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Animes with all-pervasive CG
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Posted 5/20/14

deliciousmeatsandwich wrote:

I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but what about the berserk ovas?


Heh, I was thinking the same thing.
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Posted 5/20/14

Man_Of_Leisure wrote:


thedryness wrote:

sidonia's modeling/texturing/rendering is soo good, but then the animation is absolute crap. i don't know why cgi anime can't seem to get decent animators. its looks like they are just having their modelers animate it half the time. hell even early 3d cartoons like jimmy neutron had way better animation than any cg anime i've seen. maybe with technologies like mo-cap getting cheaper and easier to use this will change.


Sidonia looks ok to me, but i swear the characters move at like 8 frames per second instead of 15(I guess this is normal for anime?). The characters movements are just not smooth. Is that what you mean?

Edit: googled around and apparently 15fps is normal for anime...


yes. the movement is what i mean when i say animation. and framerate isn't the issue. its just as easy to render it in 60 frames per second as it is 10. you literally just input the fps second you want. the problem is the people that designate how the characters should move just do a poor job, either to save time, or because they just don't understand concepts of traditional animation.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 5/21/14

thedryness wrote:

sidonia's modeling/texturing/rendering is soo good, but then the animation is absolute crap. i don't know why cgi anime can't seem to get decent animators. its looks like they are just having their modelers animate it half the time. hell even early 3d cartoons like jimmy neutron had way better animation than any cg anime i've seen. maybe with technologies like mo-cap getting cheaper and easier to use this will change.


I've got the feeling that they're trying to keep the costs down and also make the schedule by CGing stuff where they could have drawn. If they use motion capture that would mean hiring more human beings and spending more time just to capture, which would increase costs plus take more time.


plaidypuss wrote:

Appleseed.


Was it Appleseed: Deux Ex Machina? I was going to mention it at first but it's been a while and I couldn't be sure.
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Posted 5/21/14

plaidypuss wrote:

Appleseed.

Kingdom bounces between cel and CG, without any real reason or benefit.


The second series bounces, the first season was jarring with the amount of cg it had.

In regards to the OP, I don't think it's 'render lag', because you're obviously not watching it when it's getting rendered but x amount of time afterwards. Properly rendering a 3d scene can take hours depending on computer resources and budget etc, etc. Unless you're talking about some sort of limitation on your own machine to render a particular scene because your computer's movie player is fighting for system resources with other applications.
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Posted 5/21/14

thedryness wrote:

yes. the movement is what i mean when i say animation. and framerate isn't the issue. its just as easy to render it in 60 frames per second as it is 10. you literally just input the fps second you want. the problem is the people that designate how the characters should move just do a poor job, either to save time, or because they just don't understand concepts of traditional animation.


What I'm talking about is clearly frame rate between key frames. Yes, they could have chosen a higher rate, but they didn't, No doubt to save on rendering time. If you think I'm crazy check out the fansubbers that are using motion interpolation to smooth out the choppiness.
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Posted 5/21/14

Man_Of_Leisure wrote:

What I'm talking about is clearly frame rate between key frames. Yes, they could have chosen a higher rate, but they didn't, No doubt to save on rendering time. If you think I'm crazy check out the fansubbers that are using motion interpolation to smooth out the choppiness.

I makes one wonder why if the producers of the anime felt they had to cut the render time to keep on schedule, why they didn't also use motion interpolation to smooth the presentation out.

Perhaps re-rendering at a higher frame rate will be one of the "fixes" done for the BD/DVD release. Improving the animation for the home video release in Japan seems to be common for anime these days.

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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 5/21/14

TheAncientOne wrote:


Man_Of_Leisure wrote:

What I'm talking about is clearly frame rate between key frames. Yes, they could have chosen a higher rate, but they didn't, No doubt to save on rendering time. If you think I'm crazy check out the fansubbers that are using motion interpolation to smooth out the choppiness.

I makes one wonder why if the producers of the anime felt they had to cut the render time to keep on schedule, why they didn't also use motion interpolation to smooth the presentation out.

Perhaps re-rendering at a higher frame rate will be one of the "fixes" done for the BD/DVD release. Improving the animation for the home video release in Japan seems to be common for anime these days.


I think the studios stay away from the interpolation because it reduces the detail. Most TV's have that functionality but its not very popular because it makes everything seem fake. As you say I'm sure it came down to schedule, but probably more in terms of scheduling use of their server farms. Since it takes racks and racks of computers to render and studios have many projects I'm sure they had to squeeze into schedule the resources, and then of course (as I assume you meant) their production deadlines.

There is so much detail put into making the ship, the mechs, and everything in general look worn and used that I imagine they made the choice to favor detail over fluidity. I suppose I should applaud them for maintaing their artistic integrity. I've mostly gotten use it, and I really do enjoy the amount of detail. It's my favorite show this season.
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Posted 5/21/14
Appleseed Ex Machina is an all cgi movie, sort of like a Final Fantasy and experimental. It looks very wooden, forgivable for its age- it wasn't bad but I haven't had the urge to rewatch it once in 6 years.
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Posted 5/21/14

Man_Of_Leisure wrote:


thedryness wrote:

yes. the movement is what i mean when i say animation. and framerate isn't the issue. its just as easy to render it in 60 frames per second as it is 10. you literally just input the fps second you want. the problem is the people that designate how the characters should move just do a poor job, either to save time, or because they just don't understand concepts of traditional animation.


What I'm talking about is clearly frame rate between key frames. Yes, they could have chosen a higher rate, but they didn't, No doubt to save on rendering time. If you think I'm crazy check out the fansubbers that are using motion interpolation to smooth out the choppiness.


the framerate choppiness that your talking about most likely isn't even from the production of the anime, its probably from the shitty rips that are being passed around. my guess is once you can buy it/ stream from a legit source that problem will mostly go away. but that isn't at all what i was talking about originally.
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Posted 5/22/14

OniFeeZ wrote:


plaidypuss wrote:

Appleseed.

Kingdom bounces between cel and CG, without any real reason or benefit.


The second series bounces, the first season was jarring with the amount of cg it had.

In regards to the OP, I don't think it's 'render lag', because you're obviously not watching it when it's getting rendered but x amount of time afterwards. Properly rendering a 3d scene can take hours depending on computer resources and budget etc, etc. Unless you're talking about some sort of limitation on your own machine to render a particular scene because your computer's movie player is fighting for system resources with other applications.


You're right, the "lag" is only in how the rendering looks but not the actual production of the rendering.

I guess they don't have the budget to access the kind of rendering farm that has enough power to render enough frames in the time permitted so they cut back, causing the appearance of lag.
The Wise Wizard
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Posted 5/22/14 , edited 5/22/14

thedryness wrote:

the framerate choppiness that your talking about most likely isn't even from the production of the anime, its probably from the shitty rips that are being passed around. my guess is once you can buy it/ stream from a legit source that problem will mostly go away. but that isn't at all what i was talking about originally.

I would think if the rips were the cause, people would be seeing this same issue on other anime done with traditional animation.

As I mentioned previously, there is a good chance this issue will be addressed with the home video release, due to the common practice in recent years of "fixing" anime before they are published to disc.

It remains to be seen if Netflix's stream this summer will benefit from any improvements made for the home video release. I expect much of it will depend on exactly when they begin streaming. If they begin immediately after the series ends, the first episode(s) would likely be the same quality as was shown during the broadcast in Japan.

EDIT:

Speak of the devil:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/05/22/netflix-sets-knights-of-sidonia-premiere-date


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Posted 5/22/14 , edited 5/22/14
^
I also assumed it was the quality of the rips, but it's not universal, For example, camera panning is silky smooth, and effects such as digital displays, the mechs, or anything in the background is very smooth in contrast. Movement is smooth even if there is a character on a moving object such as a baggage cart or riding an elevator, as long as the character is not moving it is still very very smooth. The jitter is purely the movement of the characters. Even the mechs have high frame rate, and the guana's movements look amazing, no problems there.

I bet they blew their wad on animating tentacles =o
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Posted 5/22/14

TheAncientOne wrote:

I would think if the rips were the cause, people would be seeing this same issue on other anime done with traditional animation.

As I mentioned previously, there is a good chance this issue will be addressed with the home video release, due to the common practice in recent years of "fixing" anime before they are published to disc.

It remains to be seen if Netflix's stream this summer will benefit from any improvements made for the home video release. I expect much of it will depend on exactly when they begin streaming. If they begin immediately after the series ends, the first episode(s) would likely be the same quality as was shown during the broadcast in Japan.

EDIT:

Speak of the devil:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/05/22/netflix-sets-knights-of-sidonia-premiere-date




well unlike most anime that can be ripped from web sources or bd/dvd, sidonia only aired on television afaik so that might also have something to do with the quality of the rip. also traditional animation is drawn at a much lower fram rate to begin with. exporting rendered 3d at a decent frame rate is trivial so i am definitely inclined to believe the framerate issue is one of the rip and not of the production.
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"Year-end cleanup. Closing threads with no activity since 2014."
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