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Post Reply Jesus dying on the cross cannot be the most painful form of death....
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Posted 4/25/14 , edited 11/3/16
I suppose I'm more concerned with the theological aspect of this point than as to the question of whether the value of the suffering of Jesus was greater or lesser than anyone else's. It does not seem to me inconsistent that there should be people whom for all the right judgement has been made, have suffered greater than Jesus.

But I think you miss the beauty of the incarnation when you limit it to Jesus's main suffering to his death. Though the suffering of Christ on the cross I do not think can be surpassed, even by rape, I would not say the suffering of the victim of that crime is suffering less. They seem thoroughly equal to me in the violation and evil committed against the victim. I don't think it is necessarily about Christ suffering the worst of all sufferings, though certainty crucifixion then was the death of criminals, and slaves in which one was not just tortured physically but mentally. Roman writers scoffed at the crucified Hero because in the act of being crucified one was worthy of that sort of treatment (There's a great little book called Crucifixion by Martin Hengel which goes into this more exhaustively that I would recommend). In Christ there is seen one whom we can sympathize with, not only because of the cross but because of his entire life. Too many Christians give the inflated picture of Jesus as being God, which he surely was, but they ignore the theology which has developed and said that Christ not only has two natures but two wills, human and divine. Jesus literally learned and literally experienced the world as we experience it, seeing all it has to offer.

But the cross would not have been the only suffering Christ was victim to, being a Judean Peasant I'm sure was a much tougher life than those of us who earn the lowest in terms of income in society. Being exposed constantly to the diseased, the beggars and all the people Jesus healed in his ministry. The crucifixion is only the crescendo of suffering Christ experienced while on earth.

The theological picture develops, that if Christianity is true that God cared for us so much that he sent himself into the world. Not as a detached spirit inhabiting a body and controlling it as if a puppet, but personally and adding on to his person a second nature, which would be there for the rest of eternity.

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Posted 5/17/14
most people here missed the point.

1. Jesus is innocent yet he has to be executed.
2. And that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the completion of the prophesies of old. From the time of Adam up to John the Baptist
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Posted 5/31/14 , edited 5/31/14
I agree with the above comment.

The bigger point isn't how much He suffered but that He was willing to go through this.

Others have suffered, but they did so unwillingly.
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Posted 5/31/14
Explosive diarrhea after winning a habanero eating contest and dehydrating to death is by far the most painful way to die.
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Posted 6/2/14 , edited 6/2/14
Jesus didn't suffer THAT much more pain than a lot of other people who went through crucifixion. A lot of other people arguably had worse torture before they were put up on the cross, and suffered a lot worse humiliation when you consider that Jesus had a lot of sympathizers. It's not like he had a broom stick shoved up his ass or his limbs broken.

With that being said though, I'm curious as to why the sacrifice for sin part is relevant. How does that work? Jesus is technically God right? So how does God forgive anybody by making his avatar on Earth die horribly? What part of forgiveness does this take part of?

Forgiveness as far as I'm aware doesn't work like that. When you put a condition forth in order to let a wrongdoing go, that isn't forgiveness. That's repayment. When I think of forgiveness, it's that someone wronged you but you let it be water under the bridge without any sort of compensation.

Not to mention, it makes no sense to me when someone else does you wrong, and you put yourself through hell to find repayment for that person. How has that sin been amended? Like.... even remotely?
Posted 6/2/14
are you saying it could be?
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Posted 6/4/14 , edited 6/4/14

BigDaddyDelish wrote:

Jesus didn't suffer THAT much more pain than a lot of other people who went through crucifixion. A lot of other people arguably had worse torture before they were put up on the cross, and suffered a lot worse humiliation when you consider that Jesus had a lot of sympathizers. It's not like he had a broom stick shoved up his ass or his limbs broken.

With that being said though, I'm curious as to why the sacrifice for sin part is relevant. How does that work? Jesus is technically God right? So how does God forgive anybody by making his avatar on Earth die horribly? What part of forgiveness does this take part of?

Forgiveness as far as I'm aware doesn't work like that. When you put a condition forth in order to let a wrongdoing go, that isn't forgiveness. That's repayment. When I think of forgiveness, it's that someone wronged you but you let it be water under the bridge without any sort of compensation.

Not to mention, it makes no sense to me when someone else does you wrong, and you put yourself through hell to find repayment for that person. How has that sin been amended? Like.... even remotely?


While I no longer consider myself a Christian, I once was and have also studied religion a bit so I think I can answer your question.

Judaism and many other religions have the concept that sins can be paid for through sacrifice. The moneylenders at the temple that Jesus rallied against lent money so you could buy animals to sacrifice to God to clear your sins. The bigger the sin, the better and more expensive animal you need to sacrifice to atone for what you did. So Jesus's sacrifice is suppose to be a substitute for animals/crops/money that we would have to sacrifice to atone for our sins. The God of the Old Testament set up a system of sacrifice to pay for forgiveness and for some reason, he couldn't just scrap the system and say there is a new one. He also had to play by his own system and offer something of extreme value for sacrifice to undue the old covenant and replace it with a new covenant where sacrifice isn't needed to atone for your sins. What could be more valuable to God than his Son?

I use to work at an office that was primarily run by Indians and the head partner was a practicing Hindu. To ensure the prosperity of the office, they had a Hindu priest come to the office to bless it and receive a sacrifice from the office, which was a selection of fruit and an envelope containing a good deal of money. Sacrifice of money and/or goods was a part of most religions during the time of Christ. His death changed that component of religion for Christians.
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Posted 6/4/14
This thread made me laugh, it's too logical xD

kirika202 wrote:

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus had the "most painful" death or that he "suffered more than anyone else in this world"?

It says that he died for our sins, he willingly became a sacrifice for us so we can get salvation and that's the meaning of his death and not that he "suffered more" or how painful it was.
well I think the important question to ask is, was jesus the first person to sacrifice himself for others?
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Posted 6/4/14

kirika202 wrote:

This was never a competition so it doesn't matter who was the first one but the fact that he did is what matters.
but why?
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Posted 6/5/14 , edited 4/29/15

BigDaddyDelish wrote:

Jesus didn't suffer THAT much more pain than a lot of other people who went through crucifixion. A lot of other people arguably had worse torture before they were put up on the cross, and suffered a lot worse humiliation when you consider that Jesus had a lot of sympathizers. It's not like he had a broom stick shoved up his ass or his limbs broken.

With that being said though, I'm curious as to why the sacrifice for sin part is relevant. How does that work? Jesus is technically God right? So how does God forgive anybody by making his avatar on Earth die horribly? What part of forgiveness does this take part of?

Forgiveness as far as I'm aware doesn't work like that. When you put a condition forth in order to let a wrongdoing go, that isn't forgiveness. That's repayment. When I think of forgiveness, it's that someone wronged you but you let it be water under the bridge without any sort of compensation.

Not to mention, it makes no sense to me when someone else does you wrong, and you put yourself through hell to find repayment for that person. How has that sin been amended? Like.... even remotely?


There was a book written called on the Incarnation by one Athanasius that goes into much more depth and detail in giving an answer to the question. For one thing, in Christian theology Jesus is not an avatar, a representation of the God on earth, but he is actually God, taking on the human substance in a hypostatic union of humanity and divinity. The incarnation is God actually being on earth, the immortal God, Jesus Christ, second person in the trinity. God could by declaration forgive sinners, just say the words but he did not do it this way, this impersonal way, but instead he came into creation and became part of Creation for our sakes. This was to demonstrate his love for us, to become the perfect example for us, we do not have a high priest who is so unlike us. We had a God who loved us so much that he took on to himself a lesser nature that will always be his nature forever and we did not deserve it. We have a high priest who was in every way like us, without sin, who became the perfect payment for our sins on the cross. Jesus the righteous one did not deserve to die, yet he died for us all the same.

It was more than a merely legal redemption from sins, the mere need to pay for them, it was about God demonstrating himself on earth for our sakes. Showing that humanity is not beyond the realm of salvation.
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Posted 6/5/14
I'm not religious in any way shape or form, but i'm still not sure if you're trolling or being serious
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Posted 6/5/14

FlyinDumpling wrote:

This thread made me laugh, it's too logical xD

kirika202 wrote:

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus had the "most painful" death or that he "suffered more than anyone else in this world"?

It says that he died for our sins, he willingly became a sacrifice for us so we can get salvation and that's the meaning of his death and not that he "suffered more" or how painful it was.
well I think the important question to ask is, was jesus the first person to sacrifice himself for others?


This is reaching into my hazy deaths of world religion, but I believe, Horus and Mithra are two Gods who died for their people and were resurrected.
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Posted 4/29/15
Doesn't really matter what anyone here thinks really...

No one can prove either side of the argument. It's like watching an Atheist and a religious person argue over beliefs. Neither can prove their side. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I can't go around proving someones belief is wrong, but I also can't prove I'm right.

Pain is subjective anyways, so this is a moot point.
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