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How people see and handle biogtry these days
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:


dude, let me tell you something, calling someone a bigot or ignorant because they dont meat the same opinion or belief as you is asinine. honestly i dont care if people are gay, if they want to be gay i wont stop them, this doesnt mean i like it but its really non of my business and the whole gay rights thing is all politics, they are already allowed to be gay meaning they have the right to be. so am i a bigot for thinking so? am i ignorant?

"Voting for them to be gay" is such a gross distortion of what the issue is all about-what you said to me
if someone does not vote in favor of gay rights-what you said awhile ago
am i the only one who sees the contradiction?


I would never call you a bigot simply because you don't share my opinion. You think way too highly of your own opinion if that's what you think.
I'd call you a bigot if you're against an entire group of people getting equal rights as "normal" people. For completely arbitrary reasons.
If this was regarding the rights of black people, you would agree that your stance would be bigoted, right? Well it's no different with gay people. At all.

"Gay rights" is not about being allowed to be gay. It's about them having the same legal rights as heterosexuals. In terms of marriage, adoption, etc. Seriously, how do you not know that? If you're gonna enter a discussion regarding "gay rights" then the LEAST you could do is educate yourself on what the issue is actually about..
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

I would never call you a bigot simply because you don't share my opinion. You think way too highly of your own opinion if that's what you think.
I'd call you a bigot if you're against an entire group of people getting equal rights as "normal" people. For completely arbitrary reasons.
If this was regarding the rights of black people, you would agree that your stance would be bigoted, right? Well it's no different with gay people. At all.

"Gay rights" is not about being allowed to be gay. It's about them having the same legal rights as heterosexuals. In terms of marriage, adoption, etc. Seriously, how do you not know that? If you're gonna enter a discussion regarding "gay rights" then the LEAST you could do is educate yourself on what the issue is actually about...

ion
so what your telling me that gays cant already marry and adopt? then that would prove the imitation i was talking about a couple days ago,but if they really want that for them selves then they can. and how would i be bigoted over black people? i never had anything against them
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:



ion
so what your telling me that gays cant already marry and adopt? then that would prove the imitation i was talking about a couple days ago,but if they really want that for them selves then they can. and how would i be bigoted over black people? i never had anything against them


I'm seriously starting to think you're trolling me... I refuse to believe that you're actually this stupid..
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Posted 4/11/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

I'm seriously starting to think you're trolling me... I refuse to believe that you're actually this stupid...


then in your eyes i am stupi
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Posted 4/12/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:

then in your eyes i am stupid


Look, just because someone is not legally allowed by the state (entirely because of religious zealots who are afraid of change) to have the same rights as someone else, doesn't mean that what they have is any less real. You understand that, don't you?

And I didn't say that you were bigoted against black people. I said that IF the case had been regarding black people and not gay people, no one would even think twice of labeling people who were voting against their rights as bigots. And rightfully so.
And the case of LGBT-people is no different from that
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Posted 4/12/14 , edited 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

Look, just because someone is not legally allowed by the state (entirely because of religious zealots who are afraid of change) to have the same rights as someone else, doesn't mean that what they have is any less real. You understand that, don't you?

And I didn't say that you were bigoted against black people. I said that IF the case had been regarding black people and not gay people, no one would even think twice of labeling people who were voting against their rights as bigots. And rightfully so.
And the case of LGBT-people is no different from that.


the definition of a bigot is someone who hates something for no good reason and they tend to be violent towards it. now that being said, if someone is a afraid of change (which is normal) then the scared, even i have a hard time coping with change but i adapt. now if the were against gay rights they wouldn't be a Bigot but fearful of their future. yes most religions don't like gays and with good reason. but i dont see any problem with them having rights as long as they mind their own business and i will mind mine.

and just because someone votes against something they're not all bigots, not that there are people that do vote against something are bigots. but the there are people who vote against it for strong moral reasons which calling them a bigot would be invalid and arrogant, yes the blacks faced a lot of discrimination and that issue was solved a long time ago, and the people who would have voted against then would mostly be bigots but there were people who saw things a different way and voted against them to. now the same goes for gay rights, obviously more touchy than blacks which in turn people have more moral reasons to vote against them, yes some who dont like gay rights are bigots but most are not.
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Posted 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:
the definition of a bigot is someone who hates something for no good reason and they tend to be violent towards it.


No, a bigot is someone who is prejudiced against people belonging to a certain group.


Bigot definition:
1. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
2. A person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race
3. A person who is extremely intolerant of another's creed, belief, or opinion.

Noun 1. bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
chauvinist - a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind
antifeminist - someone who does not believe in the social or economic or political equality of men and women
homophobe - a person who hates or fears homosexual people
drumbeater, partisan, zealot - a fervent and even militant proponent of something
racialist, racist - a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
sectarian, sectarist, sectary - a member of a sect; "most sectarians are intolerant of the views of any other sect"
segregationist, segregator - someone who believes the races should be kept apart


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot




michaeldeska
now that being said, if someone is a afraid of change (which is normal) then the scared, even i have a hard time coping with change but i adapt.


Just because it's normal doesn't mean it's not stupid. That it's not irrational and ignorant. It is.



michaeldeska
now if the were against gay rights they wouldn't be a Bigot but fearful of their future.


That would be if they were ignorant. But ignorance often comes packaged with prejudice as well. Either way, it's illogical and unjust.



michaeldeska
yes most religions don't like gays and with good reason. but i dont see any problem with them having rights as long as they mind their own business and i will mind mine.


What good reason?



michaeldeska
and just because someone votes against something they're not all bigots, not that there are people that do vote against something are bigots. but the there are people who vote against it for strong moral reasons which calling them a bigot would be invalid and arrogant.


Remember how I said either ignorant OR bigoted?
And anyways, those people are STILL in the wrong, because:

1. They are ignorant.
2. There's nothing wrong with being gay.
3. It's none of their business.
4. They're fascists.
5. It's none of their goddamn business.



michaeldeska
yes the blacks faced a lot of discrimination and that issue was solved a long time ago, and the people who would have voted against then would mostly be bigots but there were people who saw things a different way and voted against them to. now the same goes for gay rights, obviously more touchy than blacks which in turn people have more moral reasons to vote against them, yes some who dont like gay rights are bigots but most are not.


By your logic, not everyone who voted against black people's rights were bigots either, because they were ignorant towards the fact that black people are not lesser beings.
It doesn't make it any less wrong or any less despicable.

And no, there are no more reasons to vote against gay's rights than against black's rights. Why? Because none of the reasons are legitimate.
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Posted 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


michaeldeska wrote:
the definition of a bigot is someone who hates something for no good reason and they tend to be violent towards it.


No, a bigot is someone who is prejudiced against people belonging to a certain group.


Bigot definition:
1. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
2. A person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race
3. A person who is extremely intolerant of another's creed, belief, or opinion.

Noun 1. bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
chauvinist - a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind
antifeminist - someone who does not believe in the social or economic or political equality of men and women
homophobe - a person who hates or fears homosexual people
drumbeater, partisan, zealot - a fervent and even militant proponent of something
racialist, racist - a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
sectarian, sectarist, sectary - a member of a sect; "most sectarians are intolerant of the views of any other sect"
segregationist, segregator - someone who believes the races should be kept apart


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot




michaeldeska
now that being said, if someone is a afraid of change (which is normal) then the scared, even i have a hard time coping with change but i adapt.


Just because it's normal doesn't mean it's not stupid. That it's not irrational and ignorant. It is.



michaeldeska
now if the were against gay rights they wouldn't be a Bigot but fearful of their future.


That would be if they were ignorant. But ignorance often comes packaged with prejudice as well. Either way, it's illogical and unjust.



michaeldeska
yes most religions don't like gays and with good reason. but i dont see any problem with them having rights as long as they mind their own business and i will mind mine.


What good reason?



michaeldeska
and just because someone votes against something they're not all bigots, not that there are people that do vote against something are bigots. but the there are people who vote against it for strong moral reasons which calling them a bigot would be invalid and arrogant.


Remember how I said either ignorant OR bigoted?
And anyways, those people are STILL in the wrong, because:

1. They are ignorant.
2. There's nothing wrong with being gay.
3. It's none of their business.
4. They're fascists.
5. It's none of their goddamn business.



michaeldeska
yes the blacks faced a lot of discrimination and that issue was solved a long time ago, and the people who would have voted against then would mostly be bigots but there were people who saw things a different way and voted against them to. now the same goes for gay rights, obviously more touchy than blacks which in turn people have more moral reasons to vote against them, yes some who dont like gay rights are bigots but most are not.


By your logic, not everyone who voted against black people's rights were bigots either, because they were ignorant towards the fact that black people are not lesser beings.
It doesn't make it any less wrong or any less despicable.

And no, there are no more reasons to vote against gay's rights than against black's rights. Why? Because none of the reasons are legitimate.


ok so what your saying that there is no real reason why people would not support gay rights? i think thats wrong, it think its wrong for you to say that any religion(that has been around longer than you btw) or type of life style is ignorant and or are bigots based on the fact that they dont support gay rights, Catholics obviously dont support it , nor do jews and Muslims and more. so what you mean to say is that all religions are ignorant because they dont support something that CLEARLY goes against there ways? yeah its not there business to stop them from being gay or stop their rights, but based on the fact that you think people ought to vote for them is asinine.


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Posted 4/12/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:


ok so what your saying that there is no real reason why people would not support gay rights?


Yes. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Unless you can provide me with a good reason not to.




michaeldeska
i think thats wrong, it think its wrong for you to say that any religion(that has been around longer than you btw) or type of life style is ignorant and or are bigots based on the fact that they dont support gay rights,


First of all: Just because something has been around for a long time, doesn't mean it's good. As a matter of fact, chances are, if we're talking about morals, laws, etc. -- they are most likely long since outdated. Archaic. Draconian.
And this is definitely the case with religion.

Had there actually been something wrong with being gay, or if there had been some ACTUALLY LEGITIMATE REASONS for not supporting gay rights, I might not have called them bigots. But there isn't.



michaeldeska
Catholics obviously dont support it , nor do jews and Muslims and more. so what you mean to say is that all religions are ignorant because they dont support something that CLEARLY goes against there ways? yeah its not there business to stop them from being gay or stop their rights, but based on the fact that you think people ought to vote for them is asinine.


Yes. Religions ARE ignorant. Not just because they don't support gays rights because it's against their dogmas, but simply also because homosexuality is against their dogmas in the first place. For absolutely no good reason what so ever.
Religious dogma is INHERENTLY bigoted.

And no. It's not asinine. Because it's a matter of basic human rights. And there is NO excuse to be against it, even if you disagree with the practice.
For instance -- I hate religion. I absolutely despise it.
Yet despite that, I think freedom of religion is extremely important. It's a basic human right, and I would defend it with every breath, even though I hate religious dogmas and the effects it has on the world.

Why? Because human rights is more important that my own subjective opinion. And I'm smart enough to understand that
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Posted 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


michaeldeska wrote:



ok so what your saying that there is no real reason why people would not support gay rights?


Yes. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Unless you can provide me with a good reason not to.




michaeldeska
i think thats wrong, it think its wrong for you to say that any religion(that has been around longer than you btw) or type of life style is ignorant and or are bigots based on the fact that they dont support gay rights,


First of all: Just because something has been around for a long time, doesn't mean it's good. As a matter of fact, chances are, if we're talking about morals, laws, etc. -- they are most likely long since outdated. Archaic. Draconian.
And this is definitely the case with religion.

Had there actually been something wrong with being gay, or if there had been some ACTUALLY LEGITIMATE REASONS for not supporting gay rights, I might not have called them bigots. But there isn't.



michaeldeska
Catholics obviously dont support it , nor do jews and Muslims and more. so what you mean to say is that all religions are ignorant because they dont support something that CLEARLY goes against there ways? yeah its not there business to stop them from being gay or stop their rights, but based on the fact that you think people ought to vote for them is asinine.


Yes. Religions ARE ignorant. Not just because they don't support gays rights because it's against their dogmas, but simply also because homosexuality is against their dogmas in the first place. For absolutely no good reason what so ever.
Religious dogma is INHERENTLY bigoted.

And no. It's not asinine. Because it's a matter of basic human rights. And there is NO excuse to be against it, even if you disagree with the practice.
For instance -- I hate religion. I absolutely despise it.
Yet despite that, I think freedom of religion is extremely important. It's a basic human right, and I would defend it with every breath, even though I hate religious dogmas and the effects it has on the world.

Why? Because human rights is more important that my own subjective opinion. And I'm smart enough to understand that.


in most religions being gay is a sin, and their morals are not outdated, the only difference between today and centuries before is the increase of technology,i adopt a lot of them like not to commit murder, adultery, not to lie or steal ext. nothing has changed. morals are not something you can hold physically and does not hold mass or any type of time, so they cant be outdated.

im not tring to say freedom of religion is not important...because it is. and i to will defend it, but just think its wrong to think that someone would be ignorant or a bigot because they dont support gay rights, not unless i heard there reason which can make them a bigot or not.

if i explained the reason Catholics despise gayness er whatever it would take a lot of time, i would just read some scriptures or some parts from the bible if i were you, or you can talk to a local priest if you have one around, because i am in no position to debate that.
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Posted 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:

in most religions being gay is a sin, and their morals are not outdated, the only difference between today and centuries before is the increase of technology,i adopt a lot of them like not to commit murder, adultery, not to lie or steal ext. nothing has changed. morals are not something you can hold physically and does not hold mass or any type of time, so they cant be outdated.


Yes of course not. Like that part in the old testament about how it was okay to beat your slaves to near death... Not outdated at all.
That part about women being lesser beings than men... totally not outdated.
That part about women having to marry their rapists... totally awesome and not at all outdated.
That part about killing apostates, homosexuals, witches and adulterers... still totally relevant and kewl...

... Right?

Sure, you also have commandments like not to kill, steal, lie, etc. (all of which God has done/commanded his followers to do, btw), but those aren't morals that are inherent to religion. You can have those without religion perfectly fine.



michaeldeska
im not tring to say freedom of religion is not important...because it is. and i to will defend it, but just think its wrong to think that someone would be ignorant or a bigot because they dont support gay rights, not unless i heard there reason which can make them a bigot or not.


But there is. They're not supporting human rights. For completely arbitrary reasons. That means that they are either ignorant, or they are bigoted. Or both.
There is no other way. There is no other alternative. They HAVE to be either one.

If you disagree with me, then please tell me what they are instead, if not ignorant and/or bigoted.



michaeldeska
if i explained the reason Catholics despise gayness er whatever it would take a lot of time, i would just read some scriptures or some parts from the bible if i were you, or you can talk to a local priest if you have one around, because i am in no position to debate that.


I know why catholics don't like gays. Because God says so. I've been a christian myself.
And either way, whatever their reason may be, is completely, 100% irrelevant. Because that's just their own beliefs. And they have no right to try and impose that upon everyone else.
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Posted 4/12/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


michaeldeska wrote:

in most religions being gay is a sin, and their morals are not outdated, the only difference between today and centuries before is the increase of technology,i adopt a lot of them like not to commit murder, adultery, not to lie or steal ext. nothing has changed. morals are not something you can hold physically and does not hold mass or any type of time, so they cant be outdated.


Yes of course not. Like that part in the old testament about how it was okay to beat your slaves to near death... Not outdated at all.
That part about women being lesser beings than men... totally not outdated.
That part about women having to marry their rapists... totally awesome and not at all outdated.
That part about killing apostates, homosexuals, witches and adulterers... still totally relevant and kewl...

... Right?

Sure, you also have commandments like not to kill, steal, lie, etc. (all of which God has done/commanded his followers to do, btw), but those aren't morals that are inherent to religion. You can have those without religion perfectly fine.



michaeldeska
im not tring to say freedom of religion is not important...because it is. and i to will defend it, but just think its wrong to think that someone would be ignorant or a bigot because they dont support gay rights, not unless i heard there reason which can make them a bigot or not.


But there is. They're not supporting human rights. For completely arbitrary reasons. That means that they are either ignorant, or they are bigoted. Or both.
There is no other way. There is no other alternative. They HAVE to be either one.

If you disagree with me, then please tell me what they are instead, if not ignorant and/or bigoted.



michaeldeska
if i explained the reason Catholics despise gayness er whatever it would take a lot of time, i would just read some scriptures or some parts from the bible if i were you, or you can talk to a local priest if you have one around, because i am in no position to debate that.


I know why catholics don't like gays. Because God says so. I've been a christian myself.
And either way, whatever their reason may be, is completely, 100% irrelevant. Because that's just their own beliefs. And they have no right to try and impose that upon everyone else.

im sorry you over thinking this, those morals you posted are still around, it may not be accepted but people still do that, yes people has slaves illegally and beat them a shit,and some men still believe that women are lesser,im not so sure about marring rapists, an believe it or not their are people out there that kill people for those reasons not that i like or you like or anyone else but their out there unfortunately.

and the old testament is now only used for teachings of the time before Christ, its the new testament that we follow morally

and i think it is really hurt full and rude for you to say that someones belief is a 100% irrelevant and just because you said that im done here, it would be pointless of me to debate with you if all you do is critisize my religion and others......just absolutely stupid
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Posted 4/12/14
*sigh* Would you please move this gay rights discussion elsewhere? It no longer is pertaining to the topic.

Also, as a person who was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic high school, I can say Catholics are NOT against gays. They're against the sexual acts and therefore marriage (since in the Catholic faith, that's what marriage is for, to unite man and woman in all ways), so the ONLY gay rights they would be against would be gay marriage, not anything else. I had a moral issues course pertaining to the Catholic Faith for a semester and that actually something we learned.

Now, please move to another discussion topic, most likely sexual orientation or even create a new one if you want to continue this discussion, I'm tired of this thread being cluttered with rights discussions when it's really about how anyone could just state an opinion, be polite and all that, and people will call them bigots and verbally attack them for simply having an opinion. Yes, the minority is the one being suppressed but people now so vehemently defend them that me just having a culture shock issue when meeting new people (ANY new people, but it is admittedly worse when people are obvious of a different race or religion or when I find out something about them similar to that)... those people will call me ignorant and racist when all I need to is to get used to it, and I do eventually, because I do fight those initial instincts. But it is hard, there are times when I find myself not 'clicking' or being wary of someone for some stupid fact and I hate that part of me, but even if I say that to someone, I'm called a bigot and ignorant even though I fight that part of me every day.
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Posted 4/12/14 , edited 4/12/14

michaeldeska wrote:


im sorry you over thinking this, those morals you posted are still around, it may not be accepted but people still do that, yes people has slaves illegally and beat them a shit,and some men still believe that women are lesser,im not so sure about marring rapists, an believe it or not their are people out there that kill people for those reasons not that i like or you like or anyone else but their out there unfortunately.


Yes. And that is horrible. Because people who are educated knows that those things are outdated. That they are wrong, if we are to live in a society that is as good as it can be. If we are to live in a society where human rights and dignity is valued and respected.
Just because there are still people who does them, doesn't mean they aren't outdated. Racism is outdated. And yet there are still racists.




michaeldeska
and the old testament is now only used for teachings of the time before Christ, its the new testament that we follow morally.


That is true. However, by saying that you don't support gay rights because of your own personal religious convictions, you seem to totally disregard the golden rule, preferring instead to enforce your own religious beliefs upon others, just like they did in the old testament...

That doesn't seem very christlike to me...


michaeldeska
and i think it is really hurt full and rude for you to say that someones belief is a 100% irrelevant and just because you said that im done here, it would be pointless of me to debate with you if all you do is critisize my religion and others......just absolutely stupid


I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was not my intention. I'm truly, deeply sorry if I did.

However, it IS irrelevant in the sense that it is only YOUR religious belief. And you have no right to treat it as if it applies to anyone other than yourself and those who share your faith.
But that IS what you're doing if you refuse to support gay rights just because your own religious beliefs says it's wrong for YOU to do
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Posted 4/12/14

Ouzoathena11 wrote:

*sigh* Would you please move this gay rights discussion elsewhere? It no longer is pertaining to the topic.

Also, as a person who was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic high school, I can say Catholics are NOT against gays. They're against the sexual acts and therefore marriage (since in the Catholic faith, that's what marriage is for, to unite man and woman in all ways), so the ONLY gay rights they would be against would be gay marriage, not anything else. I had a moral issues course pertaining to the Catholic Faith for a semester and that actually something we learned.

Now, please move to another discussion topic, most likely sexual orientation or even create a new one if you want to continue this discussion, I'm tired of this thread being cluttered with rights discussions when it's really about how anyone could just state an opinion, be polite and all that, and people will call them bigots and verbally attack them for simply having an opinion. Yes, the minority is the one being suppressed but people now so vehemently defend them that me just having a culture shock issue when meeting new people (ANY new people, but it is admittedly worse when people are obvious of a different race or religion or when I find out something about them similar to that)... those people will call me ignorant and racist when all I need to is to get used to it, and I do eventually, because I do fight those initial instincts. But it is hard, there are times when I find myself not 'clicking' or being wary of someone for some stupid fact and I hate that part of me, but even if I say that to someone, I'm called a bigot and ignorant even though I fight that part of me every day.


Well to be fair, while it does sometimes sway, it still is grounded in the topic of the thread.

Note that a lot of the argument is regarding whether those who don't support gays rights are bigoted or not, which is relevant to the topic of the thread... But fine. I'll move it in my next post.
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