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Post Reply What do you think of the organic/natural/holistic life style?
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33 / M / Denver
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14

houourevival wrote:


1. So... You don't like the term. Good for you.

2. You neglect to mention (or don't know) that pesticides themselves have changed, and decreased in usage as further developments have been made, just like your medical tech. California wine grapes alone dropped their usage of pesticides by 60% in 20 years. The reason for these changes and the increasing scale of production is because production elsewhere has DECREASED. Local gardens are starting to come BACK, it's not a new idea. Did you know that over 95% of gasoline used is used by big rig trucks shipping mostly food?

3. So... You don't like that term either. Good for you.

4. The only statement you made here about green technology was the first sentence. The rest was gibberish. It's like saying re-using a plastic bag doesn't do anything because there was still pollution made from creating the plastic bag. They know how to store the charge generated from solar panels as heat now, not electricity, did you know that? Most greener systems don't use power lines, they're localized at the source, because that's the entire point. Actually, as it turns out, building a hybrid car creates the same amount of pollution as building a conventional car, did you know that? Did you know when not in use an electric car feeds back into the power grid preventing loss of electricity, and making production of it cheaper?

You know what the best part of this is? I'm not one of those granola hippies. I drive a 91 Jeep, I get 18 miles to the gallon, I don't buy organic produce, and I don't recycle. Your arguments are either just inexplicable anger at semantics or completely unresearched, facts you pulled out of your ass or from five minutes of Googling. That's just brilliant.



First thing pesticides have changed and example is DDT and there are many now days far worse and big deal about wine grapes, wine and all alcohol is toxic anyway but do you know they also link to industrial waste in water supply, second thing about shipping food, i know a lot of gasoline goes to that
for the oil bit u didnt understand the signifance so when u do please come back to reality so for ur plastic bag that is gibberish
and for the rest its not gibberish u are actuallu incredibly stupid for ur age, the issue is far deeper to show u because u obviously believe all mainstream stuff, whatever i wrote was just key points, the rest is for u to go research and work out why i wrote it and all of what u told me i already know, you obviously are very narrow minded and lazy as a person, ur points are just about a few things that u know and thats the end of ur story as u cant understand anything outside of ur view and my main point of the arguments were, what u think u know has a deeper meaning and not everyone does it without logical reason but u were too thick to see that. u lack the knowledge to understand the science and deeper meanings behind what i wrote, if u think otherwise, delude urself my friend and live a good life till u get cancer or some other shit, then may the hippies save u, see normally i would say go to the naturopaths or something but i want a hippie to save u just because u think all hippies are stupid or least the way u make it sound, because even steve jobs was using organic and natural to the best of his ability and he was a genius, if u think otherwise then u are more stupid than i thought. u have to look BEYOND YOUR NARROW MIND AND IGNORANCE AND TRY UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO THINGS, NOT EVERYONE IS TO BE TARRED WITH THE SAME BRUSH and for my facts i can prove what i wrote yet again u show ignorance, u just presume i am googling or pulling it out but u didnt think about my points in detail, if u did wouldnt have replied that fast, see that is proof end of story wont bother replying to u as u give me a headache from stupidity and it is infectious


You know your response was to the wrong person, right? I wasn't originally the person you responded to.. My response was for Dark_Paradox, and when I created the comment your post did not exist yet.
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Posted 4/24/14
I think its Important to note that its a little deeper then just Organic vs Industrial Agriculture. The problem is the Industrial Agriculture has become synonymous with GMO's, and so its become Organic vs GMO's. At least in a mainstream sense. Medical communities, doctors, and scientists from around the globe have been speaking out about the dangers of saturating the food supply with pesticide laden gmo foods, without proper research and long term testing. GMOS and certain pesticides (glyphosate) have been or are being banned in many countries around the world. Here in the US though, these products saturate the market spectrum. Anything with wheat, corn, soy, or sugarbeets is undoubtedly GMO. Is it just coincidence were the most diseased nation on Earth? Thats another topic entirely...

Now to Aimpies question about affordabilty- "Organic" food is not more expensive because of "exponentially lower" crop yields. Crop yields for organic or industiral are not much different, and arguments are often made that done right Organic does yield more. Supply and Demand is the culprit, but not because of crop yield. Its because a handful of megacorporations (biotech/food industry) have been working long, hard, and quietly (until recently) to put small organic farmers out of business, worldwide. On top of that, here in the US there are high certification fee's to be paid for your product to be labeled "organic". In order for smaller family farms to stay in business and not lose their livelyhoods theyre effectively forced to join Big AG and plant gmos and use copious amounts of roundup to make money. This is what drives up the cost of Organic food. Corporations consolidating their control over the global food supply (and energy for that matter) for power, wealth, and to control the people and get them dependant on pharmaceuticals (the big pharma companies happen to own the biotech companies..hmmm)

There should be no question, rather it should be a no brainer, that Organic food is healthier. Most american "food" is made from GMO ingredients, and also contain strait up industrial toxins, and eating all organic is almost impossible. Personally, I pick my fights. I avoid high fructose corn syrup LIKE THE PLAGUE (diabetes anyone?) and I go to dinner at my Moms alot beause she buys organic and has good healthy homecooked meals.
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Posted 4/24/14
All you need to live is protein and push ups!
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Posted 4/24/14
woops sorry bro was an accident, replied to the wrong person lmao

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Posted 4/24/14


In my time I have done much. I grew up in a mining town, toured their sites and learned their methods. I was an electrician in the US Navy. I have operated power plants. My navy experience also familiarized me with shipping methods. I have also worked as a LEED AP commissioning agent on commercial/industrial properties. I have personally seen, QA tested, and used all the technology you're talking about first hand. YOU sir, are the one writing unresearched gibberish.

But you're right that I am angry about it. It is not inexplicable. I can explain with a story:

In the middle ages, cats were considered the Devil's familiars and were killed en masse. With no cats to kill the rats, the rat population boomed. With a rat population boom, there was also a flea population boom. With the flea population boom came the plague, which killed 1/3 of the world's population.

The moral of the story: Misconceptions can be deadly on a massive scale.

If we tear down mountains to build lithium mines to power electric cars, belch smoke into the air from power plants instead of tail pipes, and starve people by using "organic" farming methods that lower crop yield, we are doing irreparable harm to ourselves. People need to stop believing the advertisements and research the WHOLE product lifecycle in order to make informed choices or we really could have a catastrophe. Such things can and have happened before.

THAT is why I get angry about the topic.
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31 / M / US
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Posted 4/24/14


Plenty of the "people from top universities" are either specialists in other fields with no relevant knowledge on the topic, or are living on grant money from the affected industries.

You ask for evidence? Do you want me to send you the papers I did in college with all the sources cited? Do you want me to send you my LEED test results? Would you like a copy of my resume? Or a list of past employers to show I worked with such things? Would you believe me if I did? LOOK THINGS UP YOURSELF. I am writing here to point the way to knowledge, not cram it into your skull. You won't believe me until you see it for yourself anyway.

And you completely missed the point with your other comments. I am speaking on a macro scale. I don't give a damn about your thoughts on evolution or the effects of trace amounts of cyanide. The whole point is that the "organic" and "green" industries are gimmicks and that people are endangering themselves by blindly following the hype.
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23 / M / Northern California
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Posted 4/24/14
It can be hard and expensive but a good way to live.
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20 / F / *****
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Posted 4/24/14
I love your arguments and your points.
I think it is right that people shouldnt follow hypes blindly.
What would you say about the people who actually do see great results in their bodies and healing after going organic? What would explain that (if there were physical evidence, not just psychological)?

Also what are the arguments saying that pesticides are not harmful?

_______________

After going organic (same healthy diet, just only difference was organic) my tachycardia disappeared and my sugar levels balanced. My acne disappeared, my nails and hair became strong and beautiful, and my hormones started regulating better-- menstruation cycle became regular and I had started to experience no menstrual pains at all. (Before I would have to be hospitalized for menstrual pains because they were so bad) What could be the other plausible reasons for this all to have been fixed? (I genuinely want to know the other plausible reasons besides the fact that i just switched to organic, im not just saying this to be an ahole)
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Posted 4/24/14
Meh, if I had to avoid stuff I wanted to do... I would rather live a short, short life doing stuff I like.
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It doesn't matter.
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Posted 4/24/14
Nature is weak.
Synthetic lasts forever.
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33 / M / Denver
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Posted 4/24/14

dark_paradox_21 wrote:



In my time I have done much. I grew up in a mining town, toured their sites and learned their methods. I was an electrician in the US Navy. I have operated power plants. My navy experience also familiarized me with shipping methods. I have also worked as a LEED AP commissioning agent on commercial/industrial properties. I have personally seen, QA tested, and used all the technology you're talking about first hand. YOU sir, are the one writing unresearched gibberish.

But you're right that I am angry about it. It is not inexplicable. I can explain with a story:

In the middle ages, cats were considered the Devil's familiars and were killed en masse. With no cats to kill the rats, the rat population boomed. With a rat population boom, there was also a flea population boom. With the flea population boom came the plague, which killed 1/3 of the world's population.

The moral of the story: Misconceptions can be deadly on a massive scale.

If we tear down mountains to build lithium mines to power electric cars, belch smoke into the air from power plants instead of tail pipes, and starve people by using "organic" farming methods that lower crop yield, we are doing irreparable harm to ourselves. People need to stop believing the advertisements and research the WHOLE product lifecycle in order to make informed choices or we really could have a catastrophe. Such things can and have happened before.

THAT is why I get angry about the topic.



Let's take this one step at a time.

Your argument of life expectancy is completely arbitrary in this discussion and links into many different subjects. That's a fact. End of story.

As far as pesticides go, the EPA's only been looking at them for the last 20 of those 70 years, from what I'm seeing of their reports. 20 years is not necessarily enough time to prove cumulative effects on the body, though the effects of direct pesticide effects are well documented. There is no nutritional difference in "organic". Food is food. What flies over your head is the fact that even if pesticides were all outlawed tomorrow, but most communities and homes had their own vegetable gardens, the explosive land needs and crop failures you mention would be COMPLETELY irrelevant. As an added bonus, all that fuel I mentioned being used to transport food - wouldn't be used to transport food anymore. Emissions realistically wouldn't drop to zero, but if localized food production became a reality, that's a massive difference in the atmosphere. Don't start with the "what ifs". Stick to the relevant facts. If you want more information on pesticides, go to the EPA's website, there's a shit-ton of it there, though I have a creeping suspicion that you're a Republican and that information won't matter.

As for GMO's, there are at least ten scientific studies proving that they're harmful to health.

The feeding back into the grid thing happens in small jolts. A network of thousands of plug-in cars stabilizes the grid, AND earns you money from the electric company for doing it. The idea they're working with is to give the grid a "spinning reserve." Nissan allows Japanese owners of the model to power their homes off their car if the grid happens to go down. Look up the Delaware project on the matter. Maybe you and I weren't talking about the same thing, or your information was outdated. Go argue with them if you like.

As far as efficiency of green products or alternative energy: you seem to keep coming back to Lithium-ion, so let's stick with that. Or, let's not, because although that tech is evolving in various minor ways, the fact of the matter is that Li-ion is tapped out. There are only so many improvements that can still be made, even setting aside all the fires.

The solar storage I was referring to was thermal batteries MIT is working on using chemical switches, NOT water, NOT mass. It's entirely clean and infinitely renewable, but it's not efficient yet. They need better materials and manufacturing methods.

ARPA is currently working on a model with zinc or manganese batteries that already have the efficiency of Li-ion, and are much safer, cheaper, and environmentally responsible than both Li-ion or Ni-cad. They have a working prototype.

Cornell University already has an aluminum battery that can be smaller than a Li-ion battery while packing the same amount of power.

The fact is, Lithium-ion tech is only somewhat current tech. This fact unfortunately deflates much of what you angrily have to say on the matter. Sure, there are unique obstacles in very case - same as Li-ion. How many of those costs are actually real, and how many are "real" because of domineering lobbyists is a separate discussion, but a real factor.

This is where the science stops, and economics, or more specifically politics step in. You and I both know it. Costs are flexible, changing, and frankly illusory to some degree in the face of changes that we will eventually have to make anyway. Not many people know that dandelion roots look AND taste like coffee (no caffeine though) - you know, those little yellow flowers people spray for and rip out of the ground every year because they're "weeds". We'll keep right on spending 100 billion dollars per year importing coffee though, because after all, that's a "real" cost.
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Posted 4/24/14
I could not do it.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14
I've been eating organic for a bunch of years now. It's pretty difficult to eat 100% organic what with availability, prices, etc. I think over half of the food I eat is organic. My main reason for going organic is that I want to get away from the following:
* high fructose corn syrup - I feel pretty weak
* bleached wheat - I get allergies
In general I feel better with organic foods


A note regarding the term "organic" in "organic food". It is actually a legal term that comes from a California law that was passed on 1990 I think (I might be incorrect about the date though). I remember reading some of the actual law text online a bunch of years ago. In this context, organic food is food that lacks three things: pesticides, chemicals and something else I forget. When you see a product that's certified organic it means that it has been certified to have been grown that way. In contrast, when you go study chemistry there is a difference between organic and inorganic (they're studied in separate courses), but the usage in chemistry is not the same as the legal one.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/25/14
Edit: I had constructed a post to clarify a number of the misconceptions that have been presented in this thread but have decided my efforts would just be a waste of time.
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Posted 4/24/14 , edited 4/24/14
I had posted a reply to a post on this thread and have completely given up on arguing and supporting my argument. I will leave it at that.
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