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How people see and handle biogtry these days
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/9/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:

the 'love' between gays is only an imitation of what love between a male and female is. and i think that is obvious. when a straight couple love each other and they have sex (which should be an act of trust and beautiful grace) out of that love they make a baby the very prof that their love is true, and gays cant do that, its all messing around,kissing, fucking, and just sick brainwashing. if they choose to be that way so be it.

also please show me the peer reviewed research of gays having no choice but to be gay...


Can I just ask where on earth you get all these stupid ideas?
You say that the love between gay people is an imitation, and thus is not real. Who told you that? On what authority do you have this?
You say that gay people only have casual sex... again, on what authority? Who told you? If no one told you, then who do you think you are to make such statements?

And you say that a baby is "proof that their love is true". Bullshit. Concieving a baby is a natural process that occurs on its own, regardless of whether there is love there or not. That's why rape victims can get pregnant with their rapist's child. And how many broken, unhappy families are there? Plenty.
Babymaking is not some magical process that only happens when there is true love present. Do you have even the slightest idea of how biology works? Have you not gone to school?

And once again, you didn't answer my question. Why do you think being gay has to be a choce?
And even if it WAS (which it isn't), so what? Is there anything objectively wrong with being gay (aside from the fact that YOU think it's icky)?

Here's some reading material for you that I rounded up fairly quickly, with a buttload of studies backing them up, all of whom are referenced to in the articles. Now that you've asked for it, make sure that you actually DO read it.
http://libertyeducationforum.org/docs/whitepapers/is_it_a_choice_white_paper.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8332896
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf
http://borngay.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000006

I'm going to sleep now. Hopefully in the time it will take me to finish sleeping, you'll have become a bit more educated..
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Posted 4/9/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

Can I just ask where on earth you get all these stupid ideas?
You say that the love between gay people is an imitation, and thus is not real. Who told you that? On what authority do you have this?
You say that gay people only have casual sex... again, on what authority? Who told you? If no one told you, then who do you think you are to make such statements?

And you say that a baby is "proof that their love is true". Bullshit. Concieving a baby is a natural process that occurs on its own, regardless of whether there is love there or not. That's why rape victims can get pregnant with their rapist's child. And how many broken, unhappy families are there? Plenty.
Babymaking is not some magical thing that only comes into being when there is true love present. Do you have even the slightest idea of how biology works? Have you not gone to school?

And once again, you didn't answer my question. Why do you think being gay has to be a choce?
And even if it WAS (which it isn't), so what? Is there anything objectively wrong with being gay (aside from the fact that YOU think it's icky)?

Here's some reading material for you that I rounded up fairly quickly, with a buttload of studies backing them up, all of whom are referenced to in the articles.
http://libertyeducationforum.org/docs/whitepapers/is_it_a_choice_white_paper.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8332896
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf
http://borngay.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000006

I'm going to sleep now. Hopefully in the time it will take me to finish sleeping, you'll have gotten a bit more educated...


what authority? dont make me laugh, that would be like me asking you "what authority do you have to have your opinion" that is fucked up.

i am a warrior of the catholic faith, now i may not fully understand the reasons behind the churches traditions and laws, but i would sooner trust an organization that is thousands of years old than some scientists that dont know how a fucking bumble bee flies or even explain why we can think on our own as beings not walking flesh and bone.

as for believing it is a choice, it can be nothing but a choice even scientists agree that it is really strange for people to just pop out and say "IM GAYY" when they flop out of the pussy and as far as i can tell we are getting nowhere and this whole thing we have going on is a waste of time.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/9/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:

what authority? dont make me laugh, that would be like me asking you "what authority do you have to have your opinion" that is fucked up.


But we're not talking about opinion here. You were talking about how gay people only have casual sex, and how their love is not real. That's not an opinion. That's an assertion regarding other people's psychological function. It was an assertion of insight in the habits and mindset of other people. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of facts.
And as such, authority is of utmost importance. If your source has no credibility on the matter, then neither has your assertions. Plain and simple.



michaeldeska
i am a warrior of the catholic faith, now i may not fully understand the reasons behind the churches traditions and laws, but i would sooner trust an organization that is thousands of years old than some scientists that dont know how a fucking bumble bee flies or even explain why we can think on our own as beings not walking flesh and bone.


1. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's credible or trustworthy. If that was the case, you should convert to Hinduism instead.
Also, if the catholic church is God's chosen organization, then God has pretty lousy judging skills. Not that that's a surprise to anyone...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/chicago-archdiocese-releases-documents-detailing-abuse-coverup
http://time.com/4481/u-n-slams-vatican-over-child-abuse-cover-up/

2. Using the fact that science doesn't know everything as an argument against the scientific method is idiocy. Science is still the best tool we have for observing, deducing and understanding the reality of which we inhabit.

3. How bumblebees flies is a field of study that is totally, 100% irrelevant to this subject.

4. Even if it WAS relevant (which it isn't), your argument would STILL fail. Because we DO know how bumblebees fly. http://www.livescience.com/33075-how-bees-fly.html

Everything you say is like a non-stop barrage of ignorance.
Perhaps you should stop letting other people think for you, and start thinking for yourself. Do some actual research, rather than just mindlessly regurgitating everything your equally ignorant, scientificly illiterate peers tell you.



michaeldeska
as for believing it is a choice, it can be nothing but a choice even scientists agree that it is really strange for people to just pop out and say "IM GAYY" when they flop out of the pussy and as far as i can tell we are getting nowhere and this whole thing we have going on is a waste of time.


Once again you are making assertions without having a clue of what you're talking about. Had you actually read my sources, you'd understand the disturbing degree to which you've managed to completely miss the mark in everything you've asserted regarding LGBT people so far.

If we are getting nowhere, then that blame lies solely on you. I've provided you with plenty of evidence to support my case. If you refuse to accept that based on nothing other than the fact that it clashes with your pre-concieved notions, then that's a problem on your part, not mine.
If you want to end the discussion because of that, then fine. But if that's the case, then you have absolutely ZERO business complaining when other people call you out for being stupid, ignorant and bigoted.
You reap what you sow
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22 / F / Winding Circle
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Posted 4/9/14
Could you please discuss this somewhere else? This thread isn't about right or wrong opinions or facts. It's about how everyone is treated over their opinions. Instead you two are having a debate on homosexuals. I'm sure there's a thread for it somewhere or you could create one.
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Posted 4/9/14
I agree with the creator of the thread as they would know the purpose of the thread

All I will say about this topic is that regardless of my beliefs I don't think that science will ever give us the answers that people want for sexual orientation
Why? Because for every study I've seen 'proving' there's a gay gene in the human body I see another one 'proving' that there is not


The point of this thread is not whether homosexuality is right/wrong or natural/choice
It is about how people of differing opinions treat each other and how in recent times the tables seem to have reversed and that 'right' opinion is that homosexuality is a good beautiful thing when only a few years ago it was the opposite. Further more in those tables reversing, whereas before people who supported gays were being shunned now it seems to be more the opposite

I personally know someone who when the state they live in was having a vote on a bill that would be the first step to allowing gay marriage he at the time didn't know where he stood on those beliefs and was leaning away from wanting that bill passed.
One of the main reasons though that he was considering voting in favor of gay rights was because he was honestly scared of what people would think of him if he voted the opposite. He was scarred that if he voted against it suddenly HE would be the one who people would shun and despise

And if you look around those fears kind of make sense

While there's still plenty of hatred out there, even people who are even unclear about their stand are labeled as 'phobic" (which as already covered probably isn't the term to use)
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Posted 4/9/14
There will always be bigots, and spending too much time trying to 'reform' them is pointless. You really can't argue with someone's personal experience anyway. So we just make more ideas available and visible to people and eventually the old bigots will die. In time, those opinions will go away because no one alive will hold them. [This is my number 1 point and is more important than the rest of what I wrote.]

I personally am very happy that I am white. There are a lot of situations where that is (unfortunately still) an advantage. If every racial group had equal social, economic, political, etc... standing, then there would not be the same issue with prejudice back and forth. But this is not the case. People with less power are more sensitive to discrimination. You can certainly be racist toward white people, but white people don't really suffer because of this. On the other hand, minority races do suffer from the effects of racism. That is why it is more of a problem.

Also, there are multiple kinds of privilege. So while someone might be white, if they are female, poor, gay, and disabled, they are obviously much worse off than a wealthy black man. So it's a more complicated picture, and when you add in the complexity, you get the nuance you need. You can tell they are worse off because every added category makes you feel worse for this imaginary person.

I could add all sorts of categories. What if we have a poor, trans, muslim, native, deaf, dark skinned person? All of those things make this person's life harder. I have a hard time feeling too much sympathy for someone who has lots of privilege and is tired of having it brought to his attention. That is just silly. People without privilege notice it all the time. The least anyone privileged can do is be aware of where they stand.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/10/14 , edited 4/10/14

SquallFire
I personally know someone who when the state they live in was having a vote on a bill that would be the first step to allowing gay marriage he at the time didn't know where he stood on those beliefs and was leaning away from wanting that bill passed.
One of the main reasons though that he was considering voting in favor of gay rights was because he was honestly scared of what people would think of him if he voted the opposite. He was scarred that if he voted against it suddenly HE would be the one who people would shun and despise

And if you look around those fears kind of make sense

While there's still plenty of hatred out there, even people who are even unclear about their stand are labeled as 'phobic" (which as already covered probably isn't the term to use)


Good. This is a really good thing.
As long as LGBT people don't have equal rights, then THEY will be shunned and despised by large factions society. Of course, equal rights will not automaticly take this away, but it's an important step towards taking them away. Not allowing gay people to have equal rights stalls that process.
This way, the guy gets to have a little taste of what his actions might have on other people. That's a wonderful thing in my opinion. Probably the closest thing to karma I've ever believed in.
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Posted 4/10/14
I think equality would be a nice thing to have.

Mabe the way to go about making everybody happy is to have equality and maintain the right to refuse service.
Then the ability for gays to get married would be down to how easy it is to find a priest that's not a psycho
or they could start up a new religion that involves marriage and doesn't discriminate.
The chances of any current religion being legit is pretty much nil and from what I've seen; if there is a heaven, nobody's getting in anyway.
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Posted 4/10/14

Syndicaidramon [link url="/forumtopic-844441/how-people-see-and-handle-biogtry-these-days?fpid=46247507" title="View quoted

Good. This is a really good thing.
As long as LGBT people don't have equal rights, then THEY will be shunned and despised by large factions society. Of course, equal rights will not automaticly take this away, but it's an important step towards taking them away. Not allowing gay people to have equal rights stalls that process.
This way, the guy gets to have a little taste of what his actions might have on other people. That's a wonderful thing in my opinion. Probably the closest thing to karma I've ever believed in.


Umm no that's not a good thing

As long as people on either side are treated negatively that just perpetuates the cycle it isn't going to FIX anything

If a person is being torn apart for not being sure where they stand then they're probably more likely to actually become a bigget

The biggest problem is people aren't willing to treat each other as people
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Posted 4/11/14

SquallFire wrote:


Syndicaidramon [link url="/forumtopic-844441/how-people-see-and-handle-biogtry-these-days?fpid=46247507" title="View quoted

Good. This is a really good thing.
As long as LGBT people don't have equal rights, then THEY will be shunned and despised by large factions society. Of course, equal rights will not automaticly take this away, but it's an important step towards taking them away. Not allowing gay people to have equal rights stalls that process.
This way, the guy gets to have a little taste of what his actions might have on other people. That's a wonderful thing in my opinion. Probably the closest thing to karma I've ever believed in.


Umm no that's not a good thing

As long as people on either side are treated negatively that just perpetuates the cycle it isn't going to FIX anything

If a person is being torn apart for not being sure where they stand then they're probably more likely to actually become a bigget

The biggest problem is people aren't willing to treat each other as people


Yes. When the choice of people who have no stakes in the matter can lead to a severely reduced life quality for many people, for reasons completely arbitrary, then it's a good thing that they can feel the effects their choices will have themselves.
Let's substitute "gay rights" with "black rights" for instance. Where people were gonna vote if black people were gonna have the same rights or not.
There's no good reason to vote against it, other than archaic superstition and bigotry, just like with gay rights, and voting against it will lead to severely reduced life quality for those it affects.
How would it then not be a good thing for those people, who have no reason to vote against it, but might anyway for no good reason (i.e. the bigots), to get a taste of how their choice will affect the people whose rights are on the line?

And yes, it WILL fix things. Because it will give the oppressed minority the rights they need and deserve. That's solving an issue right there.

If someone does not vote in favor of gay rights, then they are either ignorant or a bigot. Simple as that. Just like how it is with the rights of black people, women, interracial couples, etc. There's no getting around it.

I've explained this before. Yes, there are some people that foam at the mouth of the slightest sing of insecurity, but many also do not. Many try to educate the ones who are unsure. Yes, people should not be so quick to get up in arms, but you can't really blame them either...
Injustice can only go on for so long before the cup runs over.
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

Yes. When the choice of people who have no stakes in the matter can lead to a severely reduced life quality for many people, for reasons completely arbitrary, then it's a good thing that they can feel the effects their choices will have themselves.
Let's substitute "gay rights" with "black rights" for instance. Where people were gonna vote if black people were gonna have the same rights or not.
There's no good reason to vote against it, other than archaic superstition and bigotry, just like with gay rights, and voting against it will lead to severely reduced life quality for those it affects.
How would it then not be a good thing for those people, who have no reason to vote against it, but might anyway for no good reason (i.e. the bigots), to get a taste of how their choice will affect the people whose rights are on the line?

And yes, it WILL fix things. Because it will give the oppressed minority the rights they need and deserve. That's solving an issue right there.

If someone does not vote in favor of gay rights, then they are either ignorant or a bigot. Simple as that. Just like how it is with the rights of black people, women, interracial couples, etc. There's no getting around it.

I've explained this before. Yes, there are some people that foam at the mouth of the slightest sing of insecurity, but many also do not. Many try to educate the ones who are unsure. Yes, people should not be so quick to get up in arms, but you can't really blame them either...
Injustice can only go on for so long before the cup runs over.


so what your saying is that if i dont support gay rights im a bigot? as far as i know gays can be gays as much all they want here in America and there is no real reason to 'vote' for them to be gay because it already ok for them to do so . very oppressed they are.
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Posted 4/11/14
Yeah, telling people they are bigets will solve everything

Or wait, maybe it push them over the edge

Frankly that it one of the dumbest things I have ever heard saying that 'other side' being treated the same way will fix things. People have a natural instinct to defend themselves and when you tell a person who is ignorant but is trying to learn that they are a biget well... that has more potential to do harm then good
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:

so what your saying is that if i dont support gay rights im a bigot? as far as i know gays can be gays as much all they want here in America and there is no real reason to 'vote' for them to be gay because it already ok for them to do so . very oppressed they are.


Yes.
Either that, or you're ignorant. Which based on what you've said regarging gay people earlier, it is clearly evident that you are.
"Voting for them to be gay" is such a gross distortion of what the issue is all about. Surely, you're not THAT ignorant
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/11/14

SquallFire wrote:

Yeah, telling people they are bigets will solve everything

Or wait, maybe it push them over the edge

Frankly that it one of the dumbest things I have ever heard saying that 'other side' being treated the same way will fix things. People have a natural instinct to defend themselves and when you tell a person who is ignorant but is trying to learn that they are a biget well... that has more potential to do harm then good


I've said before that if someone is merel unsure. I.e. ignorant, and not leaning particularly one way or the other -- then people shouldn't be foaming at the mouth. If someone is leaning towards voting against it for the same reason, then that is still the case, although it needs to be made known to them that they are wrong and WHY they are wrong. Also, it is still not unhealthy for them to be scared of being ripped a new one for voting against gay rights. That might give them some perspective. A sense of empathy, which is important.

That is, of course, assuming that they actually think that far. Which speaking of people voting against gay rights, I guess isn't very likely...
But still. People being scared of making their fellow human beings being treated like shit because they might get treated like shit in return, is not a bad thing. The best way to empathize with someone is to have a taste of what they have to go through.
People who don't face persecution have a much harder time empathizing with those who do.

A privileged fascist bigot who have no stakes in the matter, making a concious effort to vote to make other people's lives more miserable, deserves to be persecuted.
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

Yes.
Either that, or you're ignorant. Which based on what you've said regarging gay people earlier, it is clearly evident that you are.
"Voting for them to be gay" is such a gross distortion of what the issue is all about. Surely, you're not THAT ignorant?


dude, let me tell you something, calling someone a bigot or ignorant because they dont meat the same opinion or belief as you is asinine. honestly i dont care if people are gay, if they want to be gay i wont stop them, this doesnt mean i like it but its really non of my business and the whole gay rights thing is all politics, they are already allowed to be gay meaning they have the right to be. so am i a bigot for thinking so? am i ignorant?

"Voting for them to be gay" is such a gross distortion of what the issue is all about-what you said to me
if someone does not vote in favor of gay rights-what you said awhile ago
am i the only one who sees the contradiction?
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