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'in the Light Novel....'
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Posted 6/8/14 , edited 6/8/14

LoomyTheBrew wrote:



If it servery cripples the plot then I think the readers have every right to complain because they know what it could have been. For some animes it's different than others, but I think readers should express their discontent since leaving at some key aspects can really undermine the series.

An example of an adaption that hasn't included every bit of detail, but still does a good job is Magic High School. From what I hear from the LN readers is that they leave out some details, but for the most part it doesn't really effect the overall experience and it's still pretty damn good.

And depending on what Brynhildr does tomorrow, that will be an example of a show that cripples a series by cutting out too much content and go for an original ending (I couldn't help myself bringing this one up).


Let's say there's two people, 'A' and 'B'

A has read the book you loved it, something A loved in the book is missing and you talk at length about what is missing and how terrible it is it's missing.

B on the other hand, haven't read the book and didn't know anything was missing. Now B has read A's complaint and DO know, and it reduces B's enjoyment of the show hearing how it's a poor adaptation and they left this plot point and this conversation out.

A get to show they've read the LN and get to complain about missing something they liked, but the joy of complaint doesn't really match the lost joy of experience for B.

Sure they have the right to complain (although the complaint is meaningless), but it's unreflecting and a bit self-centered.


Edit:

MonkeysxMoo35 wrote:

It's not just the light novels but manga as well but it's called a discussion thread for a reason and we don't have a section for light novels. On top of that, the anime (in most cases) is the lowest form of material. The manga and light novels always have something that was removed or changed in the anime. A good example is Attack on Titan. Pretty much all of episode 25 didn't happen quite the same way it did in the manga. People just like to compare because they can spot the differences between the source material and the other version


It's called 'anime discussion' though :p Also, there's a 'Manga' section and a 'books and comics' section.

I get that the other sections don't get any traffic, kind of like how the show-specific subforums (which would be another good place to have those discussions) don't get any traffic to speak of, and I get that people want to have the conversation where there will be responses, and an actual conversation.

Still, as has been said, the changes discussions tend to stray into accidental minor spoilers a LOT, and the complaints about unfaithful adaptations (imo) just darken the whole convesration.
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Posted 6/8/14
Exactly why I dropped outta threads of the shows I was following.


Spoiler tags aren't fool proof, sometimes ya might accidentally click on it going to the "quote" button to reply to someone, or forget to scroll using arrow keys and hit one.


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Posted 6/8/14 , edited 6/8/14

AsahinaInu wrote:


JadeAmberTwins wrote:

Its funny because I typically find myself getting more annoyed at people who insult a series without ever touching its source material and making full judgements on the series based on that, even if the adaptation is bad and the fanbase hates it. An example of this is when Steins;Gate came out people were going "Oh wow, there's a sister series to this well it must be just as HOLY WAS THAT BAD. Chaos;Head is sh*t and doesn't deserve to be tied to Steins;Gate" Chaos;Head is not perfect by any means but it was still a pretty good VN and just seeing people utterly rip into made me pretty mad cause... it didn't deserve it. By all means the anime is bad but people weren't just insulting the anime they were insulting the series as a whole and like I said it didn't deserve it.
You get a similar response if you parallel Higurashi and Umineko. Its quite common for people to fall head over heels for the Higurashi anime, and then go 'bleh' in response to watching the Umineko anime, which is understandable considering the somewhat botched attempt at trying to adapt such a complicated work. However when they blanket rate the two series as a whole as great/terrible its really kind of sad because when you talk to fans of the original source material, many fans consider the Umineko Sound Novel to be the superior of the two.

I understand not everyone wants to bother with anything but the anime version of things, which is perfectly cool, but it irks me a bit when people judge the entire work from the anime 'performance' of the original script. Kind of like people judging one of Shakespeares works based on a poor amateur performance of it.



Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.


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Posted 6/8/14

LindaCicada wrote:
Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.



This a fact.
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LindaCicada wrote:

Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.
You know that was intentional right? The whole point of Umineko, from the very beginning, was to have a story that could only be understood by those who have read it and thought about it. The last episode was mainly about the ethics regarding the exploitation of strangers for self gratification and about empathy, as it wasn't supposed to be a 'final battle' so to speak. Most of what you were supposed to need to know to figure the mundane details of the basic story out are supposedly contained in episodes 1-4, whereas 5-8 was mainly about the why's and what nows. Ultimately all the final battles and whatnot were metaphors for the internal struggle of the people who knew the truth, and whether its right to expose the truth for its own sake when innocent people, living or dead, could be hurt in the process, all for the sake of people who just wanted gratification rather than something understandable like justice.


The story isn't actually supposed to be a mystery, in the traditional sense, anymore than it is a fantasy story. Ryukishi07 is a big fan of the classic mystery genre, but admits that the entire genre is based around rules that are just as, if not more so, non-believable as fantasy. The very codified rules of mystery can create a crutch for many, who refuse to try and think if the rules aren't followed. The amount of people who fall into the trap of treating it as a pure mystery, albeit with slightly different rules, is a bit disappointing. The story was labeled as anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy and not mystery vs fantasy for a reason. The most likely correct answer is that it is both anti-mystery and anti-fantasy. In other words the story has a rational explanation that can be reasoned out, but its going to take more than relying on codified rules of engagement to figure out. Basically treat it as a real life mystery, one that follows no arbitrary rules, rather than a mystery genre fiction. Ryukishi wanted a story where the readers didn't rely on "the word of god" to figure things out. Things like the red truth are a parody of that. Many people have a hard time reasoning this out and either view it as utter truth or complete lies, when rather that it is truth that is almost always presented out of context in order to deceive with truth, as well as obfuscate the fact that there is an immense amount of truth in the white text for those who are diligent.

Classic mystery is mostly deductive reasoning with internal unspoken rules designed to make sure that it can't stray from deductive reasoning very far, coupled with a confession at the end to wash away peoples suspicion's if they were working out a plausible alternate explanation. (The purple truth game in episode 8 was meant to showcase this style and also how easy it can be to derail such railroaded logic with simple oversight in the details.) Deductive reasoning will only get you so far in Umineko, and you have to start relying on inductive reasoning to try to piece out the most probable explanations that have the greatest explanatory ability. The fact that you have to use inductive reasoning, and the fact that many people can't differentiate deductive and inductive logic, is why there are so many different theories are out there(and why everybody thinks that they are right). Coupled with the fact that if you read, reread, think and rethink the story you can rip the guts out of these theories and work out what seems to be the most plausible. Not to mention there is a lot of philosophy that people miss out as well for being so focused on the puzzle.

There was no plot armor, as no-one in the story is at all protected from events due to happenstance.
Also there is no deus ex machina as the only plot resolutions are


Your spoiler quote is actually quite similar to what some of the goats were saying near the end of the story,
I encourage you to read the story again sometime and keep thinking about it. Its one of the few 'mystery' novels out there that actually get better the more you read it. I assure you there are probably many things you will take differently reading it through again. For instance just going through the first episode again...


Basically there is plenty of stuff to be had from rereading the story.
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Posted 6/9/14
It really doesn't bother me unless they're going out of their way to spoil it or being really obnoxious about what they know that we don't know.
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Posted 6/9/14

AsahinaInu wrote:


LindaCicada wrote:

Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.
You know that was intentional right? The whole point of Umineko, from the very beginning, was to have a story that could only be understood by those who have read it and thought about it. The last episode was mainly about the ethics regarding the exploitation of strangers for self gratification and about empathy, as it wasn't supposed to be a 'final battle' so to speak. Most of what you were supposed to need to know to figure the mundane details of the basic story out are supposedly contained in episodes 1-4, whereas 5-8 was mainly about the why's and what nows. Ultimately all the final battles and whatnot were metaphors for the internal struggle of the people who knew the truth, and whether its right to expose the truth for its own sake when innocent people, living or dead, could be hurt in the process, all for the sake of people who just wanted gratification rather than something understandable like justice.


The story isn't actually supposed to be a mystery, in the traditional sense, anymore than it is a fantasy story. Ryukishi07 is a big fan of the classic mystery genre, but admits that the entire genre is based around rules that are just as, if not more so, non-believable as fantasy. The very codified rules of mystery can create a crutch for many, who refuse to try and think if the rules aren't followed. The amount of people who fall into the trap of treating it as a pure mystery, albeit with slightly different rules, is a bit disappointing. The story was labeled as anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy and not mystery vs fantasy for a reason. The most likely correct answer is that it is both anti-mystery and anti-fantasy. In other words the story has a rational explanation that can be reasoned out, but its going to take more than relying on codified rules of engagement to figure out. Basically treat it as a real life mystery, one that follows no arbitrary rules, rather than a mystery genre fiction. Ryukishi wanted a story where the readers didn't rely on "the word of god" to figure things out. Things like the red truth are a parody of that. Many people have a hard time reasoning this out and either view it as utter truth or complete lies, when rather that it is truth that is almost always presented out of context in order to deceive with truth, as well as obfuscate the fact that there is an immense amount of truth in the white text for those who are diligent.

Classic mystery is mostly deductive reasoning with internal unspoken rules designed to make sure that it can't stray from deductive reasoning very far, coupled with a confession at the end to wash away peoples suspicion's if they were working out a plausible alternate explanation. (The purple truth game in episode 8 was meant to showcase this style and also how easy it can be to derail such railroaded logic with simple oversight in the details.) Deductive reasoning will only get you so far in Umineko, and you have to start relying on inductive reasoning to try to piece out the most probable explanations that have the greatest explanatory ability. The fact that you have to use inductive reasoning, and the fact that many people can't differentiate deductive and inductive logic, is why there are so many different theories are out there(and why everybody thinks that they are right). Coupled with the fact that if you read, reread, think and rethink the story you can rip the guts out of these theories and work out what seems to be the most plausible. Not to mention there is a lot of philosophy that people miss out as well for being so focused on the puzzle.

There was no plot armor, as no-one in the story is at all protected from events due to happenstance.
Also there is no deus ex machina as the only plot resolutions are


Your spoiler quote is actually quite similar to what some of the goats were saying near the end of the story,
I encourage you to read the story again sometime and keep thinking about it. Its one of the few 'mystery' novels out there that actually get better the more you read it. I assure you there are probably many things you will take differently reading it through again. For instance just going through the first episode again...


Basically there is plenty of stuff to be had from rereading the story.


So you're saying that Battler and Ange beat Rika before the fight even began? thats stupid, Rika was way more powerful than both of them combined. And dont get me wrong, I loved Umineko, I was just very dissapointed by the ending, and how everytime Battler beat Erika or Rika, it was because he suddenly 'came back to life' with some stupid new power. My fav thing about Umineko is trying to figure out why Bernkastel (gonna keep calling her Rika, cuz her witch name sucks) is 'evil' and what her motive is (im actually writing a fanfic on this, using my theories)
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Posted 6/9/14

LindaCicada wrote:


AsahinaInu wrote:


JadeAmberTwins wrote:

Its funny because I typically find myself getting more annoyed at people who insult a series without ever touching its source material and making full judgements on the series based on that, even if the adaptation is bad and the fanbase hates it. An example of this is when Steins;Gate came out people were going "Oh wow, there's a sister series to this well it must be just as HOLY WAS THAT BAD. Chaos;Head is sh*t and doesn't deserve to be tied to Steins;Gate" Chaos;Head is not perfect by any means but it was still a pretty good VN and just seeing people utterly rip into made me pretty mad cause... it didn't deserve it. By all means the anime is bad but people weren't just insulting the anime they were insulting the series as a whole and like I said it didn't deserve it.
You get a similar response if you parallel Higurashi and Umineko. Its quite common for people to fall head over heels for the Higurashi anime, and then go 'bleh' in response to watching the Umineko anime, which is understandable considering the somewhat botched attempt at trying to adapt such a complicated work. However when they blanket rate the two series as a whole as great/terrible its really kind of sad because when you talk to fans of the original source material, many fans consider the Umineko Sound Novel to be the superior of the two.

I understand not everyone wants to bother with anything but the anime version of things, which is perfectly cool, but it irks me a bit when people judge the entire work from the anime 'performance' of the original script. Kind of like people judging one of Shakespeares works based on a poor amateur performance of it.



Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.







AsahinaInu wrote:


LindaCicada wrote:

Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.
You know that was intentional right? The whole point of Umineko, from the very beginning, was to have a story that could only be understood by those who have read it and thought about it. The last episode was mainly about the ethics regarding the exploitation of strangers for self gratification and about empathy, as it wasn't supposed to be a 'final battle' so to speak. Most of what you were supposed to need to know to figure the mundane details of the basic story out are supposedly contained in episodes 1-4, whereas 5-8 was mainly about the why's and what nows. Ultimately all the final battles and whatnot were metaphors for the internal struggle of the people who knew the truth, and whether its right to expose the truth for its own sake when innocent people, living or dead, could be hurt in the process, all for the sake of people who just wanted gratification rather than something understandable like justice.


The story isn't actually supposed to be a mystery, in the traditional sense, anymore than it is a fantasy story. Ryukishi07 is a big fan of the classic mystery genre, but admits that the entire genre is based around rules that are just as, if not more so, non-believable as fantasy. The very codified rules of mystery can create a crutch for many, who refuse to try and think if the rules aren't followed. The amount of people who fall into the trap of treating it as a pure mystery, albeit with slightly different rules, is a bit disappointing. The story was labeled as anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy and not mystery vs fantasy for a reason. The most likely correct answer is that it is both anti-mystery and anti-fantasy. In other words the story has a rational explanation that can be reasoned out, but its going to take more than relying on codified rules of engagement to figure out. Basically treat it as a real life mystery, one that follows no arbitrary rules, rather than a mystery genre fiction. Ryukishi wanted a story where the readers didn't rely on "the word of god" to figure things out. Things like the red truth are a parody of that. Many people have a hard time reasoning this out and either view it as utter truth or complete lies, when rather that it is truth that is almost always presented out of context in order to deceive with truth, as well as obfuscate the fact that there is an immense amount of truth in the white text for those who are diligent.

Classic mystery is mostly deductive reasoning with internal unspoken rules designed to make sure that it can't stray from deductive reasoning very far, coupled with a confession at the end to wash away peoples suspicion's if they were working out a plausible alternate explanation. (The purple truth game in episode 8 was meant to showcase this style and also how easy it can be to derail such railroaded logic with simple oversight in the details.) Deductive reasoning will only get you so far in Umineko, and you have to start relying on inductive reasoning to try to piece out the most probable explanations that have the greatest explanatory ability. The fact that you have to use inductive reasoning, and the fact that many people can't differentiate deductive and inductive logic, is why there are so many different theories are out there(and why everybody thinks that they are right). Coupled with the fact that if you read, reread, think and rethink the story you can rip the guts out of these theories and work out what seems to be the most plausible. Not to mention there is a lot of philosophy that people miss out as well for being so focused on the puzzle.

There was no plot armor, as no-one in the story is at all protected from events due to happenstance.
Also there is no deus ex machina as the only plot resolutions are


Your spoiler quote is actually quite similar to what some of the goats were saying near the end of the story,
I encourage you to read the story again sometime and keep thinking about it. Its one of the few 'mystery' novels out there that actually get better the more you read it. I assure you there are probably many things you will take differently reading it through again. For instance just going through the first episode again...


Basically there is plenty of stuff to be had from rereading the story.





LindaCicada wrote:


AsahinaInu wrote:


LindaCicada wrote:

Higurashi>Umineko, even in terms of VN's imo. They were both excellent tho.
You know that was intentional right? The whole point of Umineko, from the very beginning, was to have a story that could only be understood by those who have read it and thought about it. The last episode was mainly about the ethics regarding the exploitation of strangers for self gratification and about empathy, as it wasn't supposed to be a 'final battle' so to speak. Most of what you were supposed to need to know to figure the mundane details of the basic story out are supposedly contained in episodes 1-4, whereas 5-8 was mainly about the why's and what nows. Ultimately all the final battles and whatnot were metaphors for the internal struggle of the people who knew the truth, and whether its right to expose the truth for its own sake when innocent people, living or dead, could be hurt in the process, all for the sake of people who just wanted gratification rather than something understandable like justice.


The story isn't actually supposed to be a mystery, in the traditional sense, anymore than it is a fantasy story. Ryukishi07 is a big fan of the classic mystery genre, but admits that the entire genre is based around rules that are just as, if not more so, non-believable as fantasy. The very codified rules of mystery can create a crutch for many, who refuse to try and think if the rules aren't followed. The amount of people who fall into the trap of treating it as a pure mystery, albeit with slightly different rules, is a bit disappointing. The story was labeled as anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy and not mystery vs fantasy for a reason. The most likely correct answer is that it is both anti-mystery and anti-fantasy. In other words the story has a rational explanation that can be reasoned out, but its going to take more than relying on codified rules of engagement to figure out. Basically treat it as a real life mystery, one that follows no arbitrary rules, rather than a mystery genre fiction. Ryukishi wanted a story where the readers didn't rely on "the word of god" to figure things out. Things like the red truth are a parody of that. Many people have a hard time reasoning this out and either view it as utter truth or complete lies, when rather that it is truth that is almost always presented out of context in order to deceive with truth, as well as obfuscate the fact that there is an immense amount of truth in the white text for those who are diligent.

Classic mystery is mostly deductive reasoning with internal unspoken rules designed to make sure that it can't stray from deductive reasoning very far, coupled with a confession at the end to wash away peoples suspicion's if they were working out a plausible alternate explanation. (The purple truth game in episode 8 was meant to showcase this style and also how easy it can be to derail such railroaded logic with simple oversight in the details.) Deductive reasoning will only get you so far in Umineko, and you have to start relying on inductive reasoning to try to piece out the most probable explanations that have the greatest explanatory ability. The fact that you have to use inductive reasoning, and the fact that many people can't differentiate deductive and inductive logic, is why there are so many different theories are out there(and why everybody thinks that they are right). Coupled with the fact that if you read, reread, think and rethink the story you can rip the guts out of these theories and work out what seems to be the most plausible. Not to mention there is a lot of philosophy that people miss out as well for being so focused on the puzzle.

There was no plot armor, as no-one in the story is at all protected from events due to happenstance.
Also there is no deus ex machina as the only plot resolutions are


Your spoiler quote is actually quite similar to what some of the goats were saying near the end of the story,
I encourage you to read the story again sometime and keep thinking about it. Its one of the few 'mystery' novels out there that actually get better the more you read it. I assure you there are probably many things you will take differently reading it through again. For instance just going through the first episode again...


Basically there is plenty of stuff to be had from rereading the story.


So you're saying that Battler and Ange beat Rika before the fight even began? thats stupid, Rika was way more powerful than both of them combined. And dont get me wrong, I loved Umineko, I was just very dissapointed by the ending, and how everytime Battler beat Erika or Rika, it was because he suddenly 'came back to life' with some stupid new power. My fav thing about Umineko is trying to figure out why Bernkastel (gonna keep calling her Rika, cuz her witch name sucks) is 'evil' and what her motive is (im actually writing a fanfic on this, using my theories)






Walks into thread wondering why people gotta spoil.

Encounters wall-o-text full of spoilers.

[Trolling intensifies]

Yes....yes it is, Crunchy.
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LindaCicada wrote:
So you're saying that Battler and Ange beat Rika before the fight even began? thats stupid, Rika was way more powerful than both of them combined. And dont get me wrong, I loved Umineko, I was just very dissapointed by the ending, and how everytime Battler beat Erika or Rika, it was because he suddenly 'came back to life' with some stupid new power. My fav thing about Umineko is trying to figure out why Bernkastel (gonna keep calling her Rika, cuz her witch name sucks) is 'evil' and what her motive is (im actually writing a fanfic on this, using my theories)
Naw I'm saying the fight never 'really' happened. The entire thing was a metaphor for the ethical debate on whether to release the contents of the journal. Erika and Bernkastel represent the cold hard truth and logic without any feeling or empathy behind them at all. Thus they are inherently vastly more objectively powerful than Battler and Ange's stance on the ethics and empathy regarding the scenario. However pure logic and reasoning does not always triumph when it comes to the decisions of humans, which is why Battler and Ange won. Ikuko saw that releasing the truth would harm those she loved so she didn't do it, even though it would solve a great mystery of the world. If you want to look at the battle itself, everything there was not Deus Machina at all. What ANGE did was foreshadowed in episode 4 and was her entire purpose for existing.
As to Battler's endless 9999 that was also foreshadowed way early on in the series, and was stated then that anybody that manifested it was utterly and completely immune to magic.


As to Bernkastel being 'evil', I don't think she, much like any of the other witches, actually are evil. They just happen to be complex. Which is understandable as 'witch' can be treated as a synonym for 'storyteller' or 'author' for much of the story. Author's are pretty cruel people when it comes to the pieces on their 'gameboards' after all. She was playing her part as the villain(which she explicitly stated several times) and I think in her own way was actually trying to help out. She and Erika just think people are better off not having any illusions about the truth. Basically they think its more cruel to hide a horrible truth than to expose it.

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maxgale wrote:

Walks into thread wondering why people gotta spoil.

Encounters wall-o-text full of spoilers.

[Trolling intensifies]

Yes....yes it is, Crunchy.


Welcome to psychology 100: "Don't tell me what to do!"
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Posted 6/9/14

maxgale wrote:

Walks into thread wondering why people gotta spoil.

Encounters wall-o-text full of spoilers.

[Trolling intensifies]

Yes....yes it is, Crunchy.
Umineko is reeeeaaaallly hard to spoil. Its very goal was to be written in such a way that you could even write the ending on the internet, without spoiling the mystery. I'd almost hazard a guess that putting forth observations on the series is more of a 'spoiler' to people who have read the entire series, and that just haven't seen it from a different angle, than to people who have never read it before. Even so, I tried to put any actual events, that weren't already let out of the bag, into spoiler tags. The rest is interpretations and evaluations on how it was written rather than talking directly about events in the series.

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"Year-end cleanup. Closing threads with no activity since 2014."
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