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Is God real?
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Posted 4/24/14

Ephermera wrote:


Therefore, at the end of the day, it's all his fault. EVERYTHING is God's fault.


*Ahem*. Pardon for the intrusion on this heated discussion, but do you believe in God but blame everyone on him? You can't blame something you don't believe exists.

In answer to your question/rant, (my two cents anyway) according to the Bible (yeah, yeah go ahead and bash it I've heard it all before) the world WAS perfect. But, because he wanted praise/admiration for making such a great world, he created people. Being told, "You're awesome", by a bunch of robots isn't satisfying. So, he gave us free will. What did the first humans do with that free will? They f***** up. If some bad existed in a perfect world, the world could no longer be perfect. Thus Tsunamis/Disease/Poisons and shit.

This is all I'm going to add because I don't like discussions on religion, strongly grounded ideals such as those almost are never discussed peacefully.


Excuse me but no. You do NOT get to claim that humans are responsible for tsunami's without flatly denying objective reality.

You may believe in the bible all you like, but why should that be an excuse for you blatantly ignoring basic fact? Tsunami's are caused by massive earthquakes underground, when plate tectonics slip against each other. This shifts a giant wall of water where suddenly one side of a water body is a bit higher than the other, causing a wave of a solid wall of water to propagate.

Earthquakes are caused by plate tectonics building up pressure against each other. The places they do so are fault lines, the earth's crust is broken into many pieces. This has existed for long, LONG before humans ever existed.

Now, I realize you probably do understand the potential epistemological issues you might have to deal with knowing that humans cannot be responsible for things like earthquakes, and that if god is responsible for them, you have quite an epistemological crisis.

... I just don't believe someone who isn't willing to even attempt to examine their own epistemology has much right being treated with respect when they outright deny objective reality.

Admitting "I don't know why god would want the planet to randomly generate massive disasters from natural phenomenon", is at least a hell of a lot more honest than somehow implying humans are in *ANY* way responsible for things like the geologic formation of the earth.

Your desire to believe does not warrant placating to reality denial.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

michaeldeska

what would you be if you could not think and make your own decisions?you would not be considered a life form but more of a robot. god gave you free will, the ability to think on your own and solve problems he gave you life. god has already given use a chance against evil, he has given use a way to be cleansed of sin. yet because god gave use free will then their will be people who choose not to believe in him, there will be people who will do evil things on their own free will because it makes them feel good or they believe they are the only one who is right about what he is doing, justifying his actions into being something weak and pathetic and turning it into a fantasy of his. so i ask again, if god created us without free will what would we be?


No, I mean he could've prevented evil from ever existing. Evil exists because Adam ate the forbidden fruit. God could've prevented that from happening. And he could've done it without interfering with free will, in numerous ways.





Ephermera wrote:


Therefore, at the end of the day, it's all his fault. EVERYTHING is God's fault.


*Ahem*. Pardon for the intrusion on this heated discussion, but do you believe in God but blame everyone on him? You can't blame something you don't believe exists.

In answer to your question/rant, (my two cents anyway) according to the Bible (yeah, yeah go ahead and bash it I've heard it all before) the world WAS perfect. But, because he wanted praise/admiration for making such a great world, he created people. Being told, "You're awesome", by a bunch of robots isn't satisfying. So, he gave us free will. What did the first humans do with that free will? They f***** up. If some bad existed in a perfect world, the world could no longer be perfect. Thus Tsunamis/Disease/Poisons and shit.

This is all I'm going to add because I don't like discussions on religion, strongly grounded ideals such as those almost are never discussed peacefully.


Of course. I don't believe in God, and thus, I don't believe that he's ACTUALLY at fault for anything.
I'm just arguing on the premises of the religious people. I'm pointing out the gaps in logic of their beliefs.

As for the part about free will -- that is completely irrelevant. Because Adam and Eve were perfect. They were perfectly good.
God is the one who introduced sin to the world. Thus, he is the one to blame.
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Posted 4/24/14


you bare missing the point, god ALLOWED evil so that we may expirence freedom. take a jail for instence, because you commited a crime you are placed in a cell with no freedom what so ever, you can do neither good nor evil. so without evil there will be no good, without good there will be no evil, the point of reliogon is to find that ballance between them, like the yin and yang. Adam and eve commited the first sin but they did not start evil at all but only fell for it. the snake was evil its self not eve or adam, BUT because they had free will they chose to disobey. we had free will from the start thus evil was already there.
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Posted 4/24/14

michaeldeska
you bare missing the point, god ALLOWED evil so that we may expirence freedom.
take a jail for instence, because you commited a crime you are placed in a cell with no freedom what so ever, you can do neither good nor evil. so without evil there will be no good, without good there will be no evil, the point of reliogon is to find that ballance between them, like the yin and yang. Adam and eve commited the first sin but they did not start evil at all but only fell for it. the snake was evil its self not eve or adam, BUT because they had free will they chose to disobey. we had free will from the start thus evil was already there.


So you're saying that without evil, we would just be mindless robots?

And no, because God created Adam and Eve as perfect beings. As being perfectly good. Thus, they were not evil. And God, at least according to what I was taught as a christian, was that God intended for Adam and Eve to live as perfect beings, and populate the earth with more perfect beings. That everything was going to be perfect. Is that not the case?

And if you say that good can not exist without evil, then that means you discard the idea of inherent, objective morality. Thus opening God's laws up for scrutiny and criticism.
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Posted 4/24/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


michaeldeska
you bare missing the point, god ALLOWED evil so that we may expirence freedom.
take a jail for instence, because you commited a crime you are placed in a cell with no freedom what so ever, you can do neither good nor evil. so without evil there will be no good, without good there will be no evil, the point of reliogon is to find that ballance between them, like the yin and yang. Adam and eve commited the first sin but they did not start evil at all but only fell for it. the snake was evil its self not eve or adam, BUT because they had free will they chose to disobey. we had free will from the start thus evil was already there.


So you're saying that without evil, we would just be mindless robots?

And no, because God created Adam and Eve as perfect beings. As being perfectly good. Thus, they were not evil. And God, at least according to what I was taught as a christian, was that God intended for Adam and Eve to live as perfect beings, and populate the earth with more perfect beings. That everything was going to be perfect. Is that not the case?

And if you say that good can not exist without evil, then that means you discard the idea of inherent, objective morality. Thus opening God's laws up for scrutiny and criticism.


no, i said without free will we would be robots, and evil is just as natural as good. yes the goal for adam and eve was to be a perfect existance but because they have free will they chose to go against gods word thus not creating evil itself, because if there were not evil before then they would not make that choice in the first place. it was a snake representing evil whom tempted them into eating the apple.

abd i am not scrutinizing or going against morality,that is far from the truth. what would define evil if there was no good? what would define good without evil? you see our morals are based off both of them.
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Posted 4/24/14
No, plain and simple..... I feel God is just a coping mechanism used by those who don't want to believe the harsh reality
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21 / M / UK
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Posted 4/24/14
God has about the same chance as Gods like Thor and Shiva existing which imo is a slim chance but you never know that's what makes it interesting.
Posted 4/24/14 , edited 12/10/14
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Posted 4/24/14

michaeldeska
no, i said without free will we would be robots, and evil is just as natural as good.
yes the goal for adam and eve was to be a perfect existance but because they have free will they chose to go against gods word thus not creating evil itself, because if there were not evil before then they would not make that choice in the first place. it was a snake representing evil whom tempted them into eating the apple.

abd i am not scrutinizing or going against morality,that is far from the truth. what would define evil if there was no good? what would define good without evil? you see our morals are based off both of them.


But the bible says that in the garden of Eden, there was no evil. Evil came when the talking snake seduced Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.
That's God's fault. God could've just not made the tree of knowledge, or not created Satan, and none of that would've ever happened.

If you accept that God intended for Adam and Eve to live as perfect beings in a perfect world, with no evil, and you accept that what God prefers is what's good, then logic dictates that the order of things in the garden of Eden would be good. Even if there was no evil there to seperate the two from each other, those conditions would still be what we consider "good". Just because there wouldn't be a distinction between the two concepts via words, doesn't mean the conditions and behavior that would be described as "good" couldn't exist.
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Posted 4/24/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:


michaeldeska
no, i said without free will we would be robots, and evil is just as natural as good.
yes the goal for adam and eve was to be a perfect existance but because they have free will they chose to go against gods word thus not creating evil itself, because if there were not evil before then they would not make that choice in the first place. it was a snake representing evil whom tempted them into eating the apple.

abd i am not scrutinizing or going against morality,that is far from the truth. what would define evil if there was no good? what would define good without evil? you see our morals are based off both of them.


But the bible says that in the garden of Eden, there was no evil. Evil came when the talking snake seduced Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.
That's God's fault. God could've just not made the tree of knowledge, or not created Satan, and none of that would've ever happened.

If you accept that God intended for Adam and Eve to live as perfect beings in a perfect world, with no evil, and you accept that what God prefers is what's good, then logic dictates that the order of things in the garden of Eden would be good. Even if there was no evil there to seperate the two from each other, those conditions would still be what we consider "good". Just because there wouldn't be a distinction between the two concepts via words, doesn't mean the conditions and behavior that would be described as "good" couldn't exist.


indeed, you are now talking of a religious mystery (what i like to call it as do many theologists i have studied) evil indeed could have never existed if god never made it. but your are missing the big picture . god creates the universe, he creates life, he creates Adam then eve, he gave them free will, he made a tree he forbade them to eat from yet they did so because the snake tempted them. now the snake is not to be taken literally as a snake, but something within the mind. the snakes poisonous words were that of their own mind. you might be thinking "that doesn't make any sense" but it does. if the reality god created was perfect from the start and only good then Eve would not have made the choice of biting the apple. even if a snake(or any other type of evil) was tempting her she would have prevailed over them. this is why i said god ALLOWED evil, its so we can experience freedom, life. if we lived in a reality where evil did not exist, then good cannot exist at all because evil defines good. if we lived without evil then we have never seen what good is making something good unimaginable, so we would be living in a simply bland world, a world with no color , with no light, with no happiness. evil defines all those things, we see color because we see dark shades outlining them, we see light dispersing darkness, we are happy when we are not suffering.
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Posted 4/24/14

Shin-Nrl wrote:

I stoped believing...
I used to realy believe in him and pray.but everytime I need god and pray seems like there is no power at all.....like life is just moving according to people actions and circumstances,time after time after.I got frustrated and its like I'm seeing other people do shit things in life while being non-religion and getting the happy life they want and other religion people dream of but can't get. and last time some big shit happened to me proved all of this right so I completely lost all faith in god.so excuse me if I'm if I 'm going to belive in something.I need to see some improvement to my life and not just sitting still watching other people get what they want without giving a damn about religion


i understand, but god cannot physically help you, yes i know he is the most powerful spirit in the universe. but he has already given you the tools to be who you are, to be an intelligent being. he gave you life, free will, freedom. but first i should say that he made us of nothing and it is his will that keeps existence existing, keeps you living. you can still be happy following him, as matter of fact that is what his existence is all about, he created us so that we may experience life with him, to be free.

that being said sir, i believe you should use the grey matter in between your ears and live, solve your problems with the gifts and tools god gave you, use all your resources. be hopeful.
Posted 4/24/14 , edited 12/10/14
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

michaeldeska
but your are missing the big picture . god creates the universe, he creates life, he creates Adam then eve, he gave them free will, he made a tree he forbade them to eat from yet they did so because the snake tempted them. now the snake is not to be taken literally as a snake, but something within the mind. the snakes poisonous words were that of their own mind. you might be thinking "that doesn't make any sense" but it does.
if the reality god created was perfect from the start and only good then Eve would not have made the choice of biting the apple. even if a snake(or any other type of evil) was tempting her she would have prevailed over them. this is why i said god ALLOWED evil, its so we can experience freedom, life.


That makes NO sense. That contradicts his entire plan of having Adam and Eve live in a perfect world.
And if he didn't create the world perfect and only good, then that means God is STILL the one at fault, because he COULD have made the world perfect. But didn't.




michaeldeska
if we lived in a reality where evil did not exist, then good cannot exist at all because evil defines good. if we lived without evil then we have never seen what good is making something good unimaginable, so we would be living in a simply bland world, a world with no color , with no light, with no happiness. evil defines all those things, we see color because we see dark shades outlining them, we see light dispersing darkness, we are happy when we are not suffering.


So what you're saying is basicly that if no one in the entire world acted badly towards other people, no one could act nicely towards other people either, because the evil counter-possibility would no longer exist? Is that what you're saying?
That if people never had to suffer again, they wouldn't feel happiness either? Really?

If so, then you are, once again, discarding the concept of inherent morality. A concept that is central for any christian that attempts defending God.
You are ALSO saying that the world God made and intended for humans would be bland and boring -- which doesn't exactly speak well for your god.
AND you're saying that for our world to be good, evil HAD to be there, which indicates that God knew that, which indicates that he partook in introducing it. Which he did either way, because he created the devil.

Speaking of the devil -- if there was no snake tricking Eve, then where does the devil fit in.
And also, where do you get the idea that the snake wasn't a literal snake, but just something in Eve's head?
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Posted 4/24/14


you must understand that we all have free will, people do things on their own accord for their reasons evil or good, for you or for themselves. yes the world is in chaos right now, people are fighting and people are dieing. people are ignoring the world because they fear the future. but you are given something that can change your life how ever you choose, free will. if you choose not to believe in god because you think he hasnt helped you enough then you have every right to do so. if you choose to believe in him and stand for what you believe in then you have every right to do so, choose anything and its yours Power , freedom , sin, happiness. you have any of it, but you chose not to believe and you will continue to be as miserable as you are now for the rest of your life, because you will always be blaming him for everything you cant do on your own, do something about it now i insist, but you have the right to ignore me.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

michaeldeska
you must understand that we all have free will, people do things on their own accord for their reasons evil or good, for you or for themselves. yes the world is in chaos right now, people are fighting and people are dieing. people are ignoring the world because they fear the future. but you are given something that can change your life how ever you choose, free will. if you choose not to believe in god because you think he hasnt helped you enough then you have every right to do so. if you choose to believe in him and stand for what you believe in then you have every right to do so, choose anything and its yours Power , freedom , sin, happiness. you have any of it, but you chose not to believe and you will continue to be as miserable as you are now for the rest of your life, because you will always be blaming him for everything you cant do on your own, do something about it now i insist, but you have the right to ignore me.


I am absolutely speechless...
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