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Posted 6/5/14 , edited 6/5/14

outerheaven139 wrote:


crazykl45 wrote:


outerheaven139 wrote:

Those pictures made me laugh so fucking hard, thanks


I feel like those feminist protests like that one on the picture are some self-absorbed "first world problems", if you wanna fight for women's rights, go where it's needed, at the Middle East where some countries allow rapists to marry their victim instead of facing charges, if anything Western society puts women on a pedestal, so i feel like you're just being a silly goose by protesting about stupid shit like being aggressively hit on looked at as a lesser specie, that's just a douchebag problem, a guy with that mentality isn't an asshole JUST to women, he's probably like that in all aspects of his life.

I think this is a pretty fair criticism. A lot of the social critiques internet feminists generate seem to be about trivial problems without much impact (i.e. it's basically blogging).

In general, I think every philosophy has to deal with the question of its own value. Maybe it's just a sign the feminists out there haven't done a good job of advocating for their cause. Maybe they don't have achievable goals. Who knows. I will say that the economists at least get one thing. You're not going to bring people to your side and get them to do what you want without appealing to their self interest. Maybe the same logic should apply to these sorts of social movements?



Yeah pretty much what you said, they don't have important stuff to be angry about, so they end up nitpicking on retarded shit.

And i honestly don't follow feminism that close to tell you if they're actually accomplishing anything, even because it's not a specific group, in my opinion it became a " cool" status amongst women, i just don't see any of them fighting for women's right in oppresive countries, i think it's just poeple being people, much like people that always complain about their country's political situation but they won't even bother to vote, i'm not saying you HAVE to be an active fighting member of a cause to voice your opinion about it, but jesus christ, when are you ever going to accomplish anything by having twitter battles, i've seen some girls on facebook taking pictures with their tits out saying " #YesAllWomen", what is being accomplished there exactly ? you're just giving dudes fap material, i think they should be pressing their local politicians to sign bills or spread some awareness about locations where women actually suffer.

Yeah, I just wanted to take the sentiment you had a rephrase a bit.

I should say, I like the act of social critique and it's often quite powerful when done well. I'm not sure what comes out of tumblr is that powerful or compelling, or even useful enough a critique.

I've often thought that Feminism grew out of Marxism, or at least borrowed what academics call the "dialectical method." It would be a breath of fresh air to read a post or an argument that had some inkling of that method in their critiques. I know some of the older feminist literature probably has it, but it's not anywhere to be found in what's on the net right now. And it's a shame, because it makes it seem like these social/political movements lack substance when they can't even absorb the past methods.

When compared to most of the prominent net philosophies, I'm not a big fan of the Austrian economics I read, but at least the guys on the net who adhere go out and read Rothbard and Von Mises and make coherent statements. Atheists though need to go back and read more than what Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett have to say...

Edit:
Basically, I'm saying I can tell very few people seem to study anymore, and it does no good for feminism as a movement. The "authentic feminists" out there ought to put a worthwhile book or two in the hands of everyone else who claims to be feminist and explain how the big picture of the book works. Then maybe we might get better thoughts/arguments.
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Posted 6/6/14

outerheaven139 wrote:

Yeah pretty much what you said, they don't have important stuff to be angry about, so they end up nitpicking on retarded shit.


There's a significant gap in the earnings of men and women in the same occupation across a variety of industries in the United States. I would consider that to be an important problem. Wouldn't you?

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2011/ted_20110216.htm


...i just don't see any of them fighting for women's right in oppresive countries...


Here's an example of an international entity which is designed to address just those sorts of problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Women


i think they should be pressing their local politicians to sign bills or spread some awareness about locations where women actually suffer.


That is already happening worldwide. Looking back at UN Women for a moment, specifically the executive board's composition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Women#Current_Executive_Board_composition

For any given country on that list there is a significant popular interest in women's issues at the international level. It is reasonable to infer that some executive member states are present in order to protect their own status quo (such as Saudi Arabia), but it's also reasonable to infer that other executive member states (such as the US, the UK, Sweden, Australia, Liechtenstein, Iceland, New Zealand, and Norway) would be aiming to alter that status quo. Who, if not those interested in advancing women's rights abroad in the latter group of countries, would have influenced those governments to seek membership in UN Women's executive board?
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Posted 6/6/14 , edited 6/6/14

BlueOni wrote:


outerheaven139 wrote:

Yeah pretty much what you said, they don't have important stuff to be angry about, so they end up nitpicking on retarded shit.


There's a significant gap in the earnings of men and women in the same occupation across a variety of industries in the United States. I would consider that to be an important problem. Wouldn't you?

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2011/ted_20110216.htm


I would agree this looks like an important domestic social issue. Why does it exist is the question? I don't buy the different job choices or other stuff I read from people trying to bust up this as a myth. But the reverse course of explanation seems to be to blanket everyone in a "veil of discrimination." That's a bit of a harder pill to swallow.
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Posted 6/6/14 , edited 6/6/14



There's a significant gap in the earnings of men and women in the same occupation across a variety of industries in the United States. I would consider that to be an important problem. Wouldn't you?


The world doesn't revolve around the United States, i know a lot of companies also that have women in charge receiving as much money as men, this payment gap thing is dying off with old manners, it's a generation thing, if you feel like a company doesn't pay you enough just change companies, if you're well worth and valued there shouldn't be a problem for other people wanting to hire you.


Here's an example of an international entity which is designed to address just those sorts of problems


I never said there isn't any entity that fights for women's right at the UN, i meant that i don't see day to day "facebook" feminists addressing those issues or even talking about it, most of the ones i talk to complain about first world problems type stuff.


That is already happening worldwide. Looking back at UN Women for a moment, specifically the executive board's composition


Again, you're showing me that this entity does that, but for example, most of the women at this and other feminist threads didn't even touch the subject, that's what i mean, i think at this point it became this social status, this " cool" thing to be, to be angry and yell at men in general, but i guess i'm being redundant here because all causes have its true meaning dumbed down when it comes to the masses, especially masses using social media.


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Posted 6/6/14
Damn the political corretness, I am going to say it how it is. I am all for equal rights, but the blanket 'all men are to blame' mentality from some of the extremists is really getting annoying. I am glad to say I have seen more and more women calling bs on some of these women extremists that are fighting not for equality but for superiority. (i.e. this or that is messed up bc women should be running the show bc studies show that they are superior to men in the regard to x, y, z)
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Posted 6/6/14
There's a significant gap in the earnings of men and women in the same occupation across a variety of industries in the United States. I would consider that to be an important problem. Wouldn't you?

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2011/ted_20110216.htm

Sure it is a problem. These problems affect men as well, in today's age most of us have mothers, sisters, and daughters that need to help pay the bills too. I often only see complaints about these problems, but a lack of ideas for some real solutions. Yes, we want a bill for equal pay, good, great. How is this going to be carried out, how do you prove that there is wide spread discrimination in a given business? How do you level the playing field? (lawsuits on a case by case basis, wage floors, etc.) Does the data take into effect extra time taken off during childcare? Is it the business' responsiblity to address maturnity leave or should that be a benefit from the government? I keep hearing things about we are going to pass an equal pay bill, but the media and women fighting for such things need to start getting out there and tell us (men, rest of the population in general) how would this be accomplished and I think more people would get on board.

Well that's my two cents

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Posted 6/6/14
Just another group of sexist pigs.
Acting out of spite won't even anything out and tipping the balance won't promote equality.
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Posted 6/8/14

outerheaven139 wrote:

The world doesn't revolve around the United States...


Which country or group of countries were you referring to when you stated that feminists there have no legitimate issues to address whatsoever?


...i know a lot of companies also that have women in charge receiving as much money as men...


There are indeed such firms, but what you're looking at is individual data points. The data in aggregate paint a much more troubling picture:



To which industries do the firms you've mentioned belong?


....this payment gap thing is dying off with old manners, it's a generation thing...


I'd like to see this sourced.


...if you feel like a company doesn't pay you enough just change companies, if you're well worth and valued there shouldn't be a problem for other people wanting to hire you.


It is at this point that I'd like to remind you that the data I cited was represented by industry.



I think you've missed my larger point, which is that even despite the people you're complaining about, even despite the silence you've witnessed, significant steps are being made for addressing women's issues (to include in locations where women are thoroughly repressed). The problem isn't a lack of meaningful feminism and substantive causes, it's a lack of exposure to meaningful feminism on your part as a result of your admitted inattention.

It's sort of like you're standing at a cliff, and instead of looking at the scenic view you're looking at the ground. Then you complain that you're seeing too much ground and not enough view. Look up!
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Posted 6/9/14

tf2pyros wrote:

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women."

That is the general definition of a feminist. Although, if you've stuck around the bush and not under a rock, many cases of feminism include very troubling causes that blame the men, and not for the "equality" the women are "fighting for". Lets just classify this as "modern feminism". The majority of feminists today are a horrific group of women who will point fingers at just about every single male who has testicles for the troubles in the world, minor incidents that include women, or anything in between. Yes, men do horrible things. Men commit crimes and rape other people, both female and male, and get involved in terrifying things. That is just seeing one whole side of the fence though. Women too, commit crimes. Rape other people, (believe it or not, come on now), and get involved in terrifying acts. Extreme modern feminists believe that the male gender is the blame to "all of everything". They want the male population to be the dry wine when you wanted sweet wine.

What they shun away from though, is the fact that women cause more domestic violence than men nowadays. Actually, 70% of domestic violence is from women against men. Article from Harvard, http://newscastmedia.com/domestic-violence.htm

Modern feminism to the extreme can sometimes get... well, extreme. Some clearly obscene cases included a feminist in Australia claiming that bike helmets were sexist and "forces women to have helmet hair". Feminists getting flustered because Google hires more "white men more than anything". It's not on gender or color, it's all on smarts. Lastly, they even have rallies of sorts, topless, and scribbled on their bodies or a sign, "Still not asking for it". Are you kidding me?



To save room, that's just an example. There can be many concerns over this picture, and I won't go into detail. I can just say, in my honest opinion, that's not a "smart" way of handling this so-called cause. Breasts since the day of man were, and still are, considered sacred basically. We live in a society and it's the norm. Hell, it's been the norm. We wear clothing for a reason. Men protect their genitals, as woman protect theirs.

You'd mind as well just wear these clothes then...


Much of the info was from a gathered source. View at your pleasure for even more knowledge:
https://www.facebook.com/ExposingFeminism

What is your thought on feminists?



This post seems like a bit of a trainwreck.

You started off with the general definition of feminism & that's correct! It's about boosting women up to have equality to men. Sometimes it can seem like they're more focused on moving women forward, & not moving both men AND women forward. This is a quick way to explain why:



Please don't make up a term like 'modern feminists' to describe women who hate men. This is cruel to actual feminists. Don't get confused - a lot of women will make anti-male statements & slap 'feminist' on their forehead. Be warned. These are not feminists.

Women, by the way, are responsible for causing 40% of domestic violence, not 70%.


in a … survey taken by the CDC in 2010, it was found that 40% of the victims of severe, physical domestic violence are men.


Source - http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/men-the-overlooked-victims-of-domestic-violence/

I was perfectly content to debate this politely - but then you victim blamed, & that's disgusting. It is NEVER okay to rape someone. (By the way - your stupid little macro image of Moneybags over there doesn't prove much. Mugging someone is STILL a crime.

Let me just make this clear -

RAPE IS NEVER THE VICTIMS FAULT. RAPE IS ALWAYS CAUSED BY A RAPIST.

I sincerely hope you can come to see this. I hope that you realize, as a male, every time you make a victim-blaming statement, or continue to perpetrate rape culture as you have been, you're losing the trust of a woman in your life who overhears it. They won't say anything, they may not argue with you - but you've marked yourself as someone they cannot come to for help if they need it. Enjoy that.
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Posted 6/9/14

galaxiias wrote:

I, for one, just want equality for everyone. I do classify myself as a feminist, because in order to gain equality, I need equality for myself. But I don't shame men. I only shame them, for example, if they sexually harass women and say it's her fault when she's clearly innocent. And use the "boys will be boys" excuse. That is clearly a BS no-no.


THIS is what an actual feminist looks like. Don't try to shame us because of a few women with dark ideals slapping the word 'feminist' on themselves.
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Posted 6/9/14

Renegatz wrote:

Not interested in a 'Men's Rights' circlejerk, my girlfriend is a feminist and all it really leads to are some fun discussions every now and then and the odd joke. You'll seriously need to source your claim that most of them hold extremist beliefs. Until then don't go getting your panties in a twist because some pictures on the internet frightened you that the "feminazis" are after your gonads.




I feel like a lot of groups that are anti-feminist are just there because they can't tell the difference between being an oppressed gender & having someone hurt your feelings on the internet.
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Posted 6/9/14

kevz_210 wrote:



Well that's my two cents


And a good two cents it is, one which takes into account the complexity of the issue. I have no easy answer for the issue of income disparity, but I do know that legislation mandating equal pay is insufficient on its own. Ultimately the cultural underpinnings of discriminatory thinking and behavior themselves must be engaged and modified. Part of doing that is to simply increase awareness that discrimination is happening to begin with.

Outer Heaven may be right, a broad majority of people may have embraced the idea that disparate pay between males and females doing an equal amount of the same work is wrong. I'd be delighted to see that such is the case, because my argument that exposure is the key to combating discrimination depends on Outer Heaven being right about that.
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Posted 6/14/14

Syndicaidramon wrote:

I see some people in this thread have a depressingly hard time differentiating between actual, true feminism and the modern tumblr feminism (feminazism)...


Indeed. I was trying to aim for the more "modern feminism".
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Posted 6/14/14 , edited 6/14/14

outerheaven139 wrote:
I feel like those feminist protests like that one on the picture are some self-absorbed "first world problems", if you wanna fight for women's rights, go where it's needed, at the Middle East where some countries allow rapists to marry their victim instead of facing charges, if anything Western society puts women on a pedestal, so i feel like you're just being a silly goose by protesting about stupid shit like being aggressively hit on looked at as a lesser specie, that's just a douchebag problem, a guy with that mentality isn't an asshole JUST to women, he's probably like that in all aspects of his life.


Ya know...I really despise this particular argument against domestic activism. Why? Well...I just heard yesterday that there's a civilization of humanoids living on the planet Iscandar in the Large Magellanic Cloud about 50 kiloparsecs (163k light years) from earth. They are being wiped out through a genocidal war instituted by the Gamilas, a similar species that lives on a sister planet just a few hundred thousand miles away that orbits Iscandar.

Yes, of course that was absolutely made-up bs and an extreme example, albeit based on a certain anime and real galaxy (if you get the reference you get a cookie) but I think you get my point. If such an issue actually did exist in an extraterrestrial species like this, considering how difficult it would be to get there, even if we just invented Alcubierre warp drives (there's some physicists actually throwing around ideas about those particular drives at NASA right now albeit they're missing the crucial ingredient of "negative mass" lol) that would make the travel time less than a year, would you do anything? Probably not as you couldn't afford to go there to help. Same principle lies with people dealing primarily with domestic American issues. Yeah there's bs going on in the middle east, but going over there is dangerous and we have already complaints and business here, so why go over there. Most people can't afford to do so anyway. Plus mind you we all live permanently in our own bubble, aka our minds and bodies, and are thus all somewhat egocentric and desire to improve our particular bubble. Get over it, it's human nature.

Also...


randommangaguy wrote:

70% domestic violence? where do you get your stats, reddit? are we deliberately ignoring the fact that all women after marriage automatically become servants? yeah I'm talking about what people find diffcult to admit... who does all the household chores? for you it's a given fact that women have to take care of them, right? it's very sad that even women take it as a given duty, besides, even if your stats were 50% accurate, they're applied only to western countries, in many middle-east countries female individuals are treated like house pets, used only to give birth to kids, forced to completely hide themselves from society and from men's sight, allowed to talk only to their possessive husband or parents.


Damn what kind of house did you grow up in? I mean yeah, I do live in the liberal NYC suburbs but seriously, my mom and dad both did an equal amount of chores when they were married and we all lived together...this may be true in a large percentage of cases in the US, but I highly doubt the word ALL would apply here at all. In fact, I doubt the word "majority" would apply either in the US.
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Posted 6/14/14


Uchuu Senkan Yamato ? i haven't seen that since i was 11, thanks for the nostalgia blast ... I'm not saying people have to fly to the Middle East, but maybe help passing some bills, share articles that spread awareness on the subject, i agree with you that some people don't have the time or resources to do something drastic, but i would bet that a lot of people that get offended and white knight about feminism are doing it for social purposes or to ease their conscience, hell, i know guys that became feminist just to get laid.
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