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Crossover Battle! Kirito VS Shiroe!
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Posted 6/13/14

sonic720 wrote:


MartianMage wrote:
Why even argue about it just look at the skills, factor in duration and cooldown and it's quite easy to see that logically there's no way for a pure melee to win against someone with a range cc+damage that can be recasted as soon as it ends.


What about healing? Kirito has a fast regeneration of health ability while, to my understanding, Shiroe does not nor does he have any healing magic. Shiroe even says he's helpless unless he knows his opponent well in battle. So, if they were thrown in a ring blind with no prior knowledge of each other with their particular in game stats and abilities, Shiroe would need to make the first strike with the correct ability to counter his opponent or he'd be toast.


Kirito regenerates roughly around 500hp in a few seconds as explained in Silica episode. Shiroe's TBH deals 1500 additional damage for 5 hits plus the base damage of whatever Shiroe is gonna attack with. Kirito's passive cannot outheal that. Also the fact that Kirito will never be able to land a hit. Seriously this is like basic pvp strategy.
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Posted 6/13/14

D9time wrote:


LionelJeid wrote:


MartianMage wrote:

Without admin powers Kirito will lose.

Thorn bind hostage, attack kirito 4x, wait til the last second and use the last hit from TBH, recast TBH, repeat until Shiroe wins.

Remember people... Shiroe's TBH duration is the same as it's cooldown. It is OP in 1v1 against a melee character with no ranged attacks. Any MMO pvp player should understand this very basic strategy.

It is basically what he did against Demikas.


He also had other players in that battle with Demikas...including a healer and three melee (one tank, and 2 DPS, I believe). There's no proof Shiroe wins that battle 1v1. That's even before he realizes he can break the game.

I am surprised there's even a defense for Shiroe. His specialty is team battles and seeing what others don't. He's never even had a 1v1 fight on screen that we know of, if I recall correctly.


Not to mention TBH must be cut using a melee atk (there might also be a dictation that an ally must do the atk but not 100% sure on this). If Shiroe was to get close to be able to actually cut the thorns, the amount of damage he would take from Kirito would not be worth it. Also Kirito isn't limited by CD times as if he manually performs the skills and atks he is limited only by his physical(well really mental) limits.

Shiroe's best chance would be using Nightmare Sphere lowering 80% of opponents speed and keeping his distance with simple basic magic atks since all his skills are mainly team-based or does minimal damage anyways(so best not to waist MP). But then again a skill as potent as this much have a huge CD compared to affect time.


In final, Kirito would win out between CDs b/c as every1 has stated he isn't a PvP character. He is a rear-row support character that wins through tactfully supporting the strengths of his allies


Where did you even get the idea TBH only works with melee attacks. The explanation clearly said TBH charges are used on every attack inflicted.

Also in between cooldown? What are you talking about? TBH's duration is the same as it's cooldown. There is no in-between cooldown here.
D9time 
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Posted 6/13/14
"Because this damage occurs at the same time as that inflicted by the ally's own melee attack" straight from the wiki.
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Posted 6/13/14

Without admin powers Kirito will lose.

Thorn bind hostage, attack kirito 4x, wait til the last second and use the last hit from TBH, recast TBH, repeat until Shiroe wins.

Remember people... Shiroe's TBH duration is the same as it's cooldown. It is OP in 1v1 against a melee character with no ranged attacks. Any MMO pvp player should understand this very basic strategy.

It is basically what he did against Demikas.


Someone finally sees what I see


What about healing? Kirito has a fast regeneration of health ability while, to my understanding, Shiroe does not nor does he have any healing magic. Shiroe even says he's helpless unless he knows his opponent well in battle. So, if they were thrown in a ring blind with no prior knowledge of each other with their particular in game stats and abilities, Shiroe would need to make the first strike with the correct ability to counter his opponent or he'd be toast.


Kirito's healing worried me, but then I did a little math.

80-90hp per sec = 800-900hp per 10 sec = 4800-5400 hp per minute. Kirito would need a full minute to get around 1/4 his health back. In between then, that's Shiroe's initial CC (which Kirito might break with Escape, assuming that's anti-cc), then as Kirito closes the distance, he has to deal with Thorns, 14 second duration, 5000 (any damage can break thorns) then follow up with another thorns after cooldown. That's at LEAST 10,000 damage in the FIRST 30 SECONDS! And Shiroe still has a sleep spell and an accuracy debuff to reduce/avoid damage before he has another shot.

Although Demikas was a team effort, Thorns can be broken by any type of damage, no matter how weak. Keep in mind he had three healers on him, and Thorns took away a massive chunk of his health in only a 15-16 second duration.

I was scared for Shiroe at first, but now I'm starting to think this is a very lopsided battle in his favor. And these are his spells at level 90 in the current anime.....
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Posted 6/13/14
This is one of those apples to oranges threads...
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Posted 6/13/14
You do know that wikis are hardly official, right?

And even then if Shiroe cannot use TBH charge by himself it still doesn't change the fact that there is no way Kirito can even come close to him. There is still the TBH having the same duration and cooldown problem. This is like arguing a melee character catching someone that can perma cc you.

Like I said if no admin powers or introduction of resistance to the same cc after getting hit by it once there's no way to win this logically speaking.
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Posted 6/13/14

MartianMage wrote:
Kirito regenerates roughly around 500hp in a few seconds as explained in Silica episode. Shiroe's TBH deals 1500 additional damage for 5 hits plus the base damage of whatever Shiroe is gonna attack with. Kirito's passive cannot outheal that. Also the fact that Kirito will never be able to land a hit. Seriously this is like basic pvp strategy.


The chart also says it takes 2 seconds to cast TBH, so the better questions are how far apart are they standing when the match starts and do they know anything about each other going into the match? If they are within 10 meters Kirito can also use Rage Spike and close the gap instantly, then melee to the win.

Also, Shiroe has MP limits while Kirito does not, so how much MP does Shiroe's attacks use and would he have enough to use magic to kill him from afar? Again, though, Shiroe would need to know to stay back from Kirito and know exactly what strategy to use to have an advantage. He has zero time to size Kirito up and must immediately cast his most powerful spell to have a chance assuming they come in blind to each other's abilities.
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14

Again, I would argue Shiroe cannot be killed. But his heroine is better anyways, so he wins.

The thing about Log Horizon is, the world allows them to "make up new spells". And I highly doubt it is his "most powerful spell", but the perfect spell for that current situation that he was in at that moment. Wait, is that the only spell he has? O.o
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14

sonic720
The chart also says it takes 2 seconds to cast TBH, so the better questions are how far apart are they standing when the match starts and do they know anything about each other going into the match? If they are within 10 meters Kirito can also use Rage Spike and close the gap instantly, then melee to the win.

Also, Shiroe has MP limits while Kirito does not, so how much MP does Shiroe's attacks use and would he have enough to use magic to kill him from afar? Again, though, Shiroe would need to know to stay back from Kirito and know exactly what strategy to use to have an advantage. He has zero time to size Kirito up and must immediately cast his most powerful spell to have a chance assuming they come in blind to each other's abilities.


It doesn't take 2 seconds to cast. Again refer to Demikas fight. Shiroe has items that improves TBH so his TBH > than your average TBH. Also are you implying that a great tactician like Shiroe who has many years under his belt do not have any understanding of basic 1v1 strategy? It doesn't even take pro to kite with a cc that has the same duration and cooldown.
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14
I give the edge to Kirito. Shiroe's class and abilities are ill-suited for solo play and PvP. Kirito has the advantage in player type. Shiroe is disadvantaged by MMORPG class system logic. It sucks, but MMORPG mages are handicapped in those areas.

Alot of this is certainly an "apples vs oranges" comparison, so I'll stick with the basics.
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Posted 6/13/14

bathroom64 wrote:
Again, I would argue Shiroe cannot be killed. But his heroine is better anyways, so he wins.

The thing about Log Horizon is, the world allows them to "make up new spells". And I highly doubt it is his "most powerful spell", but the perfect spell for that current situation that he was in at that moment. Wait, is that the only spell he has? O.o


I'm just going by the rules the OP has clarified, assuming neither gets their in anime system overrides. The new skills and scribing was only a result of the ET world turned real, it was not a part of the ET game or Shiroe's character before hand. His skills in that regard are limited to the ones listed. We are also assuming Kirito won't pull a Matrix dues ex and deny he's dead and ghost fight to the win either.
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14
I love how peeps are going at it in this thread about two PLOT ARMOUR OP MAIN CHARACTERS that are practically invincible, but I do love the amusement, so please do go on. Oh and Shiro would win.. they don't call him "the villain in glasses" for nothing!



But seriously.. It all depends how fast Kirito can get to Shiro in the beginning of the fight since he is a melee user. Also the distance that the two start in the beginning would determine the outcome. Shiro is a cc / support class, but his intelligence is off the chart, which he could use as his advantage. Now Kirito is OP but has no cc, just sick ass melee skills, speed and stupid morale gen. But eh... You never know... Shiro could slip and fall and LOSE IT ALL!
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14

aeb0717 wrote:

I give the edge to Kirito. Shiroe's class and abilities are ill-suited for solo play and PvP. Kirito has the advantage in player type. Shiroe is disadvantaged by MMORPG class system logic. It sucks, but MMORPG mages are handicapped in those areas.

Alot of this is certainly an "apples vs oranges" comparison, so I'll stick with the basics.


It's against the entire concept of Shiroe and the narrative of his world for him to fight alone though.

See if Kirito can get enough people for a 5v. If he can't (He can't) he's free to try anyways ><

Edit:


Brandoncarff wrote:

I love how peeps are going at it in this thread about two PLOT ARMOUR OP MAIN CHARACTERS that are practically invincible, but I do love the amusement, so please do go on. Oh and Shiro would win.. they don't call him "the villain in glasses" for nothing!



Shiroe's a weak fighter, (barring his level and gear) that's kind of the point :p


Edit2:


Which I guess is the bigger point; which world's rules are we playing by? (and I dont mean game rules).

There's no way Shiroe could ever win a 1v1 with Kirito, none.

It's also a fight that wouldn't happen, because Shiroe's not like Kirito and doesn't blindly throw himself at enemies alone.
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14
Slayer. Because Slayer always wins.
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Posted 6/13/14 , edited 6/13/14

MartianMage wrote:
It doesn't take 2 seconds to cast. Again refer to Demikas fight. Shiroe has items that improves TBH so his TBH > than your average TBH. Also are you implying that a great tactician like Shiroe who has many years under his belt do not have any understanding of basic 1v1 strategy? It doesn't even take pro to kite with a cc that has the same duration and cooldown.


Just going by the chart provided by the OP on the 2 seconds thing.

I'm saying if neither one knew anything of the other and we put them in a square ring 10 meters around Shiroe would not have enough time to think on his feet and dodge a melee attack. He'd need to have a plan in place before the match started based on knowing how his opponent fights to have the advantage in such a scenario. We are making different assumptions about what the players know of each other and their abilities I think.
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