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Post Reply What do you think of the organic/natural/holistic life style?
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Posted 4/24/14
Many people think organic food is just a gimmick to get people to pay more for the same quality. Others swear by it, that it has changed their lives. What are your views and why?

Some extra questions....
Do you live an organic and natural lifestyle?
Do you know people who do?
How do you make it affordable?
If it was more affordable, would you do it?

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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14
You pay more because the crop sizes are exponentially smaller. Therefore price-per-unit must go up because available quantity is low. Having a small crop is only way for farmers to control pests without all the chemicals. It's simply impossible, at least at the moment, to grow organically on a large scale.....but if anyone has any ideas, feel free to correct me.

I've recently gone organic, so I can't say definitively if I'm reaping the benefits from it. I feel no better or worse, but I guess it can't hurt to avoid having bugspray residue flowing through my veins.

We'll see.
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Posted 4/24/14
haha oh gosh, I've used so much bugspray in my life.

What made you decide to do the switch?
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Posted 4/24/14

dirty_soap_dish wrote:

You pay more because the crop sizes are exponentially smaller. Therefore price-per-unit must go up because available quantity is low. Having a small crop is only way for farmers to control pests without all the chemicals. It's simply impossible, at least at the moment, to grow organically on a large scale.....but if anyone has any ideas, feel free to correct me.

I've recently gone organic, so I can't say definitively if I'm reaping the benefits from it. I feel no better or worse, but I guess it can't hurt to avoid having bugspray residue flowing through my veins.

We'll see.


Its not just bug spray as that would be insectides, there are also pesticides and herbicides but to truly reap the benefits of organic, need to fix water supply, cut out take aways and create a structured diet with a routine to help restore the metabolism to optimal levels, but a start in organic is the first step, there are many factors to do but I think people often feel going to organic on its own and they will feel better, its just a big piece of a huge puzzle, there are other pieces to put with it to reap the benefits.

Now for large scale only way is to have more people working on it
Posted 4/24/14
yea baby i like em raw. oooh baby i like it raaaaww
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Posted 4/24/14

Aimpie wrote:

haha oh gosh, I've used so much bugspray in my life.

What made you decide to do the switch?



Why? Because I've entered soft middle-age and became acutely aware of my own mortality. Many good things started happening to me recently and I want to be around for a long, long time to enjoy my family and success. If eliminating certain toxins from my diet helps me achieve a healthier life, then I figured it couldn't hurt.
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Posted 4/24/14
:)
that's awesome and very wise.
What would you say to the people who think that it's a lie that the toxins will affect your health and your lifespan?
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Posted 4/24/14

houourevival wrote:


dirty_soap_dish wrote:

You pay more because the crop sizes are exponentially smaller. Therefore price-per-unit must go up because available quantity is low. Having a small crop is only way for farmers to control pests without all the chemicals. It's simply impossible, at least at the moment, to grow organically on a large scale.....but if anyone has any ideas, feel free to correct me.

I've recently gone organic, so I can't say definitively if I'm reaping the benefits from it. I feel no better or worse, but I guess it can't hurt to avoid having bugspray residue flowing through my veins.

We'll see.


Its not just bug spray as that would be insectides, there are also pesticides and herbicides but to truly reap the benefits of organic, need to fix water supply, cut out take aways and create a structured diet with a routine to help restore the metabolism to optimal levels, but a start in organic is the first step, there are many factors to do but I think people often feel going to organic on its own and they will feel better, its just a big piece of a huge puzzle, there are other pieces to put with it to reap the benefits.

Now for large scale only way is to have more people working on it



Just to focus on the large scale production, I was going to respond, but I figured I'd give you a link to a page that explains the case much better than I ever could....

http://american.com/archive/2008/june-06-08/the-problem-with-organic-food


Hey, I'm skeptical about everything I read, but this article makes points that are hard to dispute. But feel free to read it and give me your thoughts. This is one of those subjects that I'm not too passionate about one way or another...it's a personal choice issue, so I'm really receptive to ideas and opinions that I don't agree with.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about the price of my veggies, but I know many people don't have that luxury.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

Aimpie wrote:

:)
that's awesome and very wise.
What would you say to the people who think that it's a lie that the toxins will affect your health and your lifespan?




I can show them pictures of what my mom looked like in the final days of her life. She ate like crap and smoked.

I can understand why there is skepticism, though. The organic life-style often comes across as more of a 'hippie' philosophy rather than a viable, healthier alternative. And some folks, including myself, get put out by philosophy over fact.

But there is also this: Some people eat Twinkies and greasy, deep-fried food everyday, smoke, and somehow live until they are 90 without getting sick. So the nay-sayers often cite these examples and it fuels their disdain towards organics.

I guess the only thing to do is find as much information on the chemical break-down of non-organic foods, identify these compounds, and research their negative effects.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

dirty_soap_dish wrote:


houourevival wrote:


dirty_soap_dish wrote:

You pay more because the crop sizes are exponentially smaller. Therefore price-per-unit must go up because available quantity is low. Having a small crop is only way for farmers to control pests without all the chemicals. It's simply impossible, at least at the moment, to grow organically on a large scale.....but if anyone has any ideas, feel free to correct me.

I've recently gone organic, so I can't say definitively if I'm reaping the benefits from it. I feel no better or worse, but I guess it can't hurt to avoid having bugspray residue flowing through my veins.

We'll see.


Its not just bug spray as that would be insectides, there are also pesticides and herbicides but to truly reap the benefits of organic, need to fix water supply, cut out take aways and create a structured diet with a routine to help restore the metabolism to optimal levels, but a start in organic is the first step, there are many factors to do but I think people often feel going to organic on its own and they will feel better, its just a big piece of a huge puzzle, there are other pieces to put with it to reap the benefits.

Now for large scale only way is to have more people working on it



Just to focus on the large scale production, I was going to respond, but I figured I'd give you a link to a page that explains the case much better than I ever could....

http://american.com/archive/2008/june-06-08/the-problem-with-organic-food


Hey, I'm skeptical about everything I read, but this article makes points that are hard to dispute. But feel free to read it and give me your thoughts. This is one of those subjects that I'm not too passionate about one way or another...it's a personal choice issue, so I'm really receptive to ideas and opinions that I don't agree with.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about the price of my veggies, but I know many people don't have that luxury.


For the large scale production they have two to three valid points, for the organic bit not being as effective, there are many new claims in recent years showing that this isnt true, but coventtianal def means cheaper and less labor intenstive and jobs, but never minding that, organic itself, there are different types of organics too, which people dont know like the way animals raised, grass fed and grain fed organic is major difference for the animal and this is where it will show an improvement in quality of health when we consume it and same for the way the crops are raised. people just assume organic means natural life, that isnt true, the way it is raised is a big factor but as they said to change the entire thing will be very hard.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14
My views are based on education and experience within various industries.

The Green/organic lifestyle is 1000% BULLSHIT.

1) "ORGANIC" merely means, in chemical terms, that the molecule contains carbon. ALL living tissue on Earth is "organic." With VERY few exceptions (such as salt, which is Sodium chloride) all food humans consume is organic. The term is misused and abused. Since people don't know what it really means, marketing people can label nearly anything as "organic" and get away with it.

Also know that not all "natural" or "organic" things are healthy. Small amounts of cyanide are present in things like almonds, and all snake venom is organic. So is E-Coli. Just being "natural" or "organic" is meaningless.

2) Pesticides, vitamins, and fertilizers of all sorts are incredibly important to humanity on the macro level, and functionally harmless to individuals. If purely "organic" agricultural methods were used, the land area required to produce enough food to feed the US would at least double. Before refined fertilizers and man-made pesticides, a large portion of the field would have to lay fallow (reducing output) and pests would destroy 20--30% of every crop. Frankly, without those "unhealthy" pesticides, vitamins and fertilizers, the 7 BILLION people we have on Earth right now would starve to death.

Also realize that in the last 100 years (the same 100 years we started using chemical fertilizers and pesticides) the average human life expectancy has increased by a third. Obviously, these "chemicals" can't be that bad.

Also realize that medical technology has improved. Increased rates of diseases are largely due to the INCREASE IN ABILITY TO DETECT THEM and NOT because they are occurring more often.

3) GMOs are good. If you have a Labrador, a poodle, a pug, a house cat of any specific breed, have ever eaten an orange (even "organic" oranges), then you like GMOs. "Genetically Modified Organisms" are created simply by cross-breeding in most cases. We have been doing this for millenia.

Go ahead and look up what a natural, wild chicken looks like. You won't recognize it when you see it. You'll think it is a different type of bird. Your "Organic, free-range" chicken is the result of hundreds of years of selective breeding. Selective breeding could also be called, "genetic modification."

4) GREEN technology is mostly bullshit. Electricity is NOT cleaner, in fact it is dirtier. In the US, around 75% of electricity is produced by combustion and the vast majority of that is coal fueled combustion. According the the DoE, for every kilowatt-hour of power generated, 1.3 POUNDS of CO2 is created. That is ten 100-watt lightbulbs for an hour, a big LCD TV for about 3 hours, or an hour of hard-core computer gaming.

Due to the inefficiency of power transmitting through the power lines, losses due to friction, and the charging efficiency of the batteries, electric and plug-in hybrid cars can cause just as much or even MORE air pollution than a well-made gasoline vehicle.

And remember that the GREEN movement wants you to buy new stuff to "save the world," But every new thing manufactured adds pollution. Everything needs to be mined, refined, shipped, manufactured, and shipped again before it becomes a usable product. With the mining, refining, shipping, and manufacturing required, you could drive a 1995 Toyota for DECADES before offsetting the amount of pollution caused by building a hybrid.

The only "green" items that are worthwhile are things like LED light fixtures, which are long-lasting, low-power replacements for frequently-changed lightbulbs.

But mostly it is all a marketing gimmick.

Any time I hear someone say that they get "organic" anything, I immediately recognize them as an uneducated, pretentious asshat.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

dark_paradox_21 wrote:

My views are based on education and experience within various industries.

The Green/organic lifestyle is 1000% BULLSHIT.

1) "ORGANIC" merely means, in chemical terms, that the molecule contains carbon. ALL living tissue on Earth is "organic." With VERY few exceptions (such as salt, which is Sodium chloride) all food humans consume is organic. The term is misused and abused. Since people don't know what it really means, marketing people can label nearly anything as "organic" and get away with it.

Also know that not all "natural" or "organic" things are healthy. Small amounts of cyanide are present in things like almonds, and all snake venom is organic. So is E-Coli. Just being "natural" or "organic" is meaningless.

2) Pesticides, vitamins, and fertilizers of all sorts are incredibly important to humanity on the macro level, and functionally harmless to individuals. If purely "organic" agricultural methods were used, the land area required to produce enough food to feed the US would at least double. Before refined fertilizers and man-made pesticides, a large portion of the field would have to lay fallow (reducing output) and pests would destroy 20--30% of every crop. Frankly, without those "unhealthy" pesticides, vitamins and fertilizers, the 7 BILLION people we have on Earth right now would starve to death.

Also realize that in the last 100 years (the same 100 years we started using chemical fertilizers and pesticides) the average human life expectancy has increased by a third. Obviously, these "chemicals" can't be that bad.

Also realize that medical technology has improved. Increased rates of diseases are largely due to the INCREASE IN ABILITY TO DETECT THEM and NOT because they are occurring more often.

3) GMOs are good. If you have a Labrador, a poodle, a pug, a house cat of any specific breed, have ever eaten an orange (even "organic" oranges), then you like GMOs. "Genetically Modified Organisms" are created simply by cross-breeding in most cases. We have been doing this for millenia.

Go ahead and look up what a natural, wild chicken looks like. You won't recognize it when you see it. You'll think it is a different type of bird. Your "Organic, free-range" chicken is the result of hundreds of years of selective breeding. Selective breeding could also be called, "genetic modification."

4) GREEN technology is mostly bullshit. Electricity is NOT cleaner, in fact it is dirtier. In the US, around 75% of electricity is produced by combustion and the vast majority of that is coal fueled combustion. According the the EPA, for every kilowatt-hour of power generated, 1.3 POUNDS of CO2 is created. That is ten 100-watt lightbulbs for an hour, a big LCD TV for about 3 hours, or an hour of hard-core computer gaming.

Due to the inefficiency of power transmitting through the power lines, losses due to friction, and the charging efficiency of the batteries, electric and plug-in hybrid cars can cause just as much or even MORE air pollution than a well-made gasoline vehicle.

And remember that the GREEN movement wants you to buy new stuff to "save the world," But every new thing manufactured adds pollution. Everything needs to be mined, refined, shipped, manufactured, and shipped again before it becomes a usable product. With the mining, refining, shipping, and manufacturing required, you could drive a 1995 Toyota for DECADES before offsetting the amount of pollution caused by building a hybrid.

The only "green" items that are worthwhile are things like LED light fixtures, which are long-lasting, low-power replacements for frequently-changed lightbulbs.

But mostly it is all a marketing gimmick.

Any time I hear someone say that they get "organic" anything, I immediately recognize them as an uneducated, pretentious asshat.


First thing to those uneducated bit, you are very narrow minded and stupid, plenty of people from the top universities have gone and brought organic and swear by it, i know loads do as they go to the top universities as they are my friends, I also got into harvard medical school with the mcat came first on reasoning and chemistry. So lets not get all arrogant okay, education isnt anything to do with it, some people do it to be an idiot as u say but not everyone is like that, some have logical reasons and open to suggestions and if u can give me proof from scientftic papers that havent been funded by the industries to benefit them i will take a look and discuss with u openly and happily. now for your points,

Cyanide in small doses is actually useful, can be used to help kill off infected or weak damaged cells before infection spreads or turn cancerous. Everything is there for a reason but its about proportions and ratios.
Now for labelling I agree with you, it is very hard to get true organic food and it takes extenstive effort to get there as people abuse it and there is no strict control even though people claim there is.

Now for your pesticides etc, lot of these are banned in the eu for being toxic but yet in the usa its allowed, bit flaw in your thinking. Second thig fertilisers and vitamins, man made vitamins - look up l cartinine, u take the supplemental form u become dependant on it for life as knocks out your production never mind ratios, want importance of ratios go look up hydrogen peroxide and water and work it out for yoruself the difference and role they play.
for fertilisers they upsetting balance again about ecological distruption. Also quantity of life doesnt mean quality of life. Quality is far more important.

You have an intresting point about being detected easier but its not just that, its also true we are having it on the increase as symptoms displayed by the patients are becoming more frequent and your so called medical technology improved it still has so many errors in detecting the problems, mri and ct scan i know tons fo cases where it has missed 4-6cm tumors - big big great improvement nods i agree.

Now for selective breeding its different from gmo, gmo is fucking with cross breeding genes and u know they dont take less pesticides but more harmful residues and now creating super resitant problems, the great hoo ha that we progressing, well antibiotics are having trouble with super bugs, this is playing with fire.

now for the green movement idk much about fuels wont comment too much but us extracting fossil fuels is determinetal to all and i am guilty of its benefits too, its distrupting the earth surface, not thought about why we are getting more earthquakes etc.


another thing before u go on praising the technology etc, science has a major flaw it is that it test within narrow limits, doesnt take into account all factors and u want proof, evolution is BULLSHIT!!! I SHOW YOU JUST ONE THING WHY, mathmatics to form the first protein in the first cell, to get correct optical ismoer, correct oritentation, shape, order etc, the chance of it all happening is 1x10^-32/33 approximately, now mathmatically we say 1x10^-19 (i think it is this) is regarded as impossible, oh dear we havent got the first protein formed what do we do, most people so called eminent evolutionists havent even picked this up.

Proof for technology they can't detect parasites accurately a key role in health conditions a big issue in actual fact, everyone thinks they are in places like india but there are lots of cases in the usa as well
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

dark_paradox_21 wrote:

My views are based on education and experience within various industries.

The Green/organic lifestyle is 1000% BULLSHIT.

1) "ORGANIC" merely means, in chemical terms, that the molecule contains carbon. ALL living tissue on Earth is "organic." With VERY few exceptions (such as salt, which is Sodium chloride) all food humans consume is organic. The term is misused and abused. Since people don't know what it really means, marketing people can label nearly anything as "organic" and get away with it.

Also know that not all "natural" or "organic" things are healthy. Small amounts of cyanide are present in things like almonds, and all snake venom is organic. So is E-Coli. Just being "natural" or "organic" is meaningless.

2) Pesticides, vitamins, and fertilizers of all sorts are incredibly important to humanity on the macro level, and functionally harmless to individuals. If purely "organic" agricultural methods were used, the land area required to produce enough food to feed the US would at least double. Before refined fertilizers and man-made pesticides, a large portion of the field would have to lay fallow (reducing output) and pests would destroy 20--30% of every crop. Frankly, without those "unhealthy" pesticides, vitamins and fertilizers, the 7 BILLION people we have on Earth right now would starve to death.

Also realize that in the last 100 years (the same 100 years we started using chemical fertilizers and pesticides) the average human life expectancy has increased by a third. Obviously, these "chemicals" can't be that bad.

Also realize that medical technology has improved. Increased rates of diseases are largely due to the INCREASE IN ABILITY TO DETECT THEM and NOT because they are occurring more often.

3) GMOs are good. If you have a Labrador, a poodle, a pug, a house cat of any specific breed, have ever eaten an orange (even "organic" oranges), then you like GMOs. "Genetically Modified Organisms" are created simply by cross-breeding in most cases. We have been doing this for millenia.

Go ahead and look up what a natural, wild chicken looks like. You won't recognize it when you see it. You'll think it is a different type of bird. Your "Organic, free-range" chicken is the result of hundreds of years of selective breeding. Selective breeding could also be called, "genetic modification."

4) GREEN technology is mostly bullshit. Electricity is NOT cleaner, in fact it is dirtier. In the US, around 75% of electricity is produced by combustion and the vast majority of that is coal fueled combustion. According the the EPA, for every kilowatt-hour of power generated, 1.3 POUNDS of CO2 is created. That is ten 100-watt lightbulbs for an hour, a big LCD TV for about 3 hours, or an hour of hard-core computer gaming.

Due to the inefficiency of power transmitting through the power lines, losses due to friction, and the charging efficiency of the batteries, electric and plug-in hybrid cars can cause just as much or even MORE air pollution than a well-made gasoline vehicle.

And remember that the GREEN movement wants you to buy new stuff to "save the world," But every new thing manufactured adds pollution. Everything needs to be mined, refined, shipped, manufactured, and shipped again before it becomes a usable product. With the mining, refining, shipping, and manufacturing required, you could drive a 1995 Toyota for DECADES before offsetting the amount of pollution caused by building a hybrid.

The only "green" items that are worthwhile are things like LED light fixtures, which are long-lasting, low-power replacements for frequently-changed lightbulbs.

But mostly it is all a marketing gimmick.

Any time I hear someone say that they get "organic" anything, I immediately recognize them as an uneducated, pretentious asshat.


1. So... You don't like the term. Good for you.

2. You neglect to mention (or don't know) that pesticides themselves have changed, and decreased in usage as further developments have been made, just like your medical tech. California wine grapes alone dropped their usage of pesticides by 60% in 20 years. The reason for these changes and the increasing scale of production is because production elsewhere has DECREASED. Local gardens are starting to come BACK, it's not a new idea. Did you know that over 95% of gasoline used is used by big rig trucks shipping mostly food?

3. So... You don't like that term either. Good for you.

4. The only statement you made here about green technology was the first sentence. The rest was gibberish. It's like saying re-using a plastic bag doesn't do anything because there was still pollution made from creating the plastic bag. They know how to store the charge generated from solar panels as heat now, not electricity, did you know that? Most greener systems don't use power lines, they're localized at the source, because that's the entire point. Actually, as it turns out, building a hybrid car creates the same amount of pollution as building a conventional car, did you know that? Did you know when not in use an electric car feeds back into the power grid preventing loss of electricity, and making production of it cheaper?

You know what the best part of this is? I'm not one of those granola hippies. I drive a 91 Jeep, I get 18 miles to the gallon, I don't buy organic produce, and I don't recycle. Your arguments are either just inexplicable anger at semantics or completely unresearched half-facts you pulled out of your ass or from five minutes of Googling. That's just brilliant.

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Posted 4/24/14
Man, I just want to eat my friggin' red pepper and onions in peace.
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I get the feeling that this guy doesn't want to have a debate, or at least won't change his mind, but I'll address some things he said anyways.

The organic label can be misused, and it often is, but there are legitimate benefits to growing things without chemicals, especially when you consider the entire ecosystem. Pesticides and other runoff from farms have been proven to be damaging to aquatic life and other aspects of the environment, especially around water. Just around where I live, runoff from agriculture into the Chesapeake Bay has led to a devastating loss of biodiversity and a slaughtering of various microorganisms that are very important to this ecosystem. If you consider the totality of how chemicals effect on our environment, you'd see why there is tremendous merit in kicking the use of pesticides all together.

The benefits of organic to an individual human through consumption are negligible, at least as far as we know now. Unless you have a particular allergy like my uncle does. Eating some foods that have been sprayed with pesticides makes his throat swell and he can't breathe.

We don't have any conclusive evidence that GMOs affect our health, either. But GMOs are also a potential threat to the environment. I'll use corn as an example. Yes, corn is a human-made plant, manufactured from grasses over a long period of time through traditional means. But the kind of corn everyone knows and loves now, the yellow corn you always see in supermarkets, has been genetically modified in a lab to withstand certain pests and grow larger. This is a problem not in and of itself, but it becomes a problem when all corn farms start adapting this particular strand of corn and abandon all other variants.

If the majority of our corn supply comes from one variety, what happens when that variety develops a disease? Just like animals, crops can get diseases, too. When that happens, there's no other variety that will survive the attack - all the yellow corn within that area will be wiped out. There's no backup. This is what we call a lack of biodiversity, and it is why many species of plants die out. The effect could be even worse if bugs manage to carry the disease to another area, infect that corn, and then another area, and infect that corn. See why this could be catastrophic?

GMOs can also be very bad for farmers themselves. I'm talking about the little farmers, not the big multi-national agribusinesses. See, when a chemical company manufactures seeds in a lab, they actually get to patent the DNA strand of that seed. That may not sound so bad, until you consider how far that patent can - and is - taken. Farmers have been sued for patent infringement if there is any trace, however small, of a GMO seed on their property that they haven't paid for. This means that if a farmer who doesn't use GMO seeds gets some on his property by accident, maybe from the winds or animals carrying it over, they can - and are - sued. This also means that farmers cannot keep seeds to replant next season, as has been done for centuries. They must go out and buy new seed from the chemical company every season. This effectively makes farmers slaves to the company.

The particular company I am talking about is Monsanto, they are real, and this is what they do every day to farmers across America.

So, yes, the health benefits of organic foods are murky at best. But the benefits to the environment are quite substantial. That's where the real value of organic lies.

Ah, one last note - the guy above talks about chickens, and how wild chickens look nothing like the chickens we have today. That is a damn travesty. Do you know how much suffering modern-day chickens go through to be put on your table? They have been bred to the point that they can't hardly walk. Their bests have been developed to over 3x the size that they should be, making it hard for them to even stand and placing an excruciating amount of stress on their legs. They go through their whole lives in pain. Not to mention how they are raised. You would be disgusted and horrified to see the chicken coops of modern-day America. They live shoulder-to-shoulder with thousands of other birds, wallowing in their own filth, breathing in the ammonia from their own excrement. All in a completely closed off hut that allows for little, if any, ventilation.

Sure, bigger chickens means more food. But do they really have to suffer so damn much? They're living beings. Have some respect.
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