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Post Reply The Scientific Theory of Evolution has no holes, so why are there still theists?
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/6/15
I just wrote a thesis on evolution and it doesn't even account for the views of half of the US. It only accounts for 40% of beliefs (that is f**king sad... don't you think). So why is that?

EDIT:

So let me make something clear... I am NOT stating that the scientific theory of evolution is incompatible with the existence of a god. When I say "Theists" I'm talking about people who believe in a being such as the judeo/christian god mainly because of all of the things that come along with it. One being the virgin birth. Another being the countless contradictions and fallacies. One example of this (or maybe eight is more appropriate) is the mentioning of unicorns eight times.

EDIT:

Hey guys, I'd like all of you to go here and state your views at the request of myself and morecrunch (pg 43).
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-882349/do-you-believe-in-a-god-or-gods


Shmerber wrote:


saksiss wrote:

Oh shit, OP wrote a thesis. Quick, we better all stop believing in God altogether.

I believe in God, the afterlife AND evolution. Problem?


I'd like to state something.


This thread was not intended for people to attack each others beliefs. If that is what you came here to do then you must leave.

Small scale bickering, teasing and taunting is fine, but just try not to take it to far. If that is solely your goal then you have no place here.


EDIT:

Because SilvaZoldyck so eloquently explained my argument in regards to the topic at hand, I'm going to quote him here.


SilvaZoldyck wrote:


PDXollie74 wrote:


The point of the matter was not to discuss if my posts were argumentative. You began this topic to discuss how science may or may not disprove Theism by way of the Theory of Evolution and have yet to provide very little in the way of persuasive discussion. It has since devolved into a vehicle for you to merely to express your own intolerance of other's beliefs.

A belief does not need to be scientific in nature nor require any burden of proof. Only children or those that find the need to justify their own beliefs make the demand that others prove their beliefs.

I have an opinion, you have an opinion, everybody has an opinion. If they don't agree, I don't F#%$ing care. Everybody is welcome to their own opinion. Do not demand that others should have to "prove" their beliefs.



Under some definitions of theism, using most definitions of the word 'prove', there really ARE fair arguments that 'evolution' alone renders most forms of theism promoting any active god are conclusively wrong by any kind of observational evidence.

You're right that the most general and vague 'deity-like' structures are so nebulous they can't be defined, so can't be susceptible to rational observation.... but most people don't believe in a deist god, I'd argue most people spend very little time questioning their beliefs, or their epistemological grounding.

Children aren't known for intensive introspection and discerning fantasy from reality. Children are the type of people who believe in Santa, and you're right, older kids might make fun of younger kids saying 'hahaha, you still believe in Santa', but is your argument really here "people have their own opinions, and thus those opinions should be permanently sheltered from any kind of questions"?

You have an opinion, but your opinion probably leads to you have various real world actions, does it not? You have an 'opinion' on what laws or representatives you vote on, don't you? Your 'opinion' leads you to make choices on who to spend your time with, and what you spend your time doing, does it not? Does that not also impact the other people whose lives you interact with?

Doesn't that make you responsible to identify if your opinion is consistent with facts or not? "I have an opinion... it may be wrong and hurts others, but I don't care, because it's my opinion and shouldn't be challenged"?

Most robust forms of god, when push comes to shove and the religious are forced to take a stand... fall flat on challenges. As CS Lewis said, "One last word. I have found that nothing is more dangerous to one’s own faith than the work of an apologist. No doctrine of that faith seems to me so spectral, so unreal as the one that I have just successfully defended in a public debate."

I think it's that reasoning, that implicit back of your mind nagging when forced to defend that says "none of this even sounds real" that causes people to want to remove religion from the realm of rational discourse. It's why 'faith' is the ultimate virtue to the religious, because ultimately, since it is so unreal, you are forced to escape from the rational and go to the imaginary.

Science, and evolution in particular are effective at destroying established notions of god, the gods that could have been proven true or false. "Oh, guess Apollo really doesn't carry the sun on a chariot". "Oh, guess Thor isn't the source of lightning". "Oh, guess Yahweh isn't responsible for the creation of all life on earth and human beings"

Once you no longer require your god operate by the claims made thousands of years ago, the ones that were falsified, sure, you can't 'prove it wrong' but at that point what is the 'god' you are actually describing?

The notions are indefensible, and yet people build robust worldviews of what god thinks is 'good or proper morality'. Since these beliefs do have direct consequences on people's real world actions, yeah, I think the beliefs deserve to stand up to a bit of scrutiny.

When scrutinized, I can use science. That's why people try so hard to avoid even a basic level of scrutiny.

Why should we coddle adults?

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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/4/15
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/3/15
I'm going to try to be straightforward. it's mostly because a lot of Americans are Christians and generally speaking they create their own ideas based on things such as the bible and don't go as deep into science as others would. I know it's sad, but it's the truth. In other developed countries like France and Great Britain people are starting to become more atheist about 1/3 of the population for each are atheist and go more into the science field. When in the U.S. 9/10 still believe in a god.

What I'm trying to say is Americans are generally very ignorant and don't accept certain facts accepted by the scientific community. But instead create their own assumptions. But like I said this doesn't apply to all Americans.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/3/15


Well, a lot of them don't think that something as "complex" as a human could evolve from a single cellular organism. They think we made an apparition here by a deity or something.

The ones that do accept Evolution would claim that the deity orchestrated the process; but the problem with that notion is that... in their bible, it said the Earth came before the Sun, so... how the hell did plants photosynthesise on Earth without the Sun?? :S

Then they will say... "Oh God can make anything happens, even make a virgin woman pregnant"... so I guess that's that. In religion, magic >>> science/logic.

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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/9/15
The primary issue is whether evolution proves atheism. I'm of a mind to think that it doesn't.

Evolution is merely a theory that describes a physical reality - it doesn't say anything of a metaphysical reality, and if it does, then i'd argue that it isn't real science.

Basically, its not evolution that theists take issue with - its the assumption that evolution inherently implies pure naturalism.. If science is boldly asserting "There is no purpose in nature and only the material exists" it is making an inherently philosophical claim - not a scientific one. If it goes further to say "Evolution disproves god because, if a god did exist, he would not choose to create life through naturalistic processes such as evolution" then it is going even further and making a theological claim by dictating what god would and would not do.

Its these philosophical and theological claims which theists take issue with - not evolution by itself. Its akin to how scientists get upset when theologians start making claims about biology and physical cosmology.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/10/15
Just cause people believe in God doesn't mean they are all ignorant to science like evolution. It seems this thread will just be a whole atheist circle jerk
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/2/15
As far as I just read that, you just stated that evolution disproves theism.

The first line of this website
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
States

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


Which means evolution disproves the existence of all possibilities of gods.

The first relevant statement of this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
States

Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.


So if I can find an example of any god in any religion that isn't about living things, you should see why evolution doesn't disprove theism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon
or better yet
Fujin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C5%ABjin
Who is a god of wind in shinto, although I admittedly know little of the Japanese pantheon.

So, unless changes in biological characteristics disproves a god of wind, there's no reason evolution disproves theism.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/10/15
I don't really see how belief in science ultimately has to destroy a person's belief in God. Science ultimately just describes how the different laws of nature come to play when an event happens. Anyone could argue that God started the Big Bang (assuming that its true as well) created the process of evolution to which we came from, and honestly I don't think there is really a contradiction between theism and science if you look at it that way.

Now I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that's exactly what happened. The best scientists in the world at some point used to believe the world was flat. In 20 years, the theory of evolution may be proven to be true or dis-proven completely. If it is the former, then hooray for us. if its the latter, future generations would be laughing at us for believing in it.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/10/15
Religion. Superstitious thinking in general. The culture of America that puts more trust in 2000 year old desert scribblings that give a false sense of security than it does in science, which has done more for humanity than religion ever could have hoped to do. It's pretty god damn sad forgive the expression.

That being said, there are plenty of religious people that accept evolution instead of creationism nonsense. But it's only because they made a conscious choice to really look at the facts instead of putting the god goggles on. Francis Crick is a good example.

Also, I think a lot of people subconsciously refuse to accept evolution because it then would start to make them question other aspects of their religion. So instead of moving into that potentially uncomfortable state of mind, they buckle down even more and proclaim that the bible or w/e holy book is true and science is wrong.

People don't really understand science either. And it's no wonder why. I don't think half of the public schools even teach evolution or spend adequate time on it and certainly it is not taught what the scientific method is enough. That's why so many idiots say "Well it's just a theory," when a theory is a well established scientific principle backed up by mountains of experiments and data pointing in one direction to the same conclusion. Anyway… I could go on, but I think my point has been made.
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/10/15
The tides roll in.....the tides roll out......the sun goes up.....the sun goes down.....you can't explain that!
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/7/15

GayAsianBoy wrote:

The ones that do accept Evolution would claim that the deity orchestrated the process; but the problem with that notion is that... in their bible, it said the Earth came before the Sun, so... how the hell did plants photosynthesise on Earth without the Sun?? :S


I believe in God, spiritual reality, and an afterlife. I also believe in the big bang and evolution. The bible tells an origin story about the earth, cosmos, and life on earth, but God, who inspired the words of the bible, had to tell people something they could understand. Some Christians who agree with much of science believe that, well, could God really try and explain to people in the bronze age things like evolution, the big bang, atoms and molecules, and so forth, in just some short, written passages? If he tried to do that, he'd just confuse the heck out of so many people, and it would deter people from things considered more important to him. It was the bronze age. If God was a teacher trying to communicate to some grade schoolers, would he take on the role of a professor at a university and go over material that is way over their heads?
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/7/15
Is this another one of those "theism equals contemporary Christianity, and Agnostics don't exist" stances?

EDIT

Also, I can name six Agnostic scientists who made contributions to the science of evolution: Stephen Jay Gould, J. B. S. Haldane, Alfred Russel Wallace, Walter Frank Raphael Weldon, George Gaylord Simpson, and even Charles Darwin.

Insulting non-Athiests and setting the evolutionary theory on a silver pedestal? I suggest holding your tongue, instead.
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Posted 5/21/14
Part of the reason is what people have already stated.

but from my perspective, most people see God as a higher being, as something that is pure and perfect. Most people accept that the stories in the bible are just stories. I think God is real in the sense that God has an affect on society. (Obviously) God is a real influence in the world because people believe it to be. I find that most people who believe in a God, generally believe that someone is looking out for us, which is very comforting to know, and they also believe that whatever pain they're suffering now on Earth will be for a "greater" good. I believe that religion can be seem as a coping mechanism to get through the suffering and the mundanity of everyday life.

I don't believe in any of the religions out there today, however if I had to pick one it would be something along the lines of Buddhism or Hinduism. I believe that there is a higher power out there, something that we could never explain with science, but it would be like "force" of nature, with no real conscience. (Like gravity or electromagnetism.)
Phersu 
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Posted 5/21/14 , edited 1/2/15

maelstrom1911 wrote:

I don't really see how belief in science ultimately has to destroy a person's belief in God. Science ultimately just describes how the different laws of nature come to play when an event happens. Anyone could argue that God started the Big Bang (assuming that its true as well) created the process of evolution to which we came from, and honestly I don't think there is really a contradiction between theism and science if you look at it that way.

Now I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that's exactly what happened. The best scientists in the world at some point used to believe the world was flat. In 20 years, the theory of evolution may be proven to be true or dis-proven completely. If it is the former, then hooray for us. if its the latter, future generations would be laughing at us for believing in it.


Except no, no scientist really thought that. It is a myth. There was never a period of history where educated people actually believed that. Or rather, if there was, it was in B.C. time. Way, way back. A more accurate analogy would be how people used to believe that the universe was geocentric instead of heliocentric.

I have no problem with your statement. Merely your analogy. Hurray.
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Posted 5/21/14
Tradition: people are brought up to believe such things and never come to question/challenge it.
Fear: non-existence is a scary thing. Many people take comfort in believing that there is something after death.
And of course, some people genuinely believe.
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