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Teaching Christianity is Child Abuse
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 4/18/14
Lawrence Krauss: Teaching Creationism is Child Abuse

What do you think of this? I believe that teaching Christianity in school is wrong, but I think saying Christianity is child abuse is pushing it. I believe parents should be about to indoctrinate their children as long as it doesn't cause harm to the child....but I realize many people have different definitions of what harm is. So is it really child abuse?

This is not about whether god is real or not:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-847063/is-god-real
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 5/1/14
Even though the clause of "separating church and state" prevents religion from being brought into government institutions like the public schooling system and whatnot, I do not believe it is child abuse. Saying any religion at all is child abuse--not just Christianity--is partiality. Saying a certain race does this or that will spark controversy and most everyone will diss the bigot. Religion is different. The thing is, religion is such a touchy topic for so many people. But anyway, there were and still are plenty of extremely learned minds who believe in God. Why it should be abusive to the little ones is beyond me. If anyone takes the time to do the research, most of the brilliant minds of the Middle Ages and even before were creationists. When Mother Theresa was still alive, she drew crowds and crowds of people--not just Christians--to herself. Does her extremely-deep belief in God hinder and hurt children and humanity? Research some saints who have written impressive documents and give hearty and deep debates about ideas of the universe.

Either way, I think it should be the legal guardian's decision whether or not the child/ren will be nurtured in this environment.

It is not just a matter of quickly prioritizing your ideals. Weigh the pros and cons and ask yourself what makes the most logical and moral sense.
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 9/5/14
I think it is child abuse.
Not in the traditional sense, where the abuser is inflicting intentional harm upon the victim, mind you, but a kind of abuse that is ignorant and perhaps even well meaning, but still ends up causing great harm.
Both for the individual, for their peers, and for humanity at large.

By that measure, it is not only child abuse, but abuse towards humanity as a whole. As our future is dependent upon our children. If we want to advance as a species, or even just SURVIVE as a species, then our children must grow up to be as educated and rational as possible.
Religion works actively against both of these things.



GarasuRin-chan wrote:

Even though the clause of "separating church and state" prevents religion from being 'used' in many government-owned operations, if parents want to teach their kids religion, so be it. I was born and raised through Christian schooling and loved every minute of it. It is not only about theology, but raising kids to be a virtuous and noble generation.


Here's a much better ideology for you to teach in order to achieve that goal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
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Posted 4/17/14
Abuse implies a deliberate attempt to harm the child which I do not think any Christian parent who is a creationist wants to do to their children. Why are we confusing real abuse, beating, sexual violation and etc. of children with failure to teach a scientific theory over creationism? What does that make parents before the advent of modern science? Were all of them abusers? I don’t think so. There are actual and real types of child abuse, sexual, violent or bad treatment and it does us no good to conflate the teaching of creationism as abuse. It is not abuse, at worst it is a wrong idea concerning the history of earth and the universe and people have managed to live lives of tremendous good and importance without it along with a whole host of other scientific theories, historic facts or philosophical explanations of reality.

What harm is it other than them not knowing the general scientific theory of evolution? How does that abuse the child? Is lack of a certain knowledge abuse of the child? No doubt the argument will go something that evolution explains our society and how we arrived at current time we are at, granted but can't we say the same of Christianity? Philosophy? Literature? All of these things contributed to society we live in and yet how many children know about the influence of Christian Philosophy on the world we now have, how pervading it was not only in morality but in the world view which lead to the modern era? Not many and no one considers it abuse and quite alot of common people and not a few prominent people get this past history tremendously wrong

I quite frankly don't care if a parent teaches a child creationism or evolution, I am more concerned with history and care more about children understanding their background and how the west came to be as it is. I’m more concerned with teaching children how to be good people. If you want to ban it from schools, then do it, fight for it if you are so passionate about teaching the theory and some of the basic intricacies of that theory that students will forget a year after high school finishes( I know did, along with most of high school). It’s not abuse to not teach evolution or to teach creationism; at most it’s simply wrong and we tolerate a lot of false myths about history in society today which should be corrected if brought up and should be debated if the need arises.
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 9/5/14

Iconodule wrote:
What harm is it other than them not knowing the general scientific theory of evolution? How does that abuse the child?


Let's see:

- It makes them prone to bigotry towards others (LGBT people for instance).
- It makes them intellectually handicapped.
- It contributes to the collective ignorance of the population at large, which in turns slows down the collective progress of mankind.
- It makes them subject to needless ridicule and embarrassment from scientificly literate people.
- It makes them prone to authoritarian behavior.
etc.




Iconodule
Is lack of a certain knowledge abuse of the child? No doubt the argument will go something that evolution explains our society and how we arrived at current time we are at, granted but can't we say the same of Christianity? Philosophy? Literature? All of these things contributed to society we live in and yet how many children know about the influence of Christian Philosophy on the world we now have, how pervading it was not only in morality but in the world view which lead to the modern era? Not many and no one considers it abuse and quite alot of common people and not a few prominent people get this past history tremendously wrong


Acknowledging the part christianity has had in shaping the world is quite different from teaching christianity as truth.



Iconodule
I quite frankly don't care if a parent teaches a child creationism or evolution, I am more concerned with history and care more about children understanding their background and how the west came to be as it is.


But you're not concerned about children being capable of ensuring the progress and survival of our species?
Arguably a far more important cause in my opinion.



Iconodule
I’m more concerned with teaching children how to be good people.


Religion is not at all needed for this.
In fact, it can often times be an obstacle.
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Posted 4/17/14
I often find bigotry is independent of whether one knows the theory of evolution. Your disdain for Christianity could almost be called bigotry but I think you are simply mistaken. It is rather off topic to go into a debate of the LGBT and Christianity’s response to this modern movement so I will continue on, ignoring this comment. As for being intellectually handicapped some of the most brilliant people I have known and talked to were creationists and it does not make one automatically stupid to believe in the creation event, although a lot of modern theologians and philosophers and scientists whom are Christian tend to go for the non-literal interpretation of genesis. Those people will have to deal with your arguments and you can dismiss them and call them "those who block progress," but does that make them abusers of children?

One could hardly accuse some of the great intellectual saints of being idiots, intellectually handicapped, they were quite intelligent men in the field they studied and debated in. When I look at the complexity and knowledge of say the debates between Ausberg and Constantinople, it is rather unfair to call them intellectually handicapped, or the complete exposition of the Orthodox faith by John Damascus. Don’t judge by appearances, they might deceive you and simply because one is wrong in one area doesn’t make him wrong in another. For instance many scientists are poor expositors of the bible, poor defenders of atheism because they simply have not acquired the skills to do so. That and some people are just stubborn.

As for ridicule, I could ridicule a lot of things in modern culture and I do. I scoff at the unlearned who says Pascha was Pagan and evidently has no clue as the feast and it’s long history and roots within Judaism. But if the ridicule which you give to them, calling them stupid, bigoted, Ignorant and a whole lot of other words which I think is unfair you will have your result, they will either abandon their ideas not because they were convinced but because society tells them they must or they will retreat deeper into Christianity to further develop their bigotry, their intellectual handicaps and ignorance. You aren’t going to stop people from having stupid opinions or different opinions, that are just human nature.

Now I agree that it is quite different to acknowledge the part Christianity had to play in the development of the west and the east respectively when compared to its truth, but that was not my point. Many people are ignorant of these facts, many people seem to think this modern western world with its notions of anti slavery, anti bigotry, kindness towards the poor and down trodden is just the natural evolution of things when it seems to me anyway that we believe in these things more or less because of the influence of Christianity. Many people do not know this, many people do not know how our modern age came to be through a combination of many different things, not just religion mind you. There is so much knowledge and we would be forced to all know this one branch? That does what for us? I think on intuition people have always recognised that traits of the father and mother are within the children or how to breed certain pairs of dogs or cats. This knowledge is good for the scientist in the lab who has to deal with that information constantly changing, especially in biology in attempting to find cures for specific diseases and the like. It however does not prevent one from living a normal and peaceful life if he doesn’t know the exact process.

Now insofar as evolution is concerned with ensuring the survival of children, I ask how? We all try to live in this world, we all tried to survive before the 19th century, how does me knowing evolution and its theory get me bread to eat when I’m a beggar on the street? Maybe I can take comfort that I am the weak dying off because I was not good enough. It’s the charities whom are seeking to do good or the people that want to help the beggar that are in the forefront of that man’s mind.

As for religion being needed for being good. It is not my place to argue and divert the thread that religion, specifically the Christian religion and the full practice of it will make a person good. Rather I am only generally saying, to anyone of any persuasion, that we should teach children to be good before we start teaching them history, science or English.
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Posted 4/17/14
Are you proposing we should ban people from religion?
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 9/5/14
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Posted 4/17/14

FlyinDumpling wrote:



Are you proposing we should ban people from religion?


No. Just that we should place more emphasis on educating the population, in order to prevent them from being gullible and ignorant enough to actually believe in religion in the first place.

Banning things never solves anything. It just shoves the problem under the rug. Where it thrives.
Posted 4/17/14
Is this a case of teaching the controversy.
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 4/17/14
I'm not too sure about creationism being abusive, but it's definitly a rebranding of the timeline the church followed before we discovered that the planet was much older than humanity originally thought, which is my current knowledge of it. But, it definitely should not be taught in science classes, or in history classes as anything other than what it is, which is just what the Christiandom had originally thought was the age of the world. Especially, in schools where not every student is of the Catholic or Christian faith since it is a violation of religious freedom to do so.
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Posted 4/17/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

No. Just that we should place more emphasis on educating the population, in order to prevent them from being gullible and ignorant enough to actually believe in religion in the first place.

Banning things never solves anything. It just shoves the problem under the rug. Where it thrives.
We should educate the population that god is not real.
Posted 4/17/14 , edited 4/17/14
Christian schools do really well, no? I'm thinking of private christian schools
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Posted 4/17/14 , edited 4/17/14
I think it's equivocation to pretend like Christianity and creationism are the same things. Christianity is a religion and creationism is just a small subset of beliefs held by those who disagree with what they feel are the implications of the theory of evolution. As such, I absolutely disagree with the teaching of creationism in schools and disagree with leaving evolution out of the biology classroom. People do need exposure to subjects like science and the kind of thought and process people used to reach their conclusions. There's a time and a place for Christianity and it's not in the science classroom.

That said, there are a lot of people who attach value-laden propositions to science that don't belong there. These people I find often don't understand logic, often use analogies, and never notice the murky, unjustified nature of their own values. That kind of stuff doesn't belong in the science classroom either and it's precisely the stuff that motivates these kinds of comparisons between teaching creationism and child abuse.

Just leave the values at the door and teach the science. How things work, why phenomena happen the way they do, and the process we used to arrive at those conclusions.



Now insofar as evolution is concerned with ensuring the survival of children, I ask how? We all try to live in this world, we all tried to survive before the 19th century, how does me knowing evolution and its theory get me bread to eat when I’m a beggar on the street? Maybe I can take comfort that I am the weak dying off because I was not good enough. It’s the charities whom are seeking to do good or the people that want to help the beggar that are in the forefront of that man’s mind.

There's a lot of stuff like that in school and academia. Stuff that has no immediate application to anything. Like geometry, music, and history. As such, I wouldn't use this as an argument to keep biology out of schools. Hell, schools are basically useless following this logic because the best way to get bread to eat and other useful things is to be working from day one.

Schools exist because we feel we have stuff we want to pass on to a large number of people. It just so happens that in public schools, we don't pass on religion. Probably for the same reason we reject things like imperialism and unjustified taxes. Our tax dollars would otherwise be funneled for church purposes and people have still been trying it throughout American history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Posted 4/17/14
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