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Post Reply Madoka Magica and why I don't like it as much as everyone else.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

iblessall wrote:


This, I think, is a very valid criticism of the show. I don't think the girls of Madoka are as reactionary as you say they are (after, all action is reaction to something), and Sayaka and Homura both are active characters, making decisions and suffering the consequences. Madoka, on the other hand, is actually a pretty weak character from my viewpoint.

While I don't think I would go as far as saying they are all archetypes, I also don't think they are all particularly brilliant characters. Well-written characters, perhaps, but not brilliant characters on their own. The plotting is so strong in Madoka that it kind of takes over all elements of the show, and that includes the characters.


This reminds me of something I keep forgetting to bring up. Gen Urobuchi's work always reminds me of some of Shakespearean stuff.

Specifically the Archetypes.

Archetypal characters are EVERYWHERE in the Stories of Shakespeare. Romeo and Juliet are the classic teenage couple, Macbeth the ambitious hero turned villain, those back stabbing Cassiuses and Brutus...es...

But that only applies to the characters in the fore front. The girls of Madoka are no less Archetyple and no more Human/Characters than the Protagonists of Shakespeare.

Shakespeare put a lamp shade upon his own works however. Characters like Mercutio, whom I've got a huge fondness for, acted as actual characters. They would mock or lament the archetypal destines of the Protagonists, and laugh it off. Knowning himself to be a set stereotype in a story, Mercutio simply....acted like some dude. He was a character unlike Romeo, much to the delight of the audience. Romeo's fate was sealed, while Mercutio openly chose his, admittedly silly, demise.

Not all of Shakespeare's works involve Archetypes. He has a lot of more...character driven stories, some of his more popular ones at that. I believe King Lear(which I have not read) is a more Character based story over an Archetypal one.

It's just a difference in storytelling. Themes and messages that Madoka try to convey are easier to do with Archetypes, but stronger told by Characters.....but then you could totally miss the message with all that subtly and human-like second guessing. The fact that a Character is so Complex undermines the whole story at times.

SO.........um. I like Madoka Magica. But it's soooooo obvious what they're doing to me that I felt detached. Sayaka was born to fail, Sakura was born to contrast, Madoka was born to become a Magical Girl, Minami born to die, and Houmura born to grieve and fail.
Nothing was up to them, they never stood a chance at changing the events. That's what Miss. Time Traveler learned isn't it?
I never felt the weight of Sayaka's problems or Madoka's hesitations because of that.

And they're Brilliant Archetypes to me. Done well with enough sense to convey who they are, and to garner fan's just like they have.

Think My little Pony; Friendship is Magic without the Character, just the cut-out stereotypes. That's how the girls feel to me.
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Posted 4/22/14

Felstalker wrote:
SO.........um. I like Madoka Magica. But it's soooooo obvious what they're doing to me that I felt detached. Sayaka was born to fail, Sakura was born to contrast, Madoka was born to become a Magical Girl, Minami born to die, and Houmura born to grieve and fail.
Nothing was up to them, they never stood a chance at changing the events. That's what Miss. Time Traveler learned isn't it?
I never felt the weight of Sayaka's problems or Madoka's hesitations because of that.


If that was what had actually happened, I'd probably agree with you. But this is why the ending is so important. Madoka decides the whole damn story was contrived and inevitable, their fates and actions and even personalities planned out to create a tragic story--metafictionally for the audience, and in-story because Kyubey needs his despair fix--so she throws it all out the window to let everyone do what they really wanted to do.

Sayaka still dies, but she saves Kyousuke and doesn't become a force of evil. Mami doesn't die, and has friends again. Kyouko still loses Sayaka, but she doesn't have to sacrifice herself, and has grown out of being a lone-wolf psychopath. Homura failed in her original mission, but enabled Madoka to save everyone, so it wasn't pointless.

Even before this happens, the characters are somewhat aware of the stupid fates they've been assigned, and are fighting against them. Heck, that's pretty much all they ever do! Many of these attempts failed. Sayaka thought she'd die because she wasn't good enough but she became a witch by trying too hard, Homura thought she could eventually save Madoka somehow but she was just making things worse, and so on. In the end, though, they do not fail. Each of them ends up with a more hopeful story, with growth and success and failure, instead of a cruel tragedy of being utterly destroyed by their minor character flaws.

They start out as generic archetypes, and the story wants to manipulate and exploit their archetypes to crank out a sad story, but they refuse to accept it. That's why the fans (some of the fans...?) appreciate them as characters.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14
I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

MartianMage wrote:

I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...


Sheesh. You're the second person to come in and publicly announce how they aren't going to answer the question. Why bother wasting your time, then? I didn't hold you at gunpoint and force you to come to this thread. If you feel differently to the posters criticising Madoka then that's fine, but at least answer the question. You wouldn't walk up to some people having a conversation with the intention of joining in only to say 'Yeah, um, what you're talking about, I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't see eye to eye with you sooo... Yeah, bye' so why do it here? It's one of the most irritating displays of bad manners, if you ask me.
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Posted 4/22/14
Blast of Tempest had a similar theme to Madoka as the protagonist wanted a story that "didn't end in tragedy". I liked the original Madoka series but just ignored the second as it did not sound like an interesting reimagining. I'm a little more curious about what Madoka is doing (other than saving everyone before they become witches), if Kyubey's race ever gets what's coming to them or what the ones with emotion are like or what beings Madoka meets. Most of all, does Madoka ever change her incorporeal state? Seems like there was a possibility.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:

I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...


Sheesh. You're the second person to come in and publicly announce how they aren't going to answer the question. Why bother wasting your time, then? I didn't hold you at gunpoint and force you to come to this thread. If you feel differently to the posters criticising Madoka then that's fine, but at least answer the question. You wouldn't walk up to some people having a conversation with the intention of joining in only to say 'Yeah, um, what you're talking about, I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't see eye to eye with you sooo... Yeah, bye' so why do it here? It's one of the most irritating displays of bad manners, if you ask me.


I don't see how it's bad manners to tell you upfront that I disagree with all the criticisms posted here so far. Now no one has said anything about Madoka Magica's plot here but for example there are 2 person talking and 1 person thinks that Madoka Magica's plot is amazing and the other thinks Madoka Magica's plot is stupid do you think any amount of arguing will let them see each other eye to eye? I certainly don't so I'm telling you now that I am not going to argue with you guys I'm just declaring that I disagree with your criticisms. Your second point isn't even a valid criticism.

Also...

"I think my problem is less about how many people find it good, and more about how they find it utterly phenomenal, which I find is going a bit too far."

It's called opinions. Personally I find the fact that you started this thread because of 1 PMMM fan is kind of... ummm... going a bit too far. Just because 1 PMMM fan compared to Wixoss you're raging now?

I've seen people compare PMMM to animes that IMO are leagues below PMMM and you don't see me raging about it.

Seriously the hostility around this boards is astounding.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:

I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...


Sheesh. You're the second person to come in and publicly announce how they aren't going to answer the question. Why bother wasting your time, then? I didn't hold you at gunpoint and force you to come to this thread. If you feel differently to the posters criticising Madoka then that's fine, but at least answer the question. You wouldn't walk up to some people having a conversation with the intention of joining in only to say 'Yeah, um, what you're talking about, I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't see eye to eye with you sooo... Yeah, bye' so why do it here? It's one of the most irritating displays of bad manners, if you ask me.


I don't see how it's bad manners to tell you upfront that I disagree with all the criticisms posted here so far. Now no one has said anything about Madoka Magica's plot here but for example there are 2 person talking and 1 person thinks that Madoka Magica's plot is amazing and the other thinks Madoka Magica's plot is stupid do you think any amount of arguing will let them see each other eye to eye? I certainly don't so I'm telling you now that I am not going to argue with you guys I'm just declaring that I disagree with your criticisms. Your second point isn't even a valid criticism. Just because 1 PMMM fan compared to Wixoss you're raging now?

Seriously the hostility around this boards is astounding.


The point of this forum topic wasn't to make those with differing views see eye to eye, it was to give me a few ideas as to why people like Madoka outside of the one reason I so frequently hear. Also that one PMMM fan making that comparison wasn't the only thing causing me to rage (not that I am actually 'raging'), it just reminded me of a thought I've had a lot, that thought being 'why do fans like it outside of saying 'it's deep'?' Look. the point of a forum is to discuss differing views on a certain subject. You weren't expressing any views, you were stating that you refuse to answer my question and you came in with your mind set on doing exactly that. That strikes me as rude.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14
So much nostalgic that I read 3 years ago when this anime just aired.

I like madoka magica because I like the mahou shoujo genre. Mostly I watched it due to the interest of the genre.

I don't really want to get so deep in philosophical about this anime. But this is pretty well-written anime that explore many ideas to people.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:

I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...


Sheesh. You're the second person to come in and publicly announce how they aren't going to answer the question. Why bother wasting your time, then? I didn't hold you at gunpoint and force you to come to this thread. If you feel differently to the posters criticising Madoka then that's fine, but at least answer the question. You wouldn't walk up to some people having a conversation with the intention of joining in only to say 'Yeah, um, what you're talking about, I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't see eye to eye with you sooo... Yeah, bye' so why do it here? It's one of the most irritating displays of bad manners, if you ask me.


I don't see how it's bad manners to tell you upfront that I disagree with all the criticisms posted here so far. Now no one has said anything about Madoka Magica's plot here but for example there are 2 person talking and 1 person thinks that Madoka Magica's plot is amazing and the other thinks Madoka Magica's plot is stupid do you think any amount of arguing will let them see each other eye to eye? I certainly don't so I'm telling you now that I am not going to argue with you guys I'm just declaring that I disagree with your criticisms. Your second point isn't even a valid criticism. Just because 1 PMMM fan compared to Wixoss you're raging now?

Seriously the hostility around this boards is astounding.


You weren't expressing any views, you were stating that you refuse to answer my question and you came in with your mind set on doing exactly that. That strikes me as rude.


I expressed that I disagree with your criticisms. Also if you read your opening post there was no question to begin with.

Also:

Also, if the disagreeing opinion of a stranger bothers you, save yourself some anger and turn away.


Ironic really...
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Posted 4/22/14

MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:

I personally avoid these threads because to be honest... all the criticisms I've read so far... are criticisms I have difficulty understanding. These criticisms are the same criticisms I've read years ago(tbh it actually kind of feels like it's getting parroted) and I'm really struggling to understand where these are coming from.

I just feel that I will never see people who says these criticisms eye to eye regarding this matter because what they don't see in the series... I see them and I'm sure a lot of other people also do.

And now I'm back to lurking...


Sheesh. You're the second person to come in and publicly announce how they aren't going to answer the question. Why bother wasting your time, then? I didn't hold you at gunpoint and force you to come to this thread. If you feel differently to the posters criticising Madoka then that's fine, but at least answer the question. You wouldn't walk up to some people having a conversation with the intention of joining in only to say 'Yeah, um, what you're talking about, I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't see eye to eye with you sooo... Yeah, bye' so why do it here? It's one of the most irritating displays of bad manners, if you ask me.


I don't see how it's bad manners to tell you upfront that I disagree with all the criticisms posted here so far. Now no one has said anything about Madoka Magica's plot here but for example there are 2 person talking and 1 person thinks that Madoka Magica's plot is amazing and the other thinks Madoka Magica's plot is stupid do you think any amount of arguing will let them see each other eye to eye? I certainly don't so I'm telling you now that I am not going to argue with you guys I'm just declaring that I disagree with your criticisms. Your second point isn't even a valid criticism. Just because 1 PMMM fan compared to Wixoss you're raging now?

Seriously the hostility around this boards is astounding.


You weren't expressing any views, you were stating that you refuse to answer my question and you came in with your mind set on doing exactly that. That strikes me as rude.


I expressed that I disagree with your criticisms. Also if you read your opening post there was no question to begin with.

Also:

Also, if the disagreeing opinion of a stranger bothers you, save yourself some anger and turn away.


Ironic really...


Granted I didn't specifically state what I was looking for in question form, but 95% of the people on here are smart enough to pick up on what I was looking for. It sounds like you're being difficult for the sake of being difficult. You also aren't offering a differing opinion. The point is to tell me why you like it, since I don't. Telling me you don't agree with my criticisms is different to telling me why you like the show and therefore not giving the sort of answer I was looking for. I'm not mad at you because I disagree with your points about why you like the show, I'm mad that you're not even giving answers as to why you like it, and are arguing about something completely different.
'I really like Madoka because...' and
'I don't get the criticisms' are two different things. You can link the two together in an answer, but the latter without the former isn't giving the answer I was looking for.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:
Granted I didn't specifically state what I was looking for in question form, but 95% of the people on here are smart enough to pick up on what I was looking for. It sounds like you're being difficult for the sake of being difficult. You also aren't offering a differing opinion. The point is to tell me why you like it, since I don't. Telling me you don't agree with my criticisms is different to telling me why you like the show and therefore not giving the sort of answer I was looking for. I'm not mad at you because I disagree with your points about why you like the show, I'm mad that you're not even giving answers as to why you like it, and are arguing about something completely different.
'I really like Madoka because...' and
'I don't get the criticisms' are two different things. You can link the two together in an answer, but the latter without the former isn't giving the answer I was looking for.

I'm being difficult? I'm telling you upfront that I disagree with your criticisms. Frankly I think I'm the most straightforward person here so far. Disagreeing with your criticisms is already an opinion. If 1 person says x game is the best game at the moment and another person disagrees is it so hard to understand what the other person's opinion would be? Granted there would be no specifics it's still not very difficult to grasp no?

I only came here to see if there's any new criticism that I would find here and I only saw criticisms that I've seen years ago. Like I said I have no intention in arguing so I simply said I disagree with your criticisms.

I don't see why you're making such a fuss over it... you could have just... you know took it that there's 1 person in this forums who completely disagrees with you and will never see you eye to eye when it comes to PMMM.

and again:


Also, if the disagreeing opinion of a stranger bothers you, save yourself some anger and turn away.


Ironic really.
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Posted 4/22/14

MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:
Granted I didn't specifically state what I was looking for in question form, but 95% of the people on here are smart enough to pick up on what I was looking for. It sounds like you're being difficult for the sake of being difficult. You also aren't offering a differing opinion. The point is to tell me why you like it, since I don't. Telling me you don't agree with my criticisms is different to telling me why you like the show and therefore not giving the sort of answer I was looking for. I'm not mad at you because I disagree with your points about why you like the show, I'm mad that you're not even giving answers as to why you like it, and are arguing about something completely different.
'I really like Madoka because...' and
'I don't get the criticisms' are two different things. You can link the two together in an answer, but the latter without the former isn't giving the answer I was looking for.

I'm being difficult? I'm telling you upfront that I disagree with your criticisms. Frankly I think I'm the most straightforward person here so far. Disagreeing with your criticisms is already an opinion. If 1 person says x game is the best game at the moment and another person disagrees is it so hard to understand what the other person's opinion would be? Granted there would be no specifics it's still not very difficult to grasp no?

I only came here to see if there's any new criticism that I would find here and I only saw criticisms that I've seen years ago. Like I said I have no intention in arguing so I simply said I disagree with your criticisms.

I don't see why you're making such a fuss over it... you could have just... you know took it that there's 1 person in this forums who completely disagrees with you and will never see you eye to eye when it comes to PMMM.

and again:


Also, if the disagreeing opinion of a stranger bothers you, save yourself some anger and turn away.


Ironic really.


I was just looking less for something along the lines of saying you flat out disagree with the opinions of those who say they don't like Madoka, and more along the lines of saying 'Why' you disagree with said opinions. You came across in what, to me, seemed like a really passive-aggressive manner, and your cocky repetition of 'ironic really', re-inforces why I believe that. If that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's what it seemed like. Also, if I come across as someone on a short-fuse I apologise but it's currently 3:20am as I check the time right now, and I only got about 3 hours of sleep last night. You weren't to know that but there you go. You haven't caught me in the best of moods.
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Posted 4/22/14 , edited 4/22/14

Felstalker wrote:

SO.........um. I like Madoka Magica. But it's soooooo obvious what they're doing to me that I felt detached. Sayaka was born to fail, Sakura was born to contrast, Madoka was born to become a Magical Girl, Minami born to die, and Houmura born to grieve and fail.
Nothing was up to them, they never stood a chance at changing the events. That's what Miss. Time Traveler learned isn't it?
I never felt the weight of Sayaka's problems or Madoka's hesitations because of that.

Are you looking for the word archetype, or inevitability? Because a character can be given an inevitable fate, or the feeling of inevitable doom. This fits really well here I think, since one of the fundamental issues with the series is isolation. Sayaka isolates herself, Homura isolates herself, Madoka isolates herself, Sakura isolates herself, Mami isolates herself. All of them try to deal with their problems alone and lock themselves into their respective paths.

Wouldn't a Mercurio character wreck that isolation? Especially given the intentionally claustrophobic cast.

The problem then being that the story doesn't invite you to invest in the characters since you see no hope for them?


BLACKOUTMK2 wrote:

Also, if I come across as someone on a short-fuse I apologise but it's currently 3:20am as I check the time right now, and I only got about 3 hours of sleep last night. You weren't to know that but there you go. You haven't caught me in the best of moods.

For the record this is your responsibility to handle, not the internet's.

Although we've all failed on that score now and again.
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BLACKOUTMK2I was just looking less for something along the lines of saying you flat out disagree with the opinions of those who say they don't like Madoka, and more along the lines of saying 'Why' you disagree with said opinions. You came across in what, to me, seemed like a really passive-aggressive manner, and your cocky repetition of 'ironic really', re-inforces why I believe that. If that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's what it seemed like. Also, if I come across as someone on a short-fuse I apologise but it's currently 3:20am as I check the time right now, and I only got about 3 hours of sleep last night. You weren't to know that but there you go. You haven't caught me in the best of moods.


Well I'm certainly not looking for a discussion so you'll have to forgive me if you're somehow expecting something lengthy on my part why I disagree. And I'm only repeating that quotation just to remind you to cool it(especially when it came from you from the start) because I'm certainly not looking for any confrontation.

TBH I'd rather be doing something else than to argue over the internet really. Loads of games to finish and work doesn't make it easier.
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Posted 4/22/14

MartianMage wrote:


BLACKOUTMK2I was just looking less for something along the lines of saying you flat out disagree with the opinions of those who say they don't like Madoka, and more along the lines of saying 'Why' you disagree with said opinions. You came across in what, to me, seemed like a really passive-aggressive manner, and your cocky repetition of 'ironic really', re-inforces why I believe that. If that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's what it seemed like. Also, if I come across as someone on a short-fuse I apologise but it's currently 3:20am as I check the time right now, and I only got about 3 hours of sleep last night. You weren't to know that but there you go. You haven't caught me in the best of moods.


Well I'm certainly not looking for a discussion so you'll have to forgive me if you're somehow expecting something lengthy on my part why I disagree. And I'm only repeating that quotation just to remind you to cool it(especially when it came from you from the start) because I'm certainly not looking for any confrontation.

TBH I'd rather be doing something else than to argue over the internet really. Loads of games to finish and work doesn't make it easier.


And that's fair enough, but if you really wanted to avoid any manner of confrontation you shouldn't have posted since the second you make a post, unless there are rules stating otherwise, your opinions are completely open to whatever replies the public throws at you. I'm not saying you're in the wrong for sticking by your beliefs through this whole 'debate' but you could have just said 'it's not worth it' and gone to your games. I'll be honest; I'm shit at playing the big man and backing down, but you, too, could have backed down at any time if you really wanted to. It's not like I know you and I'm going to hunt you down and hurl unmentionable items at your windows for cutting off the discussion because I know who you are, since I don't lol. Like I said earlier, I didn't hold you at gunpoint and say 'Oi, you, no playing games, you're having an argument with me and that's final'. You're here of your own free will.
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