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Teaching Christianity is Child Abuse
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Posted 4/18/14
Let's teach children that ultimately it all has no point and we'll all be tiny specks of dust in some giant cosmic wind.
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Posted 4/18/14
yes, one female started it all scientists dont like it but they proved that everyone came from one female, one.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm

and religion is not just about stories, some are, but many are not. you should know by now that every story has a moral or a theme and in the bible the stories represent something that are beyond science, something that will take you awhile to understand. as for the real stuff such as Jesus the sun of god, is fucking real man. there are hundreds of people who saw him and many wrote about him like the desiples did making scriptures(which i recommend you read) and that rules out that everyone was crazy and mentally challenged because hundreds of people cant hallucinate one thing at the same time, it has never been done in "science". and if you think the bible and all the stories and shit were written by one man your wrong, the catholic church organized the teachings of jesus (who told the stories) and the scriptures to make the holy bible (holy library) and they preserved it, and tought it among the people.
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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


crazykl45


crazykl45
Just leave the values at the door and teach the science. How things work, why phenomena happen the way they do, and the process we used to arrive at those conclusions.


You need to stop narrowing in on single elements of things. Single subjects in school. Single aspects of religion. Single aspects of science. You're being intellectually dishonest. We're talking about the entire picture, not just small parts of it.


If you want to throw around claims like intellectual dishonesty and be taken seriously, you need to stop agreeing with over-the-top analogies between teaching creationism and child abuse.



All of this is over the top, and looking at it again it's not even clear where I'm "narrowing in on single elements of things." I made a point a lot of people attach values to science that don't belong there. After going through this thread, I'm getting more and more convinced of that.

It's like there's a class of people who want to use science as arms against religion for some reason. Fine, but I personally don't think you'll get very far. Religion isn't just a set of beliefs people believe in, but the political bodies of people who hold those beliefs. You've seen the kind of ridiculous things people do or say when they feel like their religious views or political beliefs are attacked.




crazykl45


crazykl45
There's a lot of stuff like that in school and academia. Stuff that has no immediate application to anything. Like geometry, music, and history. As such, I wouldn't use this as an argument to keep biology out of schools. Hell, schools are basically useless following this logic because the best way to get bread to eat and other useful things is to be working from day one.


Except that schools are not just to provide competence, but also to expose children to different ideas and various fields of study.


Again, was there even a reason to post this?


Yes. Because it feels to me like you're missing an important part of the picture.

Where is that? The part where just below that I said we have schools because we have stuff we feel is important to pass on or "teach" to others? You're just selectively quoting and thinking I disagree. I don't think schools are just here to provide mere competence, so don't attribute it improperly to me.


All in all, you're extremely uncharitable here in how you interpret other people's points and views. I'm not religious at all, inclined to agree with you, and it's still that way.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/18/14

michaeldeska wrote:

yes, one female started it all scientists dont like it but they proved that everyone came from one female, one.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm


"The study's lead author, Rebecca Cann, called her colleagues' and her choice to use Eve as the name "a playful misnomer," and pointed out that the study wasn't implying that the Mitochondrial Eve wasn't the first -- or only -- woman on Earth during the time she lived [source: Cann]. Instead, this woman is simply the most recent person to whom all people can trace their genealogy."

This is not at all what you made it out to be. This just means that all humans had a recent common ancestor. That doesn't mean she's the one who "started it all".
Watch this short (and imo, very intriguing and interesting) video, which, among other things, explain what the concept described in that article is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhtgINeaJWg




michaeldeska
and religion is not just about stories, some are, but many are not. you should know by now that every story has a moral or a theme and in the bible the stories represent something that are beyond science, something that will take you awhile to understand. as for the real stuff such as Jesus the sun of god, is fucking real man. there are hundreds of people who saw him and many wrote about him like the desiples did making scriptures(which i recommend you read)


Such things happen all the time, even today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing





michaeldeska
and that rules out that everyone was crazy and mentally challenged because hundreds of people cant hallucinate one thing at the same time, it has never been done in "science".


Then I suggest you convert to islam, or some other even more recent religion, because they all have cases of masses of people reporting miracles at the same time. Usually as a result of psychological predisposition, wishful thinking, and conformity pressure.
Hell, we even had a continous one in my country a few years ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joralf_Gjerstad





michaeldeska
and if you think the bible and all the stories and shit were written by one man your wrong, the catholic church organized the teachings of jesus (who told the stories) and the scriptures to make the holy bible (holy library) and they preserved it, and tought it among the people.


The scriptures contained within the bible were written by a vast array of writers. The stories of Jesus for instance were all written between 20 to 80 years after his death. By three different writers, if my memory is not mistaken.
And that of course doesn't include anything from the old testament, which was written by even more different people.
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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14

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32 / M / Atlanta, GA
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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:




That wasn't me you're quoting. Go back and check. It belongs to Iconodule.
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Posted 4/18/14



Then I suggest you convert to islam, or some other even more recent religion, because they all have cases of masses of people reporting miracles at the same time. Usually as a result of psychological predisposition, wishful thinking, and conformity pressure.


you are not my judge, i think you dont look very deep into religion at all, because you seem to absolutely despise because you dont like the way they think or do things, hence you think everyone in a religion is "miss lead" or "wishful thinkers" or you think their ignorant, and i assure you they are many who are not.i look at your side and only see that there is a blind spot right in front of you.



The scriptures contained within the bible were written by a vast array of writers. The stories of Jesus for instance were all written between 20 to 80 years after his death. By three different writers, if my memory is not mistaken.
And that of course doesn't include anything from the old testament, which was written by even more different people.


even then, my point stands.

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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/18/14

crazykl45
That wasn't me you're quoting. Go back and check. It belongs to Iconodule.


HOLY SHIT, you're right!
I've gotten so used to responding based on Avatar rather than name that I mixed the two of you together!
Man, that's embarrassing.

Sorry.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14

michaeldeska
you are not my judge,



I never claimed to be. I just pointed out that by your logic, you should go to the last place where there was a mass of people who reported seeing a divine miracle. Since you seem to not believe that mass hallucination is something that can happen.



michaeldeska
I think you dont look very deep into religion at all, because you seem to absolutely despise because you dont like the way they think or do things.



Only when it impacts other people negatively. Like when they're spreading lies regarding science, or teaching their children that people should not be allowed to be in love with the ones they love, or other such things.



michaeldeska
hence you think everyone in a religion is "miss lead" or "wishful thinkers" or you think their ignorant, and i assure you they are many who are not.i look at your side and only see that there is a blind spot right in front of you.



I did not say that all people who are religious are ignorant. There are plenty of religious people who does not reject science. Who accept evolution, and accept the earth being many millions of years old.
Wishful thinkers, I believe they are, as I have yet to find compelling evidence for God's existence. Which was one of the reasons I stopped believing in God in the first place.
Of course, as long as they don't spread lies regarding science, impact other people negatively, or obstruct your ability of being rational and logical, then there's no harm in a little wishful thinking. I couldn't care less about what they believe so long as they don't contribute to making the world worse.




michaeldeska
even then, my point stands.


What point exactly?
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Posted 4/18/14 , edited 4/18/14
michaeldeska and Syndicaidramon Please take your discussion at http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-847063/is-god-real

If you are going to reply to, make the quote at that thread I linked and finish your discussion there,
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23 / F / Winding Circle
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Posted 4/18/14
Well... I don't think it's child abuse. That's the first I've ever heard of that argument. I also don't believe in the most common argument against raising any child Christian, which is that it is brainwashing.

If raising a kid Christian is brainwashing/abuse, then so is Judaism and Islam, since I believe raising a child in any sort of faith goes similarly.

Besides... if someone is going so far so as to say trying to raise a kid with their own beliefs is abuse but it doesn't involve physical abuse... then isn't raising any kid to follow the beliefs of the parents abuse or brainwashing (depending on the argument)? Since you know, we're molding kids to fit into society and to follow our beliefs and to keep them in the right.

Also, I could see a problem if it had to do with something like drug abuse being taught young or some other thing like that... Religion? As long as the kid isn't hurt, I don't see a problem with it. Some parents can get forceful with their kids (as in typical parent dragging a kid out of a store forceful), but at the same time, they have to bring their kids to services if they're religious, you can't ask religious people to drop their beliefs until the kids are old enough to make their own decisions... that could take at least 10-15 years for one kid and if a family has many...

I don't see how religion is harmful to any child. Many who grow up Christian leave the faith as soon as they can make that choice for themselves. And it is allowed, no matter how some people carry on about it. Many people convert to Christianity because it helps them emotionally and spiritually. Every one is different, and since many people 'break out' eventually, I don't see the problem with 'brainwashing' kids with Christianity.

I think the basics of EVERY religion should be taught in schools at some point so that kids understand what the religion is without misconceptions. And it should be taught by an neutral or unbiased teacher or a teacher who can act as such.
Canute 
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Posted 4/20/14
I think that the best thing to do would simply be to take the government out of education. Every group is accusing the other side of indoctrination; so, why not run schools based on ideology or religion? We already have parochial schools and Classical schools--the former running on the belief that students should be grounded in Catholic theology and practices, while the latter feels that people should be thoroughly grounded in the study of Western Civilization: the Classics, Latin, and Ancient Greek. Both programs are designed to produce a specific kind of individual, whom the people running the school feel would make the best citizen.

But, we also see the same thing in public schools. After all, the mention of God is banished from the classrooms except in the Pledge of Allegiance. And evolution is taught as dogma. (I am not saying that evolution is false here, but that people who question it are laughed at as ignorant. There's no chance for debate, but questioning evolution is rejected out of hand. The same attitude atheists claim religious persons have toward our own dogma.) Atheists, in the name of fairness and religious tolerance, have essentially made public schools a vehicle for teaching Secular Humanism.

So, its seems impossible to avoid a philosophical or religious bias when educating children. In a more homogenous society--say Spain in the 1600's, one could deliver all children a Catholic, Classical, and Thomistic education without anyone batting an eye. In 21st century America, it is impossible to give a uniform education to please everyone. Education has always been a kind of indoctrination, which is why the Left moved to seize colleges in the 60's and 70's. But, to educate people in a Catholic environment is no more brainwashing than educating them in a Secular Humanist environment. Let's just provide everyone vouchers, allow parents to influence what they want their children to be taught in schools, and be done with public education!
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20 / F / B-612
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Posted 4/20/14
I went to a Christian school. It was not abuse and I'm actually thankful I went to one.
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26 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 4/21/14 , edited 4/21/14

Canute
I think that the best thing to do would simply be to take the government out of education.


Sure. Let's not have a national standard for what is going to be taught and not be taught. Let's allow schools to teach children things that are demonstrably wrong as if they were facts. Let's flush the future of our society down the toilet...




Canute
Every group is accusing the other side of indoctrination; so, why not run schools based on ideology or religion?


Because religion is not science. Religious schools is indoctrination. Indoctrination that says that people are scum if they are in love with someone of their own gender.
Teaching science is not indoctrination. No one in their right mind would say that teaching children that the world is round, or that it revolves around the sun is indoctrination.
Just because someone has a personal problem with certain scientific facts because it threatnes their archaic superstition, doesn't make it any less valid science.





Canute
But, we also see the same thing in public schools. After all, the mention of God is banished from the classrooms except in the Pledge of Allegiance. And evolution is taught as dogma. (I am not saying that evolution is false here, but that people who question it are laughed at as ignorant.)


Not the people who merely question it because they don't have enough knowledge of it. But the people who DENY it -- yes.
And with good reason. Because they ARE ignorant. The fact that evolution happens is a scientific fact. It is as undeniable as the fact that the earth is round. And the evidence that life on earth evolved is massive. Especially when compared to the evidence towards mankind having been created 6000 years ago, which is absolutely none. No evidence. Zero and zilch.
Just because more people are ignorant enough to believe in creationism than there are flat-earthers, doesn't make it any less wrong.






Canute
There's no chance for debate, but questioning evolution is rejected out of hand. The same attitude atheists claim religious persons have toward our own dogma.) Atheists, in the name of fairness and religious tolerance, have essentially made public schools a vehicle for teaching Secular Humanism.


There is plenty of chance for debate. Debates happen all the time. Religious people just likes to say that there isn't because they never come out victorious, and because any scientificly literate person knows that they're stupendously wrong, and have no valid evidence to prove their case with. But debates still happen. All the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qKZqPy9T8

As for teaching secular humanism -- I don't really see why that's a bad thing. Teaching kids to treat others well, WITHOUT the bigotry found in organized religion... sounds excellent to me.
There's nothing preventing the children's parents from pushing religion on the children, so why on earth should the schools?






Canute
So, its seems impossible to avoid a philosophical or religious bias when educating children. In a more homogenous society--say Spain in the 1600's, one could deliver all children a Catholic, Classical, and Thomistic education without anyone batting an eye. In 21st century America, it is impossible to give a uniform education to please everyone. Education has always been a kind of indoctrination, which is why the Left moved to seize colleges in the 60's and 70's. But, to educate people in a Catholic environment is no more brainwashing than educating them in a Secular Humanist environment.


Except that when you educate them in a secular humanist environment, you're not biased towards any one religion, and one teaches them to be good people without including the superstition, bigotry and scientific ignorance that comes with religion.
You're gonna have to present some real good arguments if you want to justify that claim of yours...





Canute
Let's just provide everyone vouchers, allow parents to influence what they want their children to be taught in schools, and be done with public education!


No. Not if the result is that children are taught scientific humbug as facts.
We shall not delay societal development and put our future at risk for the sake of preserving some people's ignorant, dumbfounded delusions. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

If parents wants their kids to believe in God, then they can have at it with that stuff at home. It does NOT belong in school any more than it belongs in politics. Which is absolutely none.
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Posted 4/21/14
I don't think we should teach Creationism to our kids in public schools. To say it's "child abuse" is kind of extreme. If the parents want them to be raised Christian or by another religion, then they should do so in their homes. I honestly am undecided about my beliefs. I went to a Christian school and kind of hated it, quite honestly. I strive to be nice to people and to have good morals. But it was pretty stupid to be told that you would essentially be going to hell if you don't accept Christ as your savior, no matter how good a person you are. I was also taught that being gay was a sin, and I even believed that being gay was wrong for years because they hammered that into me. I believe I was somewhat brainwashed. If they teach you their morals and you don't learn them from anywhere else (your home/parents) then I feel like more often than not, those will stick.

I guess I kind of digressed. I don't believe creationism or any other *beliefs* should be taught in public schools. Give the facts to the students, and leave matters of faith and beliefs to the parents.
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