BravoPatterson wrote:

And this is why I simply tell people I don't give two fucks about gay rights. Last time I checked they aren't being shot with fire hoses in the middle of the street or being denied the right to vote. If your gay and in the military you can get married and earn BAH just like a regular couple. Maybe with some luck this intolerant bigot will get blown up and someone more intellectual and perfect will take my place.


You're overdramaticizing this, as well as being, by the looks of it, willfullingly ignorant of what the issue is actually about.
The issue is about equality. And recognition as having equal worth towards those that are straight.

You are also dodging the question of what your reasoning for not supporting gay's rights are. If you want to not be considered intolerant and bigoted, then you will have to provide compelling reasoning to explain why you hold the position that you do.
If you don't, and if you choose not to, then you have only yourself to blame if you get called intolerant and bigoted.

And no one has said that they want you to be blown up. Not here anyway. As far as I've seen, no one here has called you intolerant or bigoted either. Not directly anyway. You're playing a victim.
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