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Post Reply Why Oreimo is a better story backwards.
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Posted 4/18/14

Man_Of_Leisure wrote:


Koda89
I could easily turn around and say that people were so invested in seeing their favorite girl win that they choose to ignore the rather obvious signs of attraction between the two. You even said that you noticed the incest hints but choose to see them only as gags that didn't mean anything. You interpreted those "gags" wrong because you choose to look at them at face value and not at their deeper meaning.
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They put obvious signs of attraction for every female character.

- Kyousuke harasses Ayase to go out with him all the time.

- Kyousuke goes out of his way to help Kuroneko fit in, and even dates her.

- Kyousuke has glasses fetish erotica magazines that he hides under his bed, and his best friend, that he spends most of his time with is a girl with glasses.

If you're saying his sister is the obvious route you're kidding yourself. There are hints here and there that support every female character EXCEPT Kirino.

A brother repairing the relationship he has with his sister and exploring what it means to be an Otaku would be a compelling story line by it self. However the series abandons basic narrative structure to shoehorn in an incestuous love interest that makes the least amount of sense of all his options in the first place, even if you exclude the incest.

For example all the things that he likes about Kirino, Ayase also has. She's beautiful, smart, and hardworking. Ayase is basically Kirino but with out her unhealthy habits which Kyousuke doesn't really like anyways. As he pretty much only plays Eroge when his sister harasses him to play in the first place. Yet he does not choose her, and shes even nice to him before he attempts to repair her relationship with his sister by making himself the villain. So the only real difference is that Kirino is his sister. Is that what he likes about her? No outstanding qualities except for sharing DNA?


I love this post. Agreed 100%.
The Wise Wizard
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Posted 4/18/14

Fazejaden wrote:

just to clarify is it just first cousins what about 2nd cousins that's what has me confused because a lot of people say it's only 1st cousins

Second cousins are more distantly related to you than first cousins.

A second cousin would be anyone that is a biological child of one of your first cousins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin#Basic_definitions

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Posted 4/18/14

sonic720 wrote:


maxgale wrote:
Except it's not that I chose to see the story that way, it was objectively being that way. Kirino originally wasn't tsundere, she was just simply disgusted whenever the incest thing was brought up, and repeated the "don't confuse 2D for 3D" argument typical of otaku eroge fans. (The fact the series went on to ignore this is a prime example of the show jarringly changing its narrative). When Kirino and her bro did the typical "falling and awkwardly groping" gag, the reactions of her pals was the payoff of the joke by how absurd they were being in seeing incestuous vibes to the scene, which informed the audience they were also to treat the incest thing as a gag. Part of Ayases' entire character was to be an absurd reaction to the idea of incest between the siblings, once more informing the audience as to the nature of it being a joke.

I don't think most fans were invested in a "best girl" winning until S2, when the show actually started to become a harem, because S1 was all about the nature of the non-romantic sibling relationship between Kirino and her bro.

Speaking of deeper meanings, part of what makes so many disappointed in the show is entirely how it changed gears from exploring a relationship / family and familial dynamics not often explored in anime, and doing it well, to what it became.


Well said. I agree with your take that it was more about family and bonds in the first arc, and the incest stuff was played for laughs. Honestly, I thought the first arc was phenomenal and had some of the best character dynamics I've ever seen in anime. Then the second arc deviated from that feeling somewhat to become just like an eroge visual novel where you have to choose a girl. Kyousuke was only a caring older brother with innocent feelings for his sister until he developed more romantic ones for her in the second arc. Kirino always had brocon feelings under the surface but used eroge as a means of escaping from the reality it was a forbidden love.

Both of them realized their feelings were not healthy and they would be scorned if they acted on them. However, Kyousuke, because he realized how much he truly cared for his sister, gave her a fleeting fantasy so she could move past her obsession with him. I'm still somewhat unsure if Kyousuke developed a genuine unhealthy obsession with his sister based on how things played out in the first arc, but I can sort of see the time they spent together getting closer as siblings as fostering that possibility in retrospect. I don't think that's quite how he felt about her, though, and that he was more concerned with her well being than anything.

Because he cared about her getting over her brocon, he chose to indulge her fantasy for a time as a means of "life counseling." Him cutting ties with the other girls to pick her was giving her the symbolic brother she looked up to and wished would never leave her for another girl all those years ago. That "honeymoon" period was essentially their last "life counseling" session that would cure her of her brocon by showing her it's only meant to be a fantasy and not something beneficial for either of them; basically, a learn your lesson the hard way by giving you the thing that's bad for you so you realize it's bad approach.

Their relationship never seemed, to me at least, that it was passionate or even sexual in nature, rather it was them reconnecting as close siblings one last time before they set out on their adult life separately. Their kiss blurs things a bit, and I wonder how much romantic feelings Kyousuke had for her then if any? Without it, though, she may not have been fully cured, so I can see it either way really. The show's earlier messages and themes never sold me on Kyousuke having genuine romantic feelings for Kirino, so I choose to see it as him being, an unorthodox, life counselor one last time.





Not feeling like the series adequately portrayed a romantic relationship between Kirino and Kyuosuke was a flaw I feel the show has as well. Eventually yeah, Kirino is portrayed as being tsundere, but there never was a feeling that her bro reciprocated those feelings; all the fan servicey ogling of Kirino I always figured was regular fan service, not meant to be taken as though framing Kyousukes' P.O.V. Almost every scene where it could be argued that he is displaying romantic feelings for her requires those feelings to come across as forced, whereas those scenes work better when viewed as portraying his familial love for her.

It doesn't help that the best scenes in the show which are used to help form the basis for their romantic pairing in the OVAs also appear to be meant as satirizing both rom-coms in general and more specifically the tropes of visual novels: the best example I can recall is the scene where Kirino is modeling the wedding dress, and Kyousuke rides the pornographic loli bike to take her to the concert she wants to see. I thought it was an excellent take on "the knight in shining armor on a white horse whisking his bride / princess away", and the fact that Kirino and her bro are wearing wedding garb while riding a pornographic loli bike to go to the concert of the idol group who performs the theme songs of the series was meant to say, "yeah, the idea of them actually getting married / getting together is a joke," and reinforces just how much of a loving brother he is (instead of Kirino wanting to be a brother-lover).




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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14
Its hard for me to put into words why I didn't really like the ending of this series but it just felt bad. Everything from the multiple confessions, to the fight, to the conclusion was just badly done. I personally think Oreimo should've been structured differently to receive multiple ending for the different girls but even with just the one choice, it didn't feel good.

Also, the fact that Kirino was far from best girl didn't help...As others have said, the romance wasn't really developed well, even in a normal setting. When adding the fact that it is incest, it just seems to be too far of a leap.

EDIT: I'll add that the problem was moreso in execution than the story...
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Posted 4/18/14
even though i never seen oreimo, i agree! the story would have been alot better backwards
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Posted 4/18/14

Kusa89 wrote:

Still trying to forget those last 3 eps which, imo, destroyed the whole anime(even though everyone knew this was coming)


True and True, it was completely destroyed
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Posted 4/18/14

Fazejaden wrote:
this is what i don't get about japan cousins are ok but everything else isn't allowed it doesn't make that much sense really

People in general have a problem with sibling incest. Look up the Westermarck Effect vs. GSA.

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Posted 5/15/14 , edited 5/15/14
I guess I was in the same boat as most. How many others out there were like me, actually saying, "WHAT?" to the TV repeatedly towards the end and the OVAs?

Still, a take that I haven't seen mentioned is that Kyousuke might very well have succeeded at his original goal. What's that, you ask?

Paraphrasing here, but wasn't his original stance that he wanted an easy life? Also implying that romantic relationships fell outside of his plans, since they're too complicated and stressful? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it's a possibility that the creator had this in mind the whole time.

1. Just wants to be left alone and lazy.
2. Gets caught up protecting his sister's secret.
3. General shenanigans, but being sociable.
4. Eventually agreeing to try a relationship with Kuroneko.
5. Getting dumped.
6. Realizing/deciding that he was right in the first place (and/or realizing that he and Kirino are out of line).
7. Figure out optimal path to push everyone away, so he can be out of everyone's way,so they can go on without him.
8. Left alone and lazy. Mission Accomplished!

Kirino was a special case, since she's family. Whether he had authentic deeper feelings or not, I don't know. But he was willing to go as far as she wanted, it seemed. Warped sense of responsibility, perhaps? In any case, she was the avenue through which he was able to alienate everyone else, as well.

Anyway, I hope my meaning is clear. To put it shorter:

1. Kirino: You used to be cool, but now you suck.
2. Kyousuke: OK, I'll try to be helpful and human.
3. Kyousuke: Wow, I got hurt and it sucks. I quit. Let me pour gas on these bridges...got a light?
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Posted 5/15/14

Would you believe I have found the secret to being unsociable without having to declare to the world I want to have sex with my sister.
Posted 5/15/14
Just read the light novels, was about 100x funnier than the anime.
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Posted 5/15/14 , edited 5/15/14

bathroom64 wrote:


Would you believe I have found the secret to being unsociable without having to declare to the world I want to have sex with my sister.


Haha, you have a great point there!



Not saying that it makes it a better ending. Just that it gives it a better rationale as to why it ended the way it did.
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Posted 5/15/14
I still don't get it. Is everyone hating on OreImo because of wincest ending or because the damn "norms of society" made it turn into what it did?
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Posted 5/15/14

TsunLemon wrote:
I still don't get it. Is everyone hating on OreImo because of wincest ending or because the damn "norms of society" made it turn into what it did?

I think most are turned off by the fact that he picked his sister, then trolled them. So basically the author made everyone hate the series when:
1) He didn't pick the girl they wanted
2) If you were a Kirino fan, you got trolled

I think that is the only explanation if they were ok with the incest, but still hated the anime. Idk.
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Posted 5/15/14

TsunLemon wrote:

I still don't get it. Is everyone hating on OreImo because of wincest ending or because the damn "norms of society" made it turn into what it did?


Seems like the OP disliked the incest ending, but in all honesty, the ending was just bad from pretty much any perspective

Oreimo would have been a better story if it was a better story...
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Posted 5/15/14

bathroom64 wrote:


TsunLemon wrote:
I still don't get it. Is everyone hating on OreImo because of wincest ending or because the damn "norms of society" made it turn into what it did?

I think most are turned off by the fact that he picked his sister, then trolled them. So basically the author made everyone hate the series when:
1) He didn't pick the girl they wanted
2) If you were a Kirino fan, you got trolled

I think that is the only explanation if they were ok with the incest, but still hated the anime. Idk.


So pretty much both?
I still don't see why people hate on the Anime just because the ending sucked tho. The ending indeed sucked, but the series was masterful, and it is in my top 30 series. (maybe top 20, but not too sure).
I feel mostly bad for the author than the fans tho, since he wasn't able to give the ending he wanted.


sundin13 wrote:


TsunLemon wrote:

I still don't get it. Is everyone hating on OreImo because of wincest ending or because the damn "norms of society" made it turn into what it did?


Seems like the OP disliked the incest ending, but in all honesty, the ending was just bad from pretty much any perspective

Oreimo would have been a better story if it was a better story...


It was a great story, just a crappy ending.
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